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Author Topic: The Secrets Of Back EMF  (Read 9427 times)

alan

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2023, 04:03:01 PM »
.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2023, 11:01:02 PM by alan »

ramset

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2023, 06:15:43 PM »
Alan
Glad you understand this enuff to assume and write things about presenter ?
7 years now ?
Please teach …
or show us _your_ replication !


Too much pointing at others ….not enuff teaching/sharing!
Exactly what are you waiting for ?
Here it’s an open source forum.
Schematics etc etc ?
Many open source builders here .
Please share !


Thanks
Chet
EDIT for comment on removal of “ your personal surveillance info above”
And now modified you tube link you posted ?


Here opinions from  core members and reasons they
Moved on !


https://www.beyondunity.org/thread/public-answer-to-chris/

Perhaps best to show your own work ?


Enuff hauntings …and assumptions about others …

PLEASE share something ( anything) that can survive scrutiny and show a true gain mechanism…
Yes obviously you must have replicated video and have something which works to share ?
Please do share ..
Here we are part of open source community
Which greatly needs solutions !



« Last Edit: March 20, 2023, 11:38:57 PM by ramset »

alan

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2023, 11:02:12 PM »
ur right. my comment was just to inform regarding that vid I recently found.

Cloxxki

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2023, 02:53:40 AM »
Help me out here.
In my very limited understanding of the back EMF avenue to OU, do I understand correctly that in a perfectly efficient system with fully recovered back EMF, we'd have a COP = 2 system?
Now what efficiency might be realistically achieve in high power density solid state applications, around 95%?
Then would recovering about 15% of the available back EMF not already suffice to get a self runner with a few percent of net out, a never depleting battery that does real work, a few % of circuit flow?

Thinking in terms of equipment I read a lot about, electric cars. A Tesla car, especially the big ones, seem able to maintain about a 100 kW output (1 C discharge) for longer periods of time, at say 85-90% efficiency with battery is pre-charged.
If just a but of it's back EMF were to be recovered, this car would become a multiple kW OU station, right? Not enough to drive, but enough to provide the grid more than it would be pulling from the grid, over a typical annual usage.

I want OU to work, but if back EMF were a viable field, would we not have easily replicable setups with predictable net output by now? If someone could recover as much as 50% of the back EMF without hamper the regular output, that would turn a boring BEV into a huge power station and a total gold mine. Seems to me, if viable, a back EMF runner would be easier to build than a magnet more.

dsquared18

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2023, 03:15:26 AM »
I think Joel's point (forgive me for putting words in your mouth Joel) is that we've only been able to tap 5% of the available back EMF and this proposed new way forward might unleash 10 times more (or more) by 'filling in the gaps' if you were.

I'm interested to see how far this can be taken. It doesn't seem to have been tried before in this way and bravo to Joel for having the imagination to see this possible route.

D2

joellagace

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2023, 03:46:03 AM »
What i'm getting at is the acknowledgement that we only get typically less back and in most cases much less back if we were to only try and use the back emf spike to power a load. I don't utilize the back emf in this traditional sense. It is true my system uses back emf, but it is not the sole function at play and used in a traditonal way as we are used to experimenting with.  What makes this work is the back emf spike is only used to maintain feedback between two coils, It's used as a trigger only to cause a secondary feedback system.  its this increase in feedback we tap into. So even a "small" trigger is all that is needed to keep the feedback action going between two tuned inductance coils.

floodrod

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2023, 04:17:44 AM »
Help me out here.
In my very limited understanding of the back EMF avenue to OU, do I understand correctly that in a perfectly efficient system with fully recovered back EMF, we'd have a COP = 2 system?
Now what efficiency might be realistically achieve in high power density solid state applications, around 95%?
Then would recovering about 15% of the available back EMF not already suffice to get a self runner with a few percent of net out, a never depleting battery that does real work, a few % of circuit flow?

I want OU to work, but if back EMF were a viable field, would we not have easily replicable setups with predictable net output by now? If someone could recover as much as 50% of the back EMF without hamper the regular output, that would turn a boring BEV into a huge power station and a total gold mine. Seems to me, if viable, a back EMF runner would be easier to build than a magnet more.

Flame me if you will, but my understanding is a bit different than most.  What Joel is referring to "Back EMF" I think is inductive kickback from the collapsing field.  I think Back-EMF is something totally different.

Kickback-  I blow up a balloon then pop it.  The air I put into the balloon comes out in a bug rush.. 

Back-EMF - Picture an empty balloon inside a filled balloon.  I blow up the inner balloon and it displaces the air in the outer balloon forcing the outer balloon to expand also.  The outer balloon starts impeding you from blowing up the inner balloon.  Using the same blowing force, you can now get less air into the inner balloon with each breath. Relate this to a coil..  Quicker you pulse it, more impedance does not let your current in.

Kickback occurs from a field collapsing.  Back EMF occurs when the field grows. And Kickback is much easier to harvest. But I argue that I can indeed collect Back-EMF also.

Regarding COP 2 from Back EMF.  The way pressure / power works, I'm pretty sure the the problem comes when trying to use the incoming power.  When we take from the incoming, we get equally less displacement from Back-EMF as we took from the input.  But I continue to experiment to see if there is a way.

I do get debated on my views and told I am wrong.  So take it as you will.  I trust my own compass more than the provided map.


onepower

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2023, 06:28:15 PM »
floodrod
Quote
Flame me if you will, but my understanding is a bit different than most.  What Joel is referring to "Back EMF" I think is inductive kickback from the collapsing field.  I think Back-EMF is something totally different.

You are correct and Bemf is the same as a Cemf which is different from a kickback or inductive discharge, the terms can get confusing.

Bemf/Cemf relates to the "self-inductance" of a conductor. Simply put the current rise produces an expanding magnetic field which cuts the same conductor(s) inducing a voltage opposite to the applied voltage. Just think "self-inductance" and it makes more sense, to induce itself. In effect, the self-inductance or induced voltage always opposes the applied voltage limiting the current flow. It applies to motor/generator/transformers and it doesn't matter whether the magnetic field is expanding or contracting.

An inductive discharge/kickback is different in a number of ways. First, it normally only applies to a contracting magnetic field and more important there is no self-inductance involved in the process. Self-inductance is produced while the magnetic field is expanding but not so much while it's contracting. As well, an inductive discharge/kickback normally occurs only when a circuit is broken/opened or severely restricted in some way.

Think about that for a moment, so we increased the current, expanding the magnetic field and as it expanded it cuts the same conductors inducing a voltage in the opposite direction. So why wouldn't the same magnetic field self-induce an opposite voltage in the conductor when the field collapsed?. It's a tricky question...

The answer is that when the magnetic field is expanding it expands outward from the conductor which is the "source" of the applied current and magnetic field. However once the magnetic field is fully established it has "no source" because the circuit is opened and the field exists in a separate space outside of the conductor(s). When the now independent magnetic field does collapse inward the induced voltage is in the same direction as the former applied voltage not opposite to it like a Bemf/Cemf.

In effect, the Bemf/Cemf relates to the source voltage/current still in the circuit being self-induced. Where an inductive discharge/kickback has the voltage/current source removed thus there is no source to induce and no self-induction. In effect the collapsing magnetic field is now independent of the old source and a new source in itself.

AC





« Last Edit: March 21, 2023, 11:09:02 PM by onepower »

fxeconomist

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2023, 10:12:36 PM »
This is an interesting topic, I am also looking to use the inductive kickback in my generator project. Right now acquiring the parts, one by one...

I've been looking for days on a way to calculate that. Yes, there is a confusion between "back EMF" and "inductive kickback".

And I've seen an alternate formula to calculate back EMF voltage : https://spinningnumbers.org/a/inductor-kickback.html

Over there, it's not the time constant that matters, but an extra parameter, the actual speed of the switch.

I'll have to experiment with both as I will be designing the inductor for my generator.

I have no clue about inductor kickback power. As we use the law of induction, this is just about volts. I have no clue about the amperage output.

Hence my goal, is to add inductive kickback voltage to an amperage that is being induced inside the coil.

I have no idea if it will work. This is an eclectic, occult theory that I picked off from Dr Peter Lindemann and it seems within my skill to actually test.

But I have never felt in my life so threatened by these accursed globalists. I was forced to exit my comfort zone and get into all of this electricity and overunity, because it seems to have become a matter of life and death,
and furthermore, a matter of heaven and hell.

I don't know if what I'm doing will work. I just hope to get the two induction phenomena to fuse together into delivering both voltage and amps. That would take a heavy burden off my shoulders and I could get to the next steps in
my off grid living project.

joellagace

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2023, 11:31:37 PM »
let me explain.

In a typical electrical system, when a current flows through a coil, it generates a magnetic field around it. When the current is turned off, the magnetic field collapses, which generates a voltage spike known as a back electromotive force (EMF) in the opposite direction of the original current. This voltage spike is often seen as a nuisance and is usually suppressed using diodes or other techniques.

However, in this system, we are using this back EMF spike to our advantage by redirecting it back into the system to provide additional power. The back EMF spike is essentially a burst of electrical energy that can be captured and redirected to charge the capacitor, which is then used to trigger the induction coils again. This feedback loop allows for a continuous flow of energy, amplifying the original energy input.

When the back EMF spike is redirected back into the system, it is essentially converting energy that would have been lost as heat or other forms of energy into a usable form. This allows you to take advantage of the higher amplified amplitude energy that would otherwise be wasted. By using this feedback loop, you are essentially increasing the efficiency of the system and allowing it to output more power than what was originally put in.

It's important to note that this doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics, as the system is not creating energy out of nothing. Instead, it is redirecting and amplifying the energy that is already present in the system.

fxeconomist

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2023, 12:50:06 AM »
As long as you do not, even seemingly, violate the laws of thermodynamics, you cannot get to overunity. You just marginally improve the efficiency towards 100%.

Overunity can come only when something actually violates the laws of thermodynamics, by extracting excess energy from somewhere else (aka aether).

Of course, extracting energy from an untapped, or an unrecognized energy source by the official paradigm is akin to violating the laws of thermodynamics, even if overall may not be so.

The philosophy of this matters less. It is important to get access to OU and start using it to ensure that our freedoms won't go down the toilet. And we'd better get there sooner rather than later.

I do not look to become a recognized inventor or enlighten the masses. I realized in many years on Facebook that people cannot be enlightened regardless of the how reasonable and detailed are the explanations. I only look to get the hell out of globalist society asap, in a matter that preserves the semblance of civilization, so that I avoid the shock of getting out completely unprepared.

Am I looking to break the laws of physics ? Yes, I'm hoping for a miracle that would make it all possible, cause exiting society while having a relatively secure place to live, packed with electricity, engine power, lights, heating, fridge, grill, water, computer and in the vicinity of food would make survival a breeze compared to leaving with a backpack and no skills, and I know that will be the last resort for many of those who today just dream at a political solution.

kixoros901

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2023, 12:54:19 AM »
Back EMF is definitely one of overunity methods.

joellagace

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2023, 01:04:44 AM »
It's important to note that the concept of overunity in the sense of breaking the laws of thermodynamics is not what I am claiming. I understand and respect the laws of physics and I am not attempting to violate them.

What I am saying is that by utilizing the back EMF feedback loop and converting energy that would normally be lost as heat and other forms into usable energy, we can get more output electricity than is needed to keep the loop going. This is not a violation of the laws of physics, but rather a more efficient utilization of the energy already present in the system.

While I am not claiming to have achieved overunity in the sense of breaking the laws of thermodynamics, we are able to extract more existing energy from the system using these various methods with just a small voltage trigger to maintain the feedback loop. This allows for a sustainable and efficient use of energy, which is beneficial for both the environment and for practical applications.

dsquared18

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2023, 01:05:27 AM »
This month 'they're' saying we got it wrong about the early universe... thanks to the Webb telescope being able to see further... This forum is about being able to see further, is it not?

D2

aussiebattler

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2023, 04:53:53 AM »
In the day that I studied electrical engineering the whole purpose of back emf was to oppose the applied emf thus reducing what would otherwise be huge power requirements.
 I don't think this concept has changed