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### Author Topic: The Secrets Of Back EMF  (Read 6922 times)

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2023, 06:26:13 PM »
So, let me see if I understood the difference straight.

Say we have a circuit. To the left, power source. The center has an up/down alligned inductor. The right side has the load.

Inductor responds with a kickback that is in the same direction. If current say, flows up (+) to down (-) in an inductor, kickback current will come out from the down side, continuing the initial direction, thru the load, to return to the up side.

Am I right ?

That is correct, the current will continue to flow in the same direction through the inductor, but the voltage across the inductor inverts during the kickback cycle.

#### onepower

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1111
##### Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2023, 07:56:05 PM »
So, let me see if I understood the difference straight.
Say we have a circuit. To the left, power source. The center has an up/down alligned inductor. The right side has the load.
Inductor responds with a kickback that is in the same direction. If current say, flows up (+) to down (-) in an inductor, kickback current will come out from the down side, continuing the initial direction, thru the load, to return to the up side.
Now we replace the inductor with a capacitor.
Capacitor discharge responds with current in the opposite direction. If current flew up (+) to down  (-), capacitor discharge would flow backwards, from the up side continuing that way towards the down thru the load.

Am I right ?

We could think of it this way...

When the inductor is charging the battery pushes electrons through the inductor like so...
Battery(-)>>>electrons>>>(-)inductor(+)>>>(+)battery

The electron current through the inductor produces an expanding magnetic field which because of it's direction opposes the electron current. We call this effect "self-induction", because the expanding magnetic field is inducing the conductor which produced it. Think of the battery as an electron pump and the inductor like an electron turbine. The (-) is pressure and (+) the suction.

Then when we remove the battery or open the circuit the following happens...
electrons>>>(+)inductor(-)>>>

So why did the electrical polarity across the inductor change?, it's because the collapsing magnetic field has caused the inductor to act like an electron pump moving electrons. How do we know the inductor is now an electron pump?. Because the (-) pressure and the (+) suction have reversed. On charge it was >>>(-)inductor(+)>>> like an electron turbine and on discharge it was like an electron pump>>>(+)inductor(-)>>>.

Or maybe
On charge (-)push>>>inductor>>>pull(+)
On discharge (+)pull>>>inductor>>>push(-)

On charge, pressure>>>inductor>>>suction
On discharge, suction>>>inductor>>>pressure

When we think of the free electrons like an electric fluid in the conductor which can increase or decrease in density it makes more sense. The electron density (-)high or (+)low acts just like pressure and suction in a mechanical system. This is why electrons and "Electron Flow Notation" are important to better understand how electrical systems work.

AC

#### lancaIV

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5180
##### Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2023, 08:41:08 PM »

#### onepower

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1111
##### Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2023, 02:11:39 AM »
ChatGPT can help...

Quote
In a conductor, when a voltage difference (potential difference) is applied across its ends, it creates an electric field that exerts a force on the charge carriers. Electrons are negatively charged, so they move in the direction opposite to the conventional current flow. This movement of electrons constitutes the flow of electric current.

So, to clarify, positive charges do not actually flow in the way conventional current is described in most conductors. Instead, it's the movement of electrons (negatively charged) that creates the flow of electric current. The conventional current notation, which assumes the flow of positive charges, is a historical convention that simplifies the description of circuit behavior while not reflecting the actual movement of particles in the circuit.

The (+) charges are the Protons in the atoms, are the atoms flowing in a circuit?, well no that's absurd. Only the (-) free electrons can flow in a circuit. In my opinion this absurd notion of (+) charges flowing in a circuit is the main reason why most cannot understand electricity or free energy.

Only the free electron density and flow correspond to a hydraulic analogy. It also describes a Back Emf/inductive discharge perfectly.
The (-) is pressure or high density of electrons and (+) the suction or low density of electrons. Pressure flows from high to low.
On charge, pressure>>>inductor>>>suction
On discharge, suction>>>inductor>>>pressure
Or
On charge (-)push>>>inductor>>>pull(+)
On discharge (+)pull>>>inductor>>>push(-)

from Chat GPT...
Question: Does the negative terminal have a high electron density and the positive terminal low?

Quote
Yes, you're correct. In a typical setup, the negative terminal of a voltage source (like a battery or power supply) tends to have a higher electron density compared to the positive terminal.

Electrons are negatively charged particles, and they naturally repel each other due to their like charges. When a voltage source is connected to a conductor (such as a wire), the negative terminal provides a surplus of electrons. This surplus of electrons creates an excess negative charge at the terminal, resulting in higher electron density.

Conversely, the positive terminal of the voltage source is relatively deficient in electrons, resulting in a relative lack of electron density.
When a circuit is closed (a complete loop is formed), electrons will flow from the negative terminal of the voltage source through the circuit to the positive terminal. This flow of electrons constitutes electric current, and it's this movement of electrons that powers electrical devices and performs useful work in the circuit.

This is super important and when I made the switch to electron flow notation a couple decades ago everything just made sense. As Tesla implied, we can use simple mechanical analogies which actually work to describe electrical phenomena. Here's a clue, in Clemente Figuera's last patent he labelled the (-) terminal as the source or origin. Why only the (-) terminal?, because only the free electron density and flow can determine where the energy is within the system and where it's going.

AC

#### citfta

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1050
##### Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2023, 11:14:03 AM »
The idea of positive ion flow is not that hard to understand.  I am old enough that i learned electron flow at an early age.  About 60 years ago.  To understand positive ion flow just arrange a row of marbles across a Chinese checker board with a gap in the marbles.  The marbles represent the electrons. The gap represents a positive ion. Now take the marble that is to the left of the gap.  Move it to the right into the gap.  Now where did the hole go?  As you move each marble from the left of the gap into the gap the "electrons" are moving left to right but the holes are moving right to left.  In reality only the " electrons"  are moving but it appears the positive " ions" are also moving.  The whole idea of positive ions should be restricted to chemistry and ignored in electronics.  The positive ion theory only confuses those new to electronics.

Respectfully,
Carroll

#### Jimboot

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1406
##### Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2023, 01:37:31 PM »
The idea of positive ion flow is not that hard to understand.  I am old enough that i learned electron flow at an early age.  About 60 years ago.  To understand positive ion flow just arrange a row of marbles across a Chinese checker board with a gap in the marbles.  The marbles represent the electrons. The gap represents a positive ion. Now take the marble that is to the left of the gap.  Move it to the right into the gap.  Now where did the hole go?  As you move each marble from the left of the gap into the gap the "electrons" are moving left to right but the holes are moving right to left.  In reality only the " electrons"  are moving but it appears the positive " ions" are also moving.  The whole idea of positive ions should be restricted to chemistry and ignored in electronics.  The positive ion theory only confuses those new to electronics.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Everything about electron flow confuses me. Especially after looking at experiments when using an electron beam dismisses the theory of flow and explains the mechanism as spin. Which intuitively makes more sense to me. Regarding the subject of this topic I'm building Transverse Flux Generators/Motors to explore the negation of lenz in this arrangement.

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2023, 02:30:20 PM »
Everything about electron flow confuses me. Especially after looking at experiments when using an electron beam dismisses the theory of flow and explains the mechanism as spin. Which intuitively makes more sense to me. Regarding the subject of this topic I'm building Transverse Flux Generators/Motors to explore the negation of lenz in this arrangement.

I wonder if an EMF would be produced in the coil if you drilled a hole in the center of the core pieces, and passed the wire through the holes, instead of having the coil sitting in the C part of the core pieces.

Never came across these Transverse Flux Generators/Motors before. should be interesting to see the outcome.

#### onepower

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1111
##### Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2023, 06:22:31 PM »
Citfa
Quote
The idea of positive ion flow is not that hard to understand.  I am old enough that i learned electron flow at an early age.

I was also taught conventional flow notation(charge/hole theory) in Engineering but found the concept backwards so I transitioned to electron flow notation. I understand both forms of notation however my point was that conventional (+) flow is not technically correct.

For example, an electron flow/hydraulic analogy describes a back emf perfectly.
On charge (-)push>>>inductor>>>pull(+)
On discharge (+)pull>>>inductor>>>push(-)
It works because the charge density corresponds to pressure and the difference in pressure drives the flow of charges from high to low.

Now let's try it with conventional (+) notation.
On charge pull(+)>>>inductor>>>push(-)
On discharge push(-)>>>inductor>>>pull(+)

It doesn't work because it would falsely presume that the positive (+) charges are moving when in fact they cannot.
Since the (+) charges cannot move it's like saying a hydraulic ram works by removing the oil (-) on the low
side of the piston and sucking in air(+) on the high side. It's not technically correct and it never will be.

People can believe whatever they want however if it has no basis in reality then it's not going to work in reality. It's that simple...

AC

#### onepower

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1111
##### Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2023, 08:46:26 PM »
Jimboot
Quote
Everything about electron flow confuses me. Especially after looking at experiments when using an electron beam dismisses the theory of flow and explains the mechanism as spin. Which intuitively makes more sense to me.

This is because most people don't understand energy or electrodynamics.

Think of it this way, if we connect a wire across a battery the electrons do not trickle through it like a stream. Think of a slice or thin cross section of the wire containing millions of electrons drifting forward from the (-) towards the (+) terminal. In effect, each slice is like a thin charged capacitor plate full of millions of electrons inching forward. Each thin slice has an electric field which acts on the slice next to it like millions of thin charged capacitor plates. This is why the electron flow can be very slow but the electric field and energy travel very fast.

Suppose I charge a 12" sphere to tens of thousands of volts and start moving it towards you. The sphere only needs to move a small amount but you feel the effects all over your body. Your not feeling the sphere your feeling the force of the much larger electric field radiating from the sphere all over. It doesn't matter if the sphere spins or not because the electric field does not spin with it anymore than light spins with a light bulb. Now line up a thousand charged spheres and move the first one closer to the rest. The first sphere can move slowly but the electric field displacement moves down the line of spheres near the speed of light. This is basically how electron flow in a conductor works.

Psychology also comes into play and people get confused when many effects occur all at once. The mind always looks for the easy answer, the silver bullet but has trouble comprehending a barrage of bullets. So you say flow is problematic but spin makes more sense, why not both?. Why not flow/displacement, scattering/oscillations as well as spin and EM waves in between the moving electrons(-) also interacting with the stationary protons(+)?. Theoretically all these effects should come into play and all describe what happens in a conductor which carries an electron current.

AC

#### seychelles

• Hero Member
• Posts: 980
##### Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2023, 09:02:50 PM »

#### Bob Smith

• Hero Member
• Posts: 733
##### Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2023, 03:34:38 AM »
Following this thread with interest, Joel. What you're proposing makes a lot of sense to me.
Bob

#### Thaelin

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 1090
##### Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2023, 09:54:35 AM »
I built up an amplinyne as I miss understood what it was supposed to do. If you follow the mill vids on its use, it was the "regulator" for aiming the big guns on a ship. When set up correctly, it would be driven by a large motor from the ships power and depending on the controllers output, it would run the direction and asmuth  motors either forward or reverse to align with the settings on the control deck. I did this with a pair of 1hp 48v scooter motors thinking it would output more than in. Not the case at all.
thay

#### citfta

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1050
##### Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #57 on: August 25, 2023, 04:36:30 PM »
I built up an amplinyne as I miss understood what it was supposed to do. If you follow the mill vids on its use, it was the "regulator" for aiming the big guns on a ship. When set up correctly, it would be driven by a large motor from the ships power and depending on the controllers output, it would run the direction and asmuth  motors either forward or reverse to align with the settings on the control deck. I did this with a pair of 1hp 48v scooter motors thinking it would output more than in. Not the case at all.
thay

Hi thay,

Your experience with the amplidyne is pretty typical for those that don't have any formal education in electronics.  Unfortunately there are a tremendous amount of YouTube videos where people make a lot of claims because they don't properly understand the terminology used in electronics.  For instance I have seen several videos where someone claims that since vacuum tubes can amplify signals then we should be able to make an OU device using them.  What they don't understand is that amplifying a signal is NOT the same as amplifying power.  I want to add that NONE of us was born knowing these things.  We all had to learn them.  But watching YouTube videos is not a good way to learn because so many of them were made by people that didn't understand what they were doing.

There are so many online free electronics courses that someone can take and really learn basic electronics that it is a shame so many people want to take short cuts and try to learn by watching bad videos.  I have used this analogy before, but how can you possibly hope to explore unknown areas if you haven't taken the time to learn what has already been explored?  Almost every week I see on this forum and others where someone is claiming they think they have found something new.  When the reality is they are seeing what has been observed many times before.  I encourage everyone to do their own experiments and learn because hands on experience is the best teacher.  But take the time to learn what are normal circuit functions before claiming you have found something new.

Respectfully,
Carroll

#### seychelles

• Hero Member
• Posts: 980
##### Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2023, 07:31:58 PM »