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Author Topic: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)  (Read 83481 times)

Offline electrostatic

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2007, 04:32:01 PM »


Time to settle this, on the bench!

Spark.


Hi Spark,

Since there where two different setups on this page 

I just wanted to check something out with you.
Was the battery input on this http://drspark.com/12vbulbs.jpg
pulsed at 1/6 cycle compared to the output bulb?
Like this diagram  http://drspark.com/capamp.jpg

Or like this one where the battery is always in the circuit
http://drspark.com/2cycle.jpg which I think would need
A different explanation to show the extra cycles through
The output bulb..

ADDED:

Ok, the explanation for this http://drspark.com/2cycle.jpg
would be the same as for this one http://drspark.com/capamp.jpg

Only slightly different.

In the shown switching position you have a LC tank circuit
Comprising of  C1 +C2 in parallel through L1+L2
To C3+C4 in series. This is a ringing circuit (AC) which would have the same effect
as the manual (extra cycles) switching of  http://drspark.com/capamp.jpg

So the first explanation still holds I think.

Cliff,
« Last Edit: February 25, 2007, 05:08:46 PM by electrostatic »

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2007, 04:32:01 PM »

Offline pese

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2007, 07:31:17 PM »
Some members ask me for this scematics.
possibly (sure) it cant work
because TR1 primare the bottom winding are
shortet with centertap via C4 against ground - and also the
food-end of this windings are SHORTET with C7 +C8 against
Ground.
So never an Frequency can bee transformed , and never start up
any Voltage to selfrunning  or only running.

never have this worked , possible als an error in desing.
Inventor will find out this...

Gustav Pese

Offline drspark

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2007, 10:06:49 PM »
Hi Electrostatic,

There are 3 versions of this circuit now up on my site.
The first one i built back in 1993 had 7 reed relays and was controled by computer useing the printer port output byte, it ran as described and was dismissed by a freind as a simple transformer.

But, it sure seemed strange to be able to burn a resister thru another identical resister, and since in theroy and practice this cap bouncing effect divides the voltage in halve and also *should* double the current.

But still the resister at the load point burns instead of one being twice as hot as the other...   

I left it on my site as a definite possability imho.

years later Igor added a transformer at the load point and the power connection to the middle of that, as soon as I saw that I started playing with the simulator and repeated my result from many years ago. So next i order a 4pole relay and a caps to try it again, same result as before, slightly different because you cant have any number of BC cycles (as per v1 capamp.jpg) but the same thing happens, the caps bounce the *charge* from one side to the other thru the t1 (like a push pull amp?)  and whenever there is an inballance in the voltage of the supply current flows untill the state changes or it equalizes, when the caps go series the voltage is greater than the supply so the inballance causes a flow back, now add in fact that the caps dont compleatly discharge every step or *state* the requirements from the battery decrease.

After making this simulate and work again on bench with 555 / relay.
I quest to convert to solid state. When I get solid state version to sim (thanks gyula pointed out fet circuit over at JLN site)
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/scalchrg.htm

I change the load resister for the transformer trying to get back to DC when the whole simulation got really strange with voltages rising and in less than a second megawatts are on Rout and the sim chokes out of bits and times out. So I add zener to clamp off voltage and the sim voltage rises to about that voltage and becomes steady state. then I ask all, whats going on here? and save to buy parts for ver3.

I have all but the zeners, fets and a good idea how many turns to use on the torroid...

And the big question is IF the circuit as drawn will turn the fets ON compleatly, or burn them up?

Spark

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2007, 10:06:49 PM »
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Offline drspark

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2007, 10:08:49 PM »
Hi pese,

I will make an animated .gif that will show how there IS a varying voltage on the transformer.

I start on it now.

Best Regards
Spark

Offline drspark

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2007, 10:44:59 PM »
Hi People,

Here is a little .GIF animation I made for pese.
I hope this helps to visualize whats happening

Spark

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2007, 10:44:59 PM »
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Offline pese

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2007, 10:55:30 PM »
This will also not work  Contact 1 and 3 are shorted over Cap to ground.
Possible to use as LC resonance device , But not useable with 100 uF Elektrolydt Condensors !!  (Must bipolar) Value fr L if C = 100-200uF ? Frequency ?
Something is possibly wrong in anyway .

Also in your circuit Pin 2 and 3 from Transormers are connected wit condensors to ground .  On Pin 2 (Condensor with Zener , you "hope" that an DC.voltage must be upload himself , never possibel that AC resonate in this point .
I think "some" will be changed in this circuit from you or members here...

Offline drspark

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2007, 02:08:46 AM »
Hi Pese,

I have never claimed this was a resonate ac circuit/consept.
The basic circuit is DC.
My understanding;
The abrupt switch(ing) causes the current in the winding to stop suddenly and that causes flyback or increase in voltage no matter what the polarity that pulse can integrate onto a cap, there is nowhere else to go...

here is another DC circuit (the multivibrater again) that converts DC to AC. Notice this circuit is square (basicly) waves accross the transformer, yet this circuit works great for running small appliances that can handle the noise from harmonics and switching.

Finding the smaller caps and higher frequency that would resonate the T1 could be a great improvement, but the sinewaves I see in that would kill the flyback integration and voltage increase, thats added to the current increase caused by the capasitors being swapped.

Spark

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2007, 02:08:46 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2007, 04:26:25 AM »
Hi Spark,
what kind of transformer did you use in your simulations ?

Is it a normal 50 or 60  Hz type with iron core
or a ferrite transformer, which can be used with higher frequencies ?

What is about the turn ratio ?

Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.

Offline drspark

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2007, 07:16:39 AM »
Hi Stephan,

The transformer has a one to one turns ratio.

With the simulator I set up a test;
1khz from side to side 1v in, 1v out,
from one side to centertap 1v in 2v out.

Seems to be two wires equal lenght, one center tapped the other not.

The core type is unknown to me...

I plan on setting the multivibrator caps to 0.01uf for about 1.5khz and using a torroid. Question I have is how many feet of wire should I use?

Spark

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2007, 07:16:39 AM »
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Offline pese

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2007, 07:52:48 AM »
@drspark

offcause , if your schematic in Reply #43 uis not rsonating wt the
elektrolytics than it is an "shortet (AC) Circuit !!
Tve C4  L /from Transfo and C7 are an closed Ring (over Ground Connection) So the Transfprmer ist shortet  for AC Signals that will be transferred to bridge rects ....
This is all . Pls try to understand
(otherwise i must not give any comments more)
Pese

Offline pese

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2007, 08:10:56 AM »
@ drspark

also in message #51
the inverter circuit is wrong designed and can not work.

if sombody need to know, why ... ask on message or email
pese

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2007, 08:10:56 AM »
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Offline wizkycho

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #56 on: February 26, 2007, 01:43:00 PM »
...we are getting closer, what a nice progress - even if it is "only" a math simmulation...
Now look at the picture bellow... at first it doesn't seem much... Oo but think more than twice.
E Output rises by one unit (+1)... we've been ignoring other points of E extraction in our circuit, till now. This change will just make higher output, leaving input as it is.

disadvantage: little more complex switching.

wiz

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2007, 03:27:11 PM »
@DrSpark,
if you use normal standard Iron cores for the transformer,
you can only use frequencies up to about 70 Hz,
otherwise your hysteresis losses will be too high.
If you want to go to 1.5 Khz you should then use a ferrite transformer.

@Pese.
where are the exact errors in the sims ?
I guess, if the sims show some excess, then
it is indeed something there, if he did setup the simulations
right with all the start parameters !

@Igor,
thanks for your new graphics, but it is hard to understand.
What do you want exactly to change now ?
Can you please explain some more ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline pese

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2007, 07:28:06 AM »
@stefan,
ich reklamiere nur , das trafo in #43 mit elkos AC m?ssig jurzgeschlossen ist und somit BALLAST (load) darstellen.
C4,C/+C8 sind an Pin 2+3 des prim?rkreises angeschlossen.
Beide C gegen Ground.  Das ist derselbe "Kurzschluss" als w?rde man
einen Kondensator an 4+5 des sekund?rkreises h?ngen. Der Ballast
durch den Kondensator (f?r AC) ist so gross dass diese Stufe SO
nicht arbeiten kann . Sorry , diese theoretischen Dinge sind f?r mich schwierig in englisch auszudr?cken . G.Pese

Die Inverterschaltung (#51) hat auch "dicke" Fehler . SO ,nicht nachbauen!

Offline wizkycho

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Re: Igors switcher (EMF recycler2)
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2007, 08:59:06 AM »
@Igor,
thanks for your new graphics, but it is hard to understand.
What do you want exactly to change now ?
Can you please explain some more ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

... to cut the story, I made a mistake. I expected for a moment that R2 would behave like a aditional voltage rise...well it is but with reverse polarity for R2 so If R2 is in circuit (R2=R1) voltage on R1 drops to half of what it was without using R2 so Ecase1=Ecase2...
I desperatly wanted to save some more charges...maybe there is another way...

igor

 

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