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Author Topic: Spinning Magnet and Armature Generator  (Read 1526 times)

Offline floodrod

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Spinning Magnet and Armature Generator
« on: February 22, 2023, 12:56:31 PM »
I thought of this a few months ago and wat to hear people's take on the idea.  Pretty simple build.. Basically a thought how to create power while converting the Lenz and Eddy currents to more power.  Braking will still happen, but perhaps we can tap it for our benefit.

Both the Rotor and Generator main pickup are on bearings and can spin...

Pickup coils would be a wound motor armature on an axle.  We use outside power to spin a Permanent Magnet Rotor.  It induces current into the Armature.  Lenz and Eddy Currents will manifest, but instead of slowing the rotor, they will instead start to spin the Pickup Armature.  The armature will obviously start to produce a bit less power once spinning.

But now we install a torque generator on the Spinning armature to slow down the armature spinning and convert it to usable power.

Lenz and eddy will still be present, but we still have almost full output from the pickup + we converted the the braking effect to usable power.


Offline floodrod

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Re: Spinning Magnet and Armature Generator
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2023, 02:22:38 AM »
I garbage picked an old leaf blower and harvested the armature and brush assembly.  And I am printing out a stand for it now.

A load will be hooked to the brush leads. And a strong magnet rotor will rotate next to the spinning armature assembly. First I will verify if I can get the armature spinning from lenz by generating a magnetic field into the armature from induction.

If I can get the armature spinning from the lenz braking effect / eddy currents while generating and harvesting power, then I can try hooking up a stepper motor to the armature shaft to extract power from the the braking effect that is causing the armature to spin.

Since I have not had much luck beating lenz, might as well try to use it for benefit instead. 

I should have some preliminary updates by tomorrow if the parts I designed fit and work as intended.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Spinning Magnet and Armature Generator
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2023, 03:56:00 PM »
Armature mount came out well..  But unfortunately I could not get the armature spinning by inducing it with a rotor.  I used as powerful magnets as I could and drill spun it, the armature stayed still.  Doah..

So I glued 4 alternating magnets on the armature to tinker with.  The armature inducts when spinning near metal or a magnet near by.  It also inducts when using a separate rotor to magnetically lock and spin the rotor.

Nothing Jaw-dropping noticed, but let the tinkering continue.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Spinning Magnet and Armature Generator
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2023, 05:02:16 PM »
Driving armature with a prime mover.  Induced phase in armature switches depending on which way it rotates.  One way more RPM than the other.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRTkf0l_Yto

After evaluating closer- seems I said an error in the video.  One way the induced voltage looks 90 degrees out of phase with the driver.  The other isn't. 

Offline moritz

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Re: Spinning Magnet and Armature Generator
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2023, 09:25:22 PM »
intresting effect hmm ... found something strange too maby you can help me out i will make a video. =)

Offline floodrod

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Re: Spinning Magnet and Armature Generator
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2023, 09:55:39 PM »
intresting effect hmm ... found something strange too maby you can help me out i will make a video. =)

Many here much more knowledgeable than me.  I just make things spin and tinker.

But sure- send what you got..

Offline citfta

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Re: Spinning Magnet and Armature Generator
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2023, 03:23:12 PM »
Driving armature with a prime mover.  Induced phase in armature switches depending on which way it rotates.  One way more RPM than the other.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRTkf0l_Yto

After evaluating closer- seems I said an error in the video.  One way the induced voltage looks 90 degrees out of phase with the driver.  The other isn't.


What you are seeing is the result of the external magnets positions in relation to the position of the brushes.  By shifting the magnets positions or the brush positions you can change the results so that the phase shift and rpm is the same in both directions.  Large industrial DC motors have the brush positions adjustable so they can be adjusted to the "neutral zone".  As you have seen one way draws a lot more current than the other way.  I hope this helps.


Carroll

Offline floodrod

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Re: Spinning Magnet and Armature Generator
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2023, 04:29:16 PM »

What you are seeing is the result of the external magnets positions in relation to the position of the brushes.  By shifting the magnets positions or the brush positions you can change the results so that the phase shift and rpm is the same in both directions.  Large industrial DC motors have the brush positions adjustable so they can be adjusted to the "neutral zone".  As you have seen one way draws a lot more current than the other way.  I hope this helps.


Carroll

probably- that makes sense..

The driver coil by itself barely inducts anything into the armature. I tested it without the magnets on the armature.  The lion's share of the induction is coming from the magnets on the rotor.  The prime mover is altering the flux of the magnets on the rotor causing the rotor to induct.  Shorting the output of the brushes does not slow the rotor or raise the current noticeably.

I am adding more magnets on every laminate face.  Just for experimentation

Offline moritz

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Re: Spinning Magnet and Armature Generator
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2023, 12:41:39 PM »
Many here much more knowledgeable than me.  I just make things spin and tinker.


=D me too,
there is my video, my english is not that good i hope it sounds not to stupido
i shown this to many electricians in my village no one knows why it acts like this
and i showed it also to a guy who has a electricmotor company.. no one knows how this works.
i will keep experimenting but better not alone.. xD so i guess opensorce is the key to create great things =)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFd4ltcB558

greetings moritz

Offline floodrod

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Re: Spinning Magnet and Armature Generator
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2023, 01:53:15 PM »
=D me too,
there is my video, my english is not that good i hope it sounds not to stupido
i shown this to many electricians in my village no one knows why it acts like this
and i showed it also to a guy who has a electricmotor company.. no one knows how this works.
i will keep experimenting but better not alone.. xD so i guess opensorce is the key to create great things =)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFd4ltcB558

greetings moritz

Few months ago I found the same effect. But I had to use a transformer also. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUB2yY_PNFU

I bet if you used a scope, the generator will be 90 degrees out of phase from the input.  My evaluation is because the stepper has hundreds of poles, the frequency is in the Kilohertz.  And at higher frequency like that, we produce what Thane calls the "delayed lenz effect".. 

The effect is debated..  Some think lenz is really delayed, and others think it is somehow saturating the core of the generator which is reducing eddy current opposition of the core. And all tests I have seen still have low output power compared to the input.

As of now, I don't think anyone can reproduce this without a core. To find out, I suppose one must build a 200 pole generator with no core and test.   

Offline moritz

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Re: Spinning Magnet and Armature Generator
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2023, 10:17:01 PM »
=D very cool, thx for your quick reply
and really nice youtube canal, you have a lot of intresting ideas
thx for sharing your great work

greetings moritz

Offline floodrod

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Re: Spinning Magnet and Armature Generator
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2023, 02:24:21 AM »
=D very cool, thx for your quick reply
and really nice youtube canal, you have a lot of intresting ideas
thx for sharing your great work

greetings moritz

Thanks Buddy..  Don't mistake my advice as saying it is not worthy, because I believe this effect you are witnessing is still mysterious. And who knows what you may find.

Here are my results.  I have created a "speedup" effect with 3 or 4 different configurations.  They are spread in my youtube videos. But they all needed some type of core material.  On each, I tested RPM and Input power without the core near the rotor and with the core.  The core always slows the rotor (even without a coil).  When the speedup effect occurs, the RPM never goes quicker than without the core did.  It would appear that the "Speedup Effect" is negating some of the slowdown that the core adds to the rotor.  Or removing some of the opposition that core inserts in the mix.

We can "assume" the core adds eddy-currents which slows the rotor. So is it safe to "assume" the speedup effect is somehow neutralizing the core's eddy currents?  I don't know for sure.  And I saw videos of electrical engineers examining Thane's speedup effects and also not exactly sure why.  They had their theories, some more arrogant that others, but it was an unknown effect.

There is also something to be said about the phase shift.  I have also achieved a 90 degree phase shift several ways. When this happens, usually loads do not transfer to the primary..  My theory is the 90 degree mark is half way between generator and motor..  1/2 the cycle the generator helps the motor and the other 1/2 it works against the motor. So it basically equals out.  It is even possible to use air coils and achieve the phase shift that makes input go down as you pull a load from the secondary. This sometimes happens when we are near or at resonance.  Problem I see is when this happens, we start sending power back to the primary by puling from the secondary.  Thus this causes the input to send less power into the primary. And the whole effect happens because we need the input from the primary. So in solid-state version it kinda defeats the purpose.

Is there a secret ingredient that ties this all together so we can reap the benefits?  Perhaps..  That is what we seek. 
Like I wonder what would happen if you remove the stepper motor core and wind the coils with air cores.  Ultimately making a 200 pole air core generator that can produce power in the kilohertz frequency range.  You may be able to spin that generator quick enough to reach its own resonance with mechanical input.  Will it produce magical outcomes? Maybe...  Experiment on and report the findings..   

Just to be clear, all my statements are my "theories"..  Some can learn from textbooks and some need to piece the chain of events together for ourselves (like me) to see the whole picture.  Are my views erroneous and demented?  Probably... 

Offline lesleyharrell

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Re: Spinning Magnet and Armature Generator
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2023, 08:33:53 AM »

What you are seeing is the result of the external magnets positions in relation to the position of the brushes.  By shifting the magnets positions or the brush positions you can change the results so that the phase shift and rpm is the same in both directions.  Large industrial DC motors have the brush positions adjustable so they can be adjusted to the "neutral zone".  As you have seen one way draws a lot more current than the other way.  I hope this helps.


Carroll

Thank you for your explanation, Carroll. I'm assuming this is in response to a specific context or question, and without more information, I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to. However, based on the information you've provided, it seems like you are discussing the behavior of a DC motor and how the positions of the external magnets and brushes can affect the performance of the motor.

In a DC motor, the external magnets create a magnetic field that interacts with the magnetic field of the rotor, causing it to rotate. The brushes, which are in contact with the commutator on the rotor, control the flow of current to the rotor windings. The position of the brushes relative to the magnets can affect the efficiency and performance of the motor.

If the brushes are not in the "neutral zone," where the current flow is balanced, the motor may draw more current in one direction than in the other, causing uneven performance and possibly damaging the motor. By adjusting the positions of the magnets or the brushes, the neutral zone can be achieved, resulting in more efficient and balanced performance.

I hope this helps clarify your explanation. Let me know if you have any further questions!