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Author Topic: Serious HES derivative project proposal  (Read 29489 times)

SolarLab

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #90 on: March 31, 2023, 07:47:46 PM »
Hi Cadman,

If you don't mind - can you share where you got the powder, etc. and the cost?
No problem if you can't but thought I'd ask. You can PM me if you are concerned
with the possibility of some interference with your sources, etc. TIA

SL



Cadman

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #91 on: March 31, 2023, 11:15:48 PM »
Hi Cadman,

If you don't mind - can you share where you got the powder, etc. and the cost?
No problem if you can't but thought I'd ask. You can PM me if you are concerned
with the possibility of some interference with your sources, etc. TIA

SL

Sure, glad to. They are in New Jersey and have several types of powders.

https://sciencekitstore.com/metals/iron-powders/

These are the two I chose to start with.

IRON100  10lbs for $54.00
https://sciencekitstore.com/iron-powder/

SM101 5lbs for $65.00
https://sciencekitstore.com/soft-magnetic-iron-powder/

They were delivered in heavy plastic bags inside of quart size cans, boxed of course. Fast delivery too.

Cadman

PS  the calculated weight for my Samsung outer rotor iron is ~6.3 lb


SolarLab

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #92 on: April 01, 2023, 08:03:39 PM »
Sure, glad to. They are in New Jersey and have several types of powders.

https://sciencekitstore.com/metals/iron-powders/

These are the two I chose to start with.

IRON100  10lbs for $54.00
https://sciencekitstore.com/iron-powder/

SM101 5lbs for $65.00
https://sciencekitstore.com/soft-magnetic-iron-powder/

They were delivered in heavy plastic bags inside of quart size cans, boxed of course. Fast delivery too.

Cadman

PS  the calculated weight for my Samsung outer rotor iron is ~6.3 lb


Thanks again Cadman.

Just backed-off a $10K MOPA Laser purchase (wanted to speed up the
lamination cutting process) - to focus on the SMC powder forming
approach again.

Found 50 Ton hydralic cylinders on Amazon (~$100) so two of those
(opposing) should be more than adequate for >800MPa compression.
Put my CNC Mill to work machining molds and $10K worth materials
hopefully will yield better bang for the buck? 

More versatile as well - thin metal sheets are only cheap in ton rolls,
therefore a bag of iron powder at 10 lbs at $50 makes more sense!

Oh - gotta go - big black snake just went into the greenhouse...

SL


SolarLab

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #93 on: April 01, 2023, 10:30:56 PM »

Compression Mold Idea

Here's a bit of detail regarding the "Compression Mold Idea."
Links are found in the pdf attachment.

SL

Here's a 30 Ton heated hydraulic press ($1399us)     30 tsi ~ 463 MPa [?]
https://www.amazon.com/Ton-Lab-Heat-Plate-Machine/dp/B09C7JDRJ2?ref_=ast_sto_dp

Or, a 50 Ton manual Bottle Hydraulic Jack ($99us)
- Search: "XtremepowerUS 50-Ton Capacity Hydraulic Bottle Jack Automotive Low Profile Shop Axle Jack
Hoist Lift / Red" [url is too long] 

[/url]

Cadman

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #94 on: April 02, 2023, 12:47:17 AM »
Compression Mold Idea

Here's a bit of detail regarding the "Compression Mold Idea."
Links are found in the pdf attachment.

SL

Here's a 30 Ton heated hydraulic press ($1399us)     30 tsi ~ 463 MPa [?]
https://www.amazon.com/Ton-Lab-Heat-Plate-Machine/dp/B09C7JDRJ2?ref_=ast_sto_dp

Or, a 50 Ton manual Bottle Hydraulic Jack ($99us)
- Search: "XtremepowerUS 50-Ton Capacity Hydraulic Bottle Jack Automotive Low Profile Shop Axle Jack
Hoist Lift / Red" [url is too long] 

Be careful there it’s easy to fool yourself. The tonnage rating of a hyd press is the total piston force or hyd pressure x piston area. Then you divide that by the square surface area of the part being compressed to arrive at the compression force applied to the part, either psi or Mpa. Without looking it up I think 1 MPa is about 145 psi. 400 Mpa is ~58000 psi.

So for example, if you’re compressing a part with 2 square inches of surface with a 400 Mpa press you’re only applying 200 Mpa or 29000 psi to the part.

If you're thinking about making a hydraulic press, leverage can be your friend.


SolarLab

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #95 on: April 02, 2023, 03:16:48 AM »
Be careful there it’s easy to fool yourself. The tonnage rating of a hyd press is the total piston force or hyd pressure x piston area. Then you divide that by the square surface area of the part being compressed to arrive at the compression force applied to the part, either psi or Mpa. Without looking it up I think 1 MPa is about 145 psi. 400 Mpa is ~58000 psi.

So for example, if you’re compressing a part with 2 square inches of surface with a 400 Mpa press you’re only applying 200 Mpa or 29000 psi to the part.

If you're thinking about making a hydraulic press, leverage can be your friend.


Cadman,

You're correct - 1 MPa = 145 psi, however I used "tsi (tons per square inch) - but not sure if I know what I'm doing!
However, I did not account for the area since that will vary - so the whole thing is better done in Solidworks Mech.
Some of the SMC papers talk about a 60 Ton Press for 800 MPa, but it's not well explained.

BTW, the strongest bolts I could find are Metric rated 12.2 at about 9500 MPa (again ?). Still working it...

In the "Convert" I used "tsi" or "tons per square inch" and MPa. It comes out to 1 tsi = 13.6 MPa or 30 tsi = 410.9 MPa.

Not sure if that's correct however; so I'd better do a bit more study! Anyway; I'd like to convert MPa to Tons to get a
ballpark figure to use between the "powdered SMC" spec sheets and the "Hydraulic Cylinder" requirement. From memory
I think it was around something like a 50 Ton hydraulic jack should give about a bit less than 800 MPa.

Trouble is I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to compression pressures and conversions (?).

SL


Dog-One

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Amazon URL Quick Tip
« Reply #96 on: April 02, 2023, 05:42:08 AM »
https://www.amazon.com/Ton-Lab-Heat-Plate-Machine/dp/B09C7JDRJ2?ref_=ast_sto_dp

[url is too long] 

A quick tip for Amazon URLs...

You can remove most of the URL except the /dp/XXXXXXXXX part and
the link will take you straight to it.  An example for the above would be:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09C7JDRJ2

Cadman

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #97 on: April 02, 2023, 03:48:22 PM »
SL,

Maybe this will help. Apologies in advance for the simplistic wording.

You have a hyd cyl (press) rated at 50 tons. Just imagine that as a big block of steel that weighs 50 tons. That’s all there is to it at this point, you have 50 tons to work with.

Underneath that you place your punch and dies. The punch, which is the shape and area of your part, has a punch face surface area of 2 sq. in. Then you lower your 50 ton weight onto the punch. The punch face will have a distributed pressure of 25 tons per sq in, or 50,000 psi, or ~345 Mpa.

We're talking about a thin flat part so just divide the punch surface area by the press pressure to get the compression force on the SMC powder.



bistander

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #98 on: April 03, 2023, 04:21:17 PM »
Hi all,
You might consider this approach to getting useable cores for first attempt prototypes which I've used recently. I am just experimenting with behavior of "wires in grooves" as member rakarskiy would say, or coils in slots to satisfy my own interpretation of theory. My investigation is on going but indications so far don't surprise me. Anyway, for your consideration, I'll attach a photo of my fixture. Made from sawing and grinding an old MOT, uWave Oven Transformer. For a piece of scrape, it turned out pretty good in my opinion. It does not heat at all, coils do occasionally. A second portion of the core fits on top for the tests. Good luck.
bi

SolarLab

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #99 on: April 03, 2023, 06:11:53 PM »
Dog One - Thanks, good tip.

Cadman - Great explaination, thanks. Really helps a lot. Looks like my "Convert" conversions
are correct which makes "ball park" figuring significantly easier and understandable!

BTW - Just purchased the 30 Ton press in the above link; should be here Thursday. Their engineer
claims it's overbuilt but how much he didn't want to say. I'll reverse-engineer it in Solidworks
when it arrives. Hey, who knows! Maybe easily upgraded to 60 Ton with some major added support?

Bistander - nice work, curious as to how it will work out.

For Ref: A few fellows in Nigeria (Tech School) built a 40 Ton press for about  $400us and
documented it (attached pdf). It's quite good since they included all the calculations.

SL

bistander

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #100 on: April 03, 2023, 11:00:57 PM »

...
Bistander - nice work, curious as to how it will work out.
...

SL,
It works great as a core. I have no problems with it. Here I compared 4 coils (one per tooth) to coil surrounding the 4 teeth for induction using 60 Hz from variac excitating the original primary. I'll share after I figure a good way to present data. Been using Excel. I'm rusty at that.
bi

kolbacict

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #101 on: April 04, 2023, 07:42:20 PM »
SL,
It works great as a core. I have no problems with it. Here I compared 4 coils (one per tooth) to coil surrounding the 4 teeth for induction using 60 Hz from variac excitating the original primary. I'll share after I figure a good way to present data. Been using Excel. I'm rusty at that.
bi
When will we finally get more active power at the output than we fed at the input ?

bistander

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #102 on: April 04, 2023, 07:58:44 PM »
When will we finally get more active power at the output than we fed at the input ?
I think you know.
bi

Cadman

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #103 on: April 04, 2023, 08:08:17 PM »
I think you know.
bi

Always the optimist. LOL

SolarLab

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #104 on: April 04, 2023, 08:29:57 PM »
Cadman,

Before beefing-up the 30 Ton press I'm going to follow your lead re: "resin & iron powder mix."

May have considerable merit IMHO - for example, see the attached paper.

SL

Quote from K - "Are you done yet, are you done yet?"  ;) Quote from SL - "Give it a rest!"  8)

Q.: If I thought for a second that this method didn't work, would I spend >$2800us on machines
to make and test laminations and substrates?