Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Custom Search

Author Topic: Serious HES derivative project proposal  (Read 29487 times)

Cadman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2023, 01:40:56 PM »
Thanks Dog-One,

Even if your circuit doesn’t output the wave form in my picture it’s helpful and informative now that you’ve made it more clear to me. The timing diagram that SL posted from one of the patents shows all pulses in the positive direction, but there is also a polarity changer involved that changes the polarity sent to the coils. In SL’s timing diagram from the patent, the polarity change is shown as lighter gray lines in the pulse train. That’s easy to miss unless the patents are really studied like SL did.

The Lingen pulse train sweeps in one direction. The pulse train left to right starts at coil 1 and ends at coil 4. All 4 pulses are pulsed with the same polarity current. Then you are at the end of the period shown in the diagram. Current polarity swaps, then the pulse train to the same 4 coils repeats left to right with that opposite polarity. Repeat 4 pos, 4 neg in a loop as long as desired. And this one set of pulse trains can be used to signal or supply multiple Lingens too.

The offset between the trains to each coil is there to help roll the magnetic field across the 4 coils. It could be a percentage of the period and vary with the pulse frequency, or everything could be set for a single frequency.

I’m going to build your circuit as it is and maybe try to come up with a way to modify it for adjustable offsets etc. With my skill level that will probably end in failure though. But, the components are easily affordable.

Of course you, or anyone else, are more than welcome to come up with that circuit yourself, ... hint hint  :) ...


Cadman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2023, 11:55:09 PM »
Don't you think that there is a fundamental difference between the sinusoidal three-phase voltage that we have from the outlet. And the one that we get with the help of mosfets, relays, switching with brushes and a collector, and so on (meandr) ? And they behave in the stator a little differently. Even from my frequency converter for asynchronous PWM motors, the
signal is not quite clean. One smart person from Odessa pointed this out to me.

Hi kolbacict,

Yes, you know there’s a big difference. SL based his Lingen mostly from the HES cell phone generator/charger, which is for a DC output.

I think it also happens to be the starting point for the excitation of the HES stand alone generators. I’ll bet you’ve read that their generation process starts with a relatively insignificant magnetic field, so that would be from a relatively small supply of current. That current is used to successively increase the output in other windings until it’s kilowatts. Holcomb also states that his generators can output currents of any phase, so there has to be a whole lot more to their circuitry from the start.

Cadman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2023, 11:59:44 PM »
In hopes of making my vision of this generator more clear. This is for the starting point of the project. Hopefully, better more advanced configurations will follow.

bistander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 705
Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2023, 01:06:58 AM »
... The timing diagram that SL posted from one of the patents shows all pulses in the positive direction, ...

Hi Cadman,
Can you post that timing diagram or link to post where SL showed it? I've been through Holcomb's patents/applications and it appeared he was always using North-off-South-off-North-off-South- -- and so on sequencing. Certainly when 3-phase mains are used for exciting the RMF, it swings N to S to N to S to N and so on.

Regarding the configuration of the 36 stator coils, I haven't seen suggested, but think you should consider using 6 or 12 poles. When 6 poles, each pole face has 6 teeth and coils, when 12 poles, each pole face has 3 teeth and coils. That way no individual teeth/coils go unused and there will be no discontinuities when you populate the entire circumference with your powdered Fe sectors. Take or leave.
bi

Cadman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2023, 04:09:54 AM »
Hi Bistander,

I posted the link here yesterday but here it is again https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg99028#msg99028

The only reasoning I have for the 32 coil setup is that it allows for a 4 pulse driver (fewer components and matches the PLC I already have) and is more relatable to the 8 coil Lingen. It's a place to start, and I was hoping that making it as easy as possible would encourage more good people to participate and help get the project off the ground. I realize the output will likely have to be rectified and the ripple smoothed out. I really would like to have 3 phase output, even if it has imperfect sine waves. But that's tabled for later unless someone donates a driver schematic for one up front that I could easily build.

I really do appreciate your expert suggestions and input. Very helpful, thank you.


bistander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 705
Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2023, 07:01:49 AM »
Hi Bistander,

I posted the link here yesterday but here it is again https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg99028#msg99028
...

Thanks Cadman,
That gif vector diagram is from: http://www.ece.umn.edu/users/riaz/animations/sinvec.html
posted by Listener192 back on page 10 or 11.
The other diagram is from SL and contains some images from WO 2018/134233 A2. The timing sequence shown on it I believe is SL's handiwork derived from description found on pages 17 & 18 of the WO document. So I read that again, and it does appear to excite the coils only North or only South. And has the 4 North coils sequenced for an 8 second period then followed by an 8 second off period. To me, it's unclear how this produces a "rolling" or traveling magnetic flux "wave" similar to the RMF found in 3-phase machines. The patent refers to pulsing flux. But it is what it is.
Also I noticed when I read the next page or two, Holcomb described using a frequency generator and PLC to fire the sequencing fet's.
bi

Dog-One

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1019
Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2023, 07:35:58 AM »
I'll have to study this some more.  Something is not quite making sense.

There are eight timing intervals for a complete cycle.  We have a positive
polarity or off.  The other choice is we have a positive polarity or a negative
polarity.  I see nothing to indicate we can have positive, negative and off
all within a single cycle.  If that be the case, then my driver should work
just fine for this application.

To me, it's unclear how this produces a "rolling" or traveling magnetic flux "wave" similar to the RMF found in 3-phase machines. The patent refers to pulsing flux. But it is what it is.

The way I see this is each coil that is energized adds to the total flux
saturation in that region.

Single Polarity:
All off -- 0%
One on, three off -- 25%
Two on, two off, 50%
Three on, one off, 75%
All four on, 100%

For bipolar it's this way:
All negative -- 100% S-N
Three negative, one positive -- 50% S-N
Two negative, two positive -- 0%
One negative, three positive -- 50% N-S
All positive -- 100% N-S

The degree of regional flux saturation is what mimics the rotor position
relative to the stator poles.  That's my thinking anyway.

Cadman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2023, 02:28:14 PM »
Hi guys,

Watch this gif animation here. It’s important.
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg98977#msg98977
This one    Bf-ZXmid-Cont_HES_LinGen_4Coil-ST37_4msON-Time_1ms_SeqLO_01.gif


SL's Lingen is based on Holcomb's patent WO 2018134233 Fixed Planar Generator, which is designed for DC output and uses lap wound generating coils. The important aspect for our project is the method to produce that rolling wave excitation.

This Samung stator isn't lap wound and generates best with an alternating NS magnetic field.
We already know that simply pulsing the 'rotor' coils with a single polarity or NS isn't good enough.
The takeaway is that it will take an actual moving field to succeed.

Again WO 2018134233 Fixed Planar Generator does not use alternating NS excitation.

___________

Enter Patent 11336134B2 SOLID STATE MULTI-POLE AND UNI-POLE ELECTRIC GENERATOR ROTOR FOR AC / DC ELECTRIC GENERATORS

See SUMMARY, section 4
"and wires are wound around each salient pole piece such that when the wires of the plurality of salient pole pieces are sequentially excited by an excitation circuit , the salient pole pieces are energized to provide a moving polar magnetic field in the form of distinct magnetic poles as desired to accomplish power generation"

See DETAILED DESCRIPTION, section 18
"Pole circuits may be excited with a first polarity DC power current in a first cycle and the second polarity DC power current in a second cycle. The first and second cycles make up one AC cycle every 16.667 milliseconds in the case of a 60 Hz current ... The excitation wave progresses clockwise which distorts each pole as it is forming , which pushes the magnetic flux in a progressive clockwise fashion by the repelling flux of the preceding poles. This in effect constantly pushes discrete separated magnetic poles in a clockwise circular fashion ...”


This project will require, "a first polarity DC power current in a first cycle and the second polarity DC power current in a second cycle" and obviously a polarity change is performed between those two cycles. And that is why we need to introduce a polarity change in the timing diagram taken from patent WO 2018134233.

Again, this project is not to duplicate a HES generator of any kind. It only uses the HES method above to obtain a moving, 'rolling' excitation wave.

I hope it's all clear for everyone now :)



bistander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 705
Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2023, 03:29:28 PM »
Hi guys,

Watch this gif animation here. It’s important.
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg98977#msg98977
This one    Bf-ZXmid-Cont_HES_LinGen_4Coil-ST37_4msON-Time_1ms_SeqLO_01.gif


SL's Lingen is based on Holcomb's patent WO 2018134233 Fixed Planar Generator, which is designed for DC output and uses lap wound generating coils. The important aspect for our project is the method to produce that rolling wave excitation.

This Samung stator isn't lap wound and generates best with an alternating NS magnetic field.
We already know that simply pulsing the 'rotor' coils with a single polarity or NS isn't good enough.
The takeaway is that it will take an actual moving field to succeed.

Again WO 2018134233 Fixed Planar Generator does not use alternating NS excitation.

___________

Enter Patent 11336134B2 SOLID STATE MULTI-POLE AND UNI-POLE ELECTRIC GENERATOR ROTOR FOR AC / DC ELECTRIC GENERATORS

See SUMMARY, section 4
"and wires are wound around each salient pole piece such that when the wires of the plurality of salient pole pieces are sequentially excited by an excitation circuit , the salient pole pieces are energized to provide a moving polar magnetic field in the form of distinct magnetic poles as desired to accomplish power generation"

See DETAILED DESCRIPTION, section 18
"Pole circuits may be excited with a first polarity DC power current in a first cycle and the second polarity DC power current in a second cycle. The first and second cycles make up one AC cycle every 16.667 milliseconds in the case of a 60 Hz current ... The excitation wave progresses clockwise which distorts each pole as it is forming , which pushes the magnetic flux in a progressive clockwise fashion by the repelling flux of the preceding poles. This in effect constantly pushes discrete separated magnetic poles in a clockwise circular fashion ...”


This project will require, "a first polarity DC power current in a first cycle and the second polarity DC power current in a second cycle" and obviously a polarity change is performed between those two cycles. And that is why we need to introduce a polarity change in the timing diagram taken from patent WO 2018134233.

Again, this project is not to duplicate a HES generator of any kind. It only uses the HES method above to obtain a moving, 'rolling' excitation wave.

I hope it's all clear for everyone now :)

Hi Cadman,
Thanks for the last paragraph. I was thinking you were attempting to replicate Holcomb method in this regard.

Is it possible, or practical/feasible, to excite your 36 coil stator with a 3-phase source, like a VFD? I think you could connect the coils in such a way as to get a decent RMF.

Has anyone else noticed in those animations of flux on the LinGen, only half of the magnetic structure is shown?
bi

kolbacict

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1418
Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2023, 03:41:46 PM »
Rotation of the magnetic field in a three-phase stator on the screen of a kinescope from a TV.
This is much better than using an oscilloscope tube.
In this video, a sinusoidal current filtered from higher harmonics is fed to the stator.
https://youtu.be/WyXYwZmHzgo

kolbacict

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1418
Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2023, 03:58:05 PM »
And in this video, a three-phase current supplied from a frequency converter, unfiltered from higher harmonics.
See the difference...
https://youtu.be/jww9Hyhh9G0
p.s. Very bad camera. The good camera in my phone broke.  It would be much better.

Cadman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2023, 06:14:54 PM »
Hi Cadman,
...
Is it possible, or practical/feasible, to excite your 36 coil stator with a 3-phase source, like a VFD? I think you could connect the coils in such a way as to get a decent RMF.
...
bi

A VFD? Sure, that would be a fine 3PH supply for bench tests, and I happen to have one.
But, can you power it up to a run state when you’re without utility power or any means to feed it the AC it needs? The same question applies to any bench power supply or anything else that needs to be fed mains AC.

Now if someone donated a simple circuit that would take DC from a 5-6 volt or 10-12 volt battery and output a usable 3 phase AC sine then that would be wonderful. I think I already said that somewhere

We can have a battery or some other means of DC current to start it up. That’s both a limitation and requirement for this project. Maybe unspoken, but that along with self running and a usable wattage output is the end goal.


bistander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 705
Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2023, 07:22:09 PM »
kolbacict,
Nicely done, it does demonstrate rotation. Filtering likely would help round out the hex, but I wonder how much that is you needed. Is it a 6 pole stator?
bi

bistander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 705
Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2023, 08:10:53 PM »
A VFD? Sure, that would be a fine 3PH supply for bench tests, and I happen to have one.
But, can you power it up to a run state when you’re without utility power or any means to feed it the AC it needs? The same question applies to any bench power supply or anything else that needs to be fed mains AC.

Now if someone donated a simple circuit that would take DC from a 5-6 volt or 10-12 volt battery and output a usable 3 phase AC sine then that would be wonderful. I think I already said that somewhere

We can have a battery or some other means of DC current to start it up. That’s both a limitation and requirement for this project. Maybe unspoken, but that along with self running and a usable wattage output is the end goal.

Hi Cadman,
Sure, I've used a number of different VFDs on DC (battery) supplies. Commerical VFDs consist of a rectifier, DC link, and inverter. It's typically easy to connect directly to the DC link. Of course a 230 VAC VFD requires ~312 VDC (some can go low as 130VDC). Then you can set the output 3-phase voltage & frequency where you want. But remember your washer motor was for 220V, right? Wonder what the actual coil voltage was.

It might be possible to hack a VFD to lower voltage input, but I've not seen it. I do know there are 3-phase VFDs made for single phase inputs, 110VAC, I think. I've got a standard 3/4kW model where I put a voltage doubler on its rectifier so I can use it in my shop/lab to power induction motors from single phase 110.

As far as your eventual output voltage, that will depend on the turns and coil connections of your armature. (I'm calling the stator the field and the powdered Fe sectors the armature) If you can rectify your output to 200-300VDC, you could certainly use it for a VFD input.

It's easy for me to think the VFD is best because I've got one on the shelf and could have it running in short order. But it's your baby and do what works for you.
bi

ps. Just remembered there are 3-phase motor drives made for low voltage inputs. They are used on battery powered industrial vehicles and golf carts. Even for RC models and probably drones.

Dog-One

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1019
Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2023, 08:21:20 PM »
Just remembered there are 3-phase motor drives made for low voltage inputs. They are used on battery powered industrial vehicles and golf carts. Even for RC models and probably drones.

Yeap.  Take your pick:
https://kellycontroller.com/product-category/kelly-motor-controllers/sinusoidal-brushless/

I have a 24 volt golf cart unit that does not require hall effect sensors.
Worked great for what I used it for.