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Author Topic: Serious HES derivative project proposal  (Read 16596 times)

Online Cadman

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Serious HES derivative project proposal
« on: February 11, 2023, 10:42:40 PM »
Like many here, I have been studying the HES patents and following Solarlab’s Lingen development from the beginning and I find the info he has presented quite convincing. As such I feel like I have at least a basic grasp of the requirements, enough to try a build anyway.

The stumbling block has been the cost risk for even a small proof of concept and my lack of skills with electronic circuits.

However, for awhile now I have had a 36 pole Samsung washing machine motor that I was going to experiment with. Last night it occurred to me that if the Lingen/HES method could be applied to it, it could be the solution to get past that stumbling block. The cost risk would be minimal and if successful it would be a budget way to have a stand alone generator that most here could afford to build.

The Samsung motor is a pretty good 3 phase generator right out of the box. 120V 3PH output is no problem. The stator phases are wired in Wye, 12 poles per phase. There are 12 magnets in the rotor, each with 4 poles oriented NSNS. Every stator coil is induced alternately NS as the rotor turns.

Here’s what makes me think this build is feasible.
1: Each rotor magnet pole is surprisingly weak. It wouldn’t take much in the way of wire and core material to equal the strength of a pole.
2: A 36 pole rotor, if divided into 4 sections, will fit diagonally across a 200mm x 200mm (8" x 8") printer build plate.
3: Rotor laminates can be printed with a thin 3 sided shell filled with polymer bonded iron powder. This will likely eliminate the need for expensive electrical steel and cutting. Depending on thickness, laminates stacked maybe 9 or 10 deep.

Taking inventory, I already have:
The Samsung 36 pole 3 phase stator wound with aluminum wire with a motor rating of 0.6HP, 310V, 2.5A.
Pure iron powder.
Know-how to turn the iron powder into laminates.
A good 3D printer and supplies.
An Eaton 24volt DC PLC with twelve DC inputs and four 24V DC 0.5A triac outputs.
The programming software and the knowledge to use it.
Decades of experience designing, programming and building industrial machine controls with these PLCs.

What I do not have is competent electronic circuit knowledge or real world experience building generators.

IF, after further discussion the project still seems feasible, if a couple of people who I feel are competent with electronic circuit design and or 3 phase / 1 phase generator knowledge will commit to join with me as active advisers I am willing to foot all of the cost and do the construction work to create a 100% transparent open source Samsung motor based generator project.

Do I have any volunteers?  Send me a PM, or post here.



Offline floodrod

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2023, 11:14:54 PM »
I have a box of about 4 of those washing machine PM motors from my days building windmills. Both Samsung and Fisher and Paykel. All 36 Pole models.  Some of the older ones have 48 poles, but I don't have any of them. only 36 poles.

I will be watching and deciding if I will silently build along. Please post details as you build as I may want to mirror the efforts.

Offline ramset

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2023, 11:26:10 PM »
Great idea
Just so it gets more eyes ..?
Perhaps just post a link back to here in Holcomb topics
at both forums where Solarlab has shared?


Very nice indeed !
Will also reach out to possible assets needed!
Respectfully
Chet
Ps
Jimboot ( moderator) could possibly post a link to this replication discussion  thread in first post of Holcomb topic here ?
PPs
IMO
A dedicated moderated build topic here would help expedite progress once decision is made to move forward!




Offline floodrod

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2023, 11:58:07 PM »
Here is a good resource with info on these 36 pole stators and some modifications.  Staggering multiple stators, rewiring, 7 phase  config,  decogging, etc..

Lots of kool electronic stuff too. Even a plan to build a gauss meter..

https://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/Contents.asp#3

(the page is about the F&P Smartdrive- but the Samsung should be pretty much the same.)

Offline bistander

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2023, 03:37:50 AM »
Interesting. It'd be helpful to know SL's progress. But I'm not allowed to ask him. Regarding these posts here, I'll throw out a few comments.

Cogging is irrelevant since there are no PMs and no physical motion.

Powdered iron would be a mistake, IMO. Holcomb's claimed "energy source" is electrical steel. Powdered iron is significantly different in metallurgy and physical structure like grain size vs domain size compared to cold rolled sheet steel.

You could consider using the wound stator as is, sequencing the coils to give a RMF, but only use a sector of rotor (stationary in this case), say around 45°, 60° or 90° to save cost and effort reducing time to test.
bi

Online Cadman

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2023, 05:58:45 AM »
bistander,

Please stop now. I’m you asking you nicely. Don’t pollute this thread like you have the other Holcomb threads.

Your post is unhelpful, irrelevant, and has one false statement, likely deliberate. The claimed gain is from the alignment of the magnetic domains of iron, as I believe you well know. If you really don’t understand the subject…
Educate yourself.


Offline bistander

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2023, 01:36:38 PM »
bistander,

Please stop now. I’m you asking you nicely. Don’t pollute this thread like you have the other Holcomb threads.

Your post is unhelpful, irrelevant, and has one false statement, likely deliberate. The claimed gain is from the alignment of the magnetic domains of iron, as I believe you well know. If you really don’t understand the subject…
Educate yourself.

Hello cadman,
It is not me, but others who are the cause of difficulty.
And the domains are different between finely powdered iron and cold rolled steel. That's exactly my point. Has Holcomb used powdered iron? And if you're attempting to replicate his device/technology, might it not be good not to deviate in the basic claimed energy source/mechanism?
Take or leave my comments as you wish. I'll post where I feel like doing so. Through private messages I know a number of members do find information and opinions from me helpful.
Carry on and good luck.
bi

{edit to add reference}
Quote
Some empirically obtained relationships have been obtained, for
example the coercive field is usually considered to be inversely proportional to the grain
diameter, d, [8-13]. However, there is not unanimity in this relation and the inverse of square
root of d fits well too [14, 15]. The strong correlation between grain size and magnetic
properties is believed to be due to magnetic domain structure and domain wall motion being
affected by grain boundaries [16] because grain boundaries can be considered as obstacles to
magnetic domain wall motion [17-19]
Modelling the Effect of Ferrite
Grain Size on Magnetic Properties
Lei ZHOU
« Last Edit: February 12, 2023, 03:48:49 PM by bistander »

Online Cadman

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Feasibility
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2023, 02:55:12 PM »
Thanks for your help and input ramset and floodrod.

Towards the feasibility of this build.

The stock stator phases are connected like this first image. This image also shows one section of what I have in mind for the iron powder rotor lamination.

These connections are unsuitable for this build because the HES excitation method rolls the magnetic field across multiple rotor coils of the same polarity in a wave. This was confirmed and demonstrated by SL’s CAE preliminary analysis here.
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg98977#msg98977
See:  Bf-Zxmid-Cont_HES_LinGen_4Coil-ST37_4msON-Time_1ms_SeqLO_01.gif

This roll or wave is the very thing that makes it work where similar builds do not, IMHO.

For any particular group of coils we need to roll the field across them in a first wave of one polarity immediately followed by a wave of the second polarity. This info is taken from one of the HES patents.

So this is the first hurdle towards feasibility:
How can we accomplish this with a minimum of parts and expense?


I have a vague idea of using the PLC’s 4 outputs for the required timing sequence, but an Arduino might be easier to use for this. The actual inputs to the coils would be handled by mosfets, perhaps in a half bridge configuration.

I don’t recall any mention in the patents of a configuration that uses less than 4 same pole coils in a series. Please correct me if this isn’t true.
With that in mind we could connect the stator coil phases as shown in the second image?

I need some experienced input here. Do you think this would be the best way forward?

Thank you for your time and consideration.


Online Cadman

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2023, 04:46:18 PM »
bistander,

This is why your comments about the properties of magnetic steel are irrelevant.
Please read https://overunity.com/19375/serious-hes-derivative-project-proposal/msg574064/#msg574064 and consider this project's goals before posting.
Quote
Here’s what makes me think this build is feasible.
1: Each rotor magnet pole is surprisingly weak. It wouldn’t take much in the way of wire and core material to equal the strength of a pole.

I already know from previous experiments that powdered iron has sufficient magnetic gain to be a viable candidate for this project, up to at least 400Hz.

Build tests will confirm one way or another.

I am still hoping for suggestions and ideas regarding my previous post.

Thank you


Offline bistander

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2023, 05:59:33 PM »
bistander,

This is why your comments about the properties of magnetic steel are irrelevant.
Please read https://overunity.com/19375/serious-hes-derivative-project-proposal/msg574064/#msg574064 and consider this project's goals before posting.
I already know from previous experiments that powdered iron has sufficient magnetic gain to be a viable candidate for this project, up to at least 400Hz.

Build tests will confirm one way or another.

I am still hoping for suggestions and ideas regarding my previous post.

Thank you

Hi Cadman,
By "magnetic gain", I presume you mean magnetic permeability, correct? BTW, besides these Holcomb threads, I don't see or can't find articles or definitions stating magnetic permeability is magnetic gain. You might say that is petty, but I actually think it is a core issue. However, let's put that aside.

You say the magnets from the washer motor rotor are weak. No doubt they are compared to neo. There is a large mass of magnet in that motor which needs to be low cost. Other design reasons also dictate that choice of field. But that doesn't mean one should use weak field for a HES replication. In fact, in this case, it will be the the excitation of the coils on the stator teeth (or poles, as some call them) that determine the magnetic field. So the permeability of the material used in the rest of the magnetic circuit needs to be compatible with that used in the existing stator. Powdered iron may be suitable in that respect.

But I suspect that permeability isn't all that is involved with drawing energy from the magnetic domain alignments, as you put it. As I attempted to discuss with SL, the hysteresis characteristics could play a big role. And it is those characteristics, like Hc, which will be affected by the material choice, ie. powdered iron vs cold rolled silicon sheet steel (electrical steel, which Dr. Holcomb mentioned specifically). My opinion is to stick as close as possible to what he did. You, or anybody else, can do whatever.

What is wrong or irrelevant or false about what I've just said?
bi

Online Cadman

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2023, 06:51:47 PM »
Bistander,

Ok you’ve made your point. Enough already. If we were trying to squeeze every last joule out of it, there never has been any doubt that electrical steel is better, and I couldn't care less where Dr. Holcomb claims the energy comes from.


Offline Dog-One

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Re: Feasibility
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2023, 06:52:11 PM »
I have a vague idea of using the PLC’s 4 outputs for the required timing sequence, but an Arduino might be easier to use for this. The actual inputs to the coils would be handled by mosfets, perhaps in a half bridge configuration.

It's buried somewhere early on in the HES thread, but basically I stated using a clock chip,
a shift register chip, four half bridge drivers and a bipolar power source.  As simple as it
can get.  Wire it up, turn it on, and let'r run.  Let me dig a little and see if I can find my
post.

Online Cadman

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2023, 06:52:56 PM »
Perhaps a 3PH generator is a bit too involved to start with? This image is a possibility. A stator setup like this would be similar to 4 Lingens. We would lose the benefits of 3 phases and drop 4 coils from the stator, but at this point all we are shooting for is a viable method with minimal parts.


Online Cadman

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Re: Feasibility
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2023, 06:54:00 PM »
It's buried somewhere early on in the HES thread, but basically I stated using a clock chip,
a shift register chip, four half bridge drivers and a bipolar power source.  As simple as it
can get.  Wire it up, turn it on, and let'r run.  Let me dig a little and see if I can find my
post.

Thank you sir.

Offline Dog-One

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Re: Feasibility
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2023, 06:55:56 PM »