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Author Topic: Serious HES derivative project proposal  (Read 30306 times)

floodrod

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2023, 07:37:12 PM »
Perhaps a 3PH generator is a bit too involved to start with? This image is a possibility. A stator setup like this would be similar to 4 Lingens. We would lose the benefits of 3 phases and drop 4 coils from the stator, but at this point all we are shooting for is a viable method with minimal parts.

My statement may hold no bearing, but attached is the Holcomb magnetic domain image that they use. It shows divisible by 2.

Nine poles would give three phases nicely, but the magnetic domains would not be divisible by 2, thus forcing two same polarities to be next to each other.

Three-phase should also be possible using six poles. Six groups of six poles to make three phases that are divisible by two. But then it deviates from Holcomb's image in that we have opposite polarities on either side from each other, where his image shows like poles on either side.

If we wish to duplicate Holcomb's exact alignment with this rotor, I think our option would be four groups of nine coils.  This would give us a duplication of his image where we have four polarities, and the two across from each other are alike. But then we lose a phase.

Does all this matter? I don't know. Does he use a deceptive image to hide something, I don't know. These are just my observations though
« Last Edit: February 13, 2023, 02:00:21 AM by floodrod »

bistander

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2023, 08:53:09 PM »
Bistander,

Ok you’ve made your point. Enough already. If we were trying to squeeze every last joule out of it, there never has been any doubt that electrical steel is better, and I couldn't care less where Dr. Holcomb claims the energy comes from.

Hi Cadman,
So you're not worried about Hc , but Bsat may have a direct bearing on magnetic performance. That is the saturation flux density of the material. Have you any idea of the value for the powdered Fe bonded mixture you intend to use? It could be 50% or less than that of the electrical steel in the stator. Knowing this ahead of time will allow you to compensate with the design of the shape of the rotor laminate, as you call it. Specifically to make the rotor tooth width sufficiently larger than the width of the stator tooth. Not the tooth tip, but the tooth body width. The other "tight spot" in the rotor portion of the magnetic circuit would be the back iron. Because of the circular area aspect, more real estate is available outside the air gap so features can be thicker (to reduce flux density) without sacrifice of too much winding space. This also will make the parts more ridgid and easier to fabricate and wind.
Take it or leave it. Easier to move a line on the drawing than to remake the part.
bi

Cadman

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2023, 11:57:57 PM »
My statement may hold no bearing, but attached is the Holcomb magnetic domain image that they use. It shows divisible by 2.

Nine poles would give three phases nicely, but the magnetic domains would not be divisible by 2, thus forcing two same polarities to be next to each other.

Three-phase should also be possible using six poles. Six groups of six poles to make three phases that are divisible by two. But then it deviates from Holcomb's image in that we have opposite polarities on either side from each other, where his image shows like poles on either side.

If we wish to duplicate Holcomb's exact alignment with this rotor, I think our option would be four groups of nine coils.  This would give us a duplication of his image where we have four polarities, and the two across from each other are alike. But then we lose the three phases.

Does all this matter? I don't know. Does he use a deceptive image to hide something, I don't know. These are just my observations though

Thanks for that. I was thinking the number of 3 phase coils had to be divisible by 3.

See, I told you I didn't know anything about 3 phase motor building.  ;D


Cadman

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2023, 12:26:44 AM »
Hi Cadman,
So you're not worried about Hc , but Bsat may have a direct bearing on magnetic performance. That is the saturation flux density of the material. Have you any idea of the value for the powdered Fe bonded mixture you intend to use? It could be 50% or less than that of the electrical steel in the stator. Knowing this ahead of time will allow you to compensate with the design of the shape of the rotor laminate, as you call it. Specifically to make the rotor tooth width sufficiently larger than the width of the stator tooth. Not the tooth tip, but the tooth body width. The other "tight spot" in the rotor portion of the magnetic circuit would be the back iron. Because of the circular area aspect, more real estate is available outside the air gap so features can be thicker (to reduce flux density) without sacrifice of too much winding space. This also will make the parts more ridgid and easier to fabricate and wind.
Take it or leave it. Easier to move a line on the drawing than to remake the part.
bi

Thank you bistander,  :)

I have no real idea what the Bsat of the laminate will be ahead of time. I just assumed for a starting point the cross section of the rotor teeth and back iron would need to be close to twice the section of the stator teeth as I can get just to make the permeability better match the stator electrical steel. Working with the powdered iron is going to take some trial and error. There's no way around that when it can't be calculated ahead of time.

It will never be as good as electrical steel but I do know the remanence is much lower than A36 and 1008 low carbon steel, and I believe the coercivity is too.

Who knows, we may get lucky on the first try.

floodrod

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2023, 12:35:27 AM »
Thanks for that. I was thinking the number of 3 phase coils had to be divisible by 3.

See, I told you I didn't know anything about 3 phase motor building.  ;D

I assume we have 3 criteria's:

1. 3 phase preferably
2. Like polarities opposite from each other as the holcolmb image
3. And even pole number so we can properly alternate polarities without having 2 polarities next to each other.

Then I think the only configuration that works with a 36 pole stator is 3 coils in series per pole.  12 poles.
Then 4 poles would connect together per phase. 

If we want to do opposite poles across from each other- there is other options.  I just don't understand all the dynamics yet..

On a side note- Cadman- when you get time-can you explain the pickup part as you envision it?  I have been reading the Holcolmb thread somewhat,  but so many ideas and predictions have been pitched I would like to hear your breakdown and plan.

CuriousChris

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2023, 01:23:03 AM »
@Cadman
Sorry a bit off topic...

you made the following remark...
Quote
Know-how to turn the iron powder into laminates.

I was looking to create a pure magnetic motor that requires a moderate/high permeability, low conductivity steel rotor. I was thinking of using a simple resin-iron powder mix in a mold.

What you said tweaked my interest, are you able to provide links to the technique you are suggesting it may assist me in my endeavours

Cadman

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Re: Feasibility
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2023, 04:03:40 AM »
It's buried somewhere early on in the HES thread, but basically I stated using a clock chip,
a shift register chip, four half bridge drivers and a bipolar power source.  As simple as it
can get.  Wire it up, turn it on, and let'r run.  Let me dig a little and see if I can find my
post.

That's certainly far less expensive than a PLC! I've downloaded the datasheets for the flip-flop and the counter and I'm studying the circuit.

I have some questions about it but I'm short on time, so if you don't mind answering them I'll post them as soon as I can.

Thanks again.


Cadman

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2023, 04:05:27 AM »
I assume we have 3 criteria's:

1. 3 phase preferably
2. Like polarities opposite from each other as the holcolmb image
3. And even pole number so we can properly alternate polarities without having 2 polarities next to each other.

Then I think the only configuration that works with a 36 pole stator is 3 coils in series per pole.  12 poles.
Then 4 poles would connect together per phase. 

If we want to do opposite poles across from each other- there is other options.  I just don't understand all the dynamics yet..

On a side note- Cadman- when you get time-can you explain the pickup part as you envision it?  I have been reading the Holcolmb thread somewhat,  but so many ideas and predictions have been pitched I would like to hear your breakdown and plan.

floodrod,

I think you laid that out nicely.
I have hopes of ending up with a 3 phase or maybe even a 6 phase, eventually. But since this all a shot in the dark at this point I’m leaning toward the 32 coil setup I last posted. Why? Because it would be the quickest way to see if the rolling fields will be viable for producing a decent output. Also it will keep the costs to a bare minimum since it would only need 4 outputs to the rotor coils. You know, start small and work our way up.

There is plenty of room in the interior of the stator to place a proto-board with 36 wire terminal pairs on it. That way the coils could be connected and reconnected to come up with any configuration imaginable.

On a different note….
The stator I have is wound with aluminum wire so once the existing coil connections are cut there’s no going back to a rotating generator. If this project gets off the ground, which is looking more and more likely, I’ll get another stator to modify.

Quote
On a side note- Cadman- when you get time-can you explain the pickup part as you envision it?
I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you you mean by ‘the pickup part’. Can you clarify that please?
I’ll be happy to try to explain anything can.


Cadman

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2023, 04:18:46 AM »
@Cadman
Sorry a bit off topic...

you made the following remark...
I was looking to create a pure magnetic motor that requires a moderate/high permeability, low conductivity steel rotor. I was thinking of using a simple resin-iron powder mix in a mold.

What you said tweaked my interest, are you able to provide links to the technique you are suggesting it may assist me in my endeavours

The permeability of the polymer bonded powdered iron is inferior to electrical steels. And it's nothing at all like a powdered ferrite that has been bonded and sintered.
The main reason I use it is because it's almost pure soft iron.

That being said, the technique is my own. It's just the powder poured into a mold, the polymer added, and then it's compressed with a weight until it's dry. Heating it to 200F in an old counter top oven for 30 minutes (depends on the thickness) with the weight on it will cure the polymer.




floodrod

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2023, 04:19:43 AM »
floodrod,

I think you laid that out nicely.
I have hopes of ending up with a 3 phase or maybe even a 6 phase, eventually. But since this all a shot in the dark at this point I’m leaning toward the 32 coil setup I last posted. Why? Because it would be the quickest way to see if the rolling fields will be viable for producing a decent output. Also it will keep the costs to a bare minimum since it would only need 4 outputs to the rotor coils. You know, start small and work our way up.

There is plenty of room in the interior of the stator to place a proto-board with 36 wire terminal pairs on it. That way the coils could be connected and reconnected to come up with any configuration imaginable.

On a different note….
The stator I have is wound with aluminum wire so once the existing coil connections are cut there’s no going back to a rotating generator. If this project gets off the ground, which is looking more and more likely, I’ll get another stator to modify.
I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you you mean by ‘the pickup part’. Can you clarify that please?
I’ll be happy to try to explain anything can.

Gotcha...

Regarding the pickup-coil question, I guess I don't understand the concept fully.  I thought this was similar to Pierre's build of rotating magnetic fields.  And in his, I see what appears to be a pickup coil right in the center of the stator. I assumed the rotating magnetic fields get amplified by the core steel / iron and inducts a pickup coil in some manner.

I guess his build is completely different.  I will need to read more on it to grasp the concept before I can be of any help here. 

Cadman

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2023, 04:28:30 AM »
I see. That's a 2 pole rotor in Pierre's setup. Just like in some regular generator heads

I have to work 12 hour days this week so I won't have much time to spend on this project.

I need to come up with some graphics to better explain what I have in mind instead of just assuming interested people understand it already.

Here are some links that Solarlab provided. If you can find a couple of hours to look at the posts it will help with understanding what I'm getting at. His animated gifs are really helpful.

If you take a 90 degree section of my 32 coil stator drawing that has 8 coils in it and think of it as SL's Lingen I think you'll see. His excitation coils are on the bottom, mine are outside of the stator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Initial thoughts (applications, etc. 2022-04-05):

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg98375#msg98375

Patent link (initial target patent):

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg98509#msg98509

Preliminary field roll tests:

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg98891#msg98891
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg98892#msg98892

Magnetic Field Gain simulation tests:

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg98900#msg98900
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg98901#msg98901
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg98908#msg98908

Flat Solid-State Rotor WO 2018 134233 Holcomb:

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg98965#msg98965

Simulation Configuration (various and corrected timing?):

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg98965#msg98965
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg98977#msg98977

Timing:

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg99028#msg99028

Brassboard and CAE results:

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg99112#msg99112
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg99113#msg99113
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg99114#msg99114

ADDED  by me (Cadman): https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg98977#msg98977
See Bf-ZXmid-Cont_HES_LinGen_4Coil-ST37_4msON-Time_1ms_SeqLO_01.gif


CuriousChris

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2023, 08:55:49 AM »
That being said, the technique is my own. It's just the powder poured into a mold, the polymer added, and then it's compressed with a weight until it's dry. Heating it to 200F in an old counter top oven for 30 minutes (depends on the thickness) with the weight on it will cure the polymer.
Thanks, very similar to what I was intending. At least I know I am on the right track.

Cadman

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2023, 05:40:11 AM »
Hello Dog-One,

Regarding your HES Driver Board Rev: 1B
Firstly, is the shape of the output wave forms the same as this timing image, and is it continuous as long as power is applied?

I think I understand most of the circuit but I can't figure out how the counter-oscillator operates.
In the second image below:
I'm assuming the offsets for coils 2, 3, and 4 are multiples of the offset of coil 1. Correct?
How do we control or change the offsets, on time, and period depicted in the attached timing image?
Also, is the offset, on time, and period static or dynamic during run time?

I sure would appreciate some help to understand this.



Dog-One

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2023, 06:55:51 AM »
Firstly, is the shape of the output wave forms the same as this timing image, and is it continuous as long as power is applied?

Unfortunately not.  My circuit ALWAYS energizes a coil, either positive or negative
polarity.  It does NOT have a neutral/off position, also known as tri-state outputs.
It does run continuous yes.

I think I understand most of the circuit but I can't figure out how the counter-oscillator operates.
In the second image below:
I'm assuming the offsets for coils 2, 3, and 4 are multiples of the offset of coil 1. Correct?
How do we control or change the offsets, on time, and period depicted in the attached timing image?
Also, is the offset, on time, and period static or dynamic during run time?

I sure would appreciate some help to understand this.

The oscillator chip is both an oscillator and clock divider making it much easier to
dial-in the frequency you want.  You simply pick a single output and feed that to
the shift register chip.  They call it a ripple counter which is basically just a bunch
of divide by two blocks.  So the further down the string you are, the more divisions
of the initial oscillator frequency you get.

That link to my earlier post has a video depicting its operation driving LEDs.
If instead of LEDs, you were driving half-bridges with a bipolar power source,
when the LED was on, you would get one polarity and when the LED was off,
you would get the opposite polarity.

I designed this little circuit based on what I saw in Holcomb's patent and
the way he described the timing.  For SL's LinGen, this may not be appropriate--
not really sure what he is doing with his micro-controller.  If SL is sweeping
back-n-forth instead of just going in one direction as you would with a circular
set of coils, my circuit would need some changes.

kolbacict

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Re: Serious HES derivative project proposal
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2023, 09:16:51 AM »
Don't you think that there is a fundamental difference between the sinusoidal three-phase voltage that we have from the outlet. And the one that we get with the help of mosfets, relays, switching with brushes and a collector, and so on (meandr) ? And they behave in the stator a little differently. Even from my frequency converter for asynchronous PWM motors, the
signal is not quite clean. One smart person from Odessa pointed this out to me.