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Author Topic: Is this the beginning of the end?  (Read 30622 times)

Willy

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?
« Reply #180 on: March 22, 2023, 11:24:13 PM »
@Wesley

I have been reading this forum for more than a decade now.

Don't let the trolls or any others discourage you, or take the enjoyment out of
what you do here.

No doubt, you are one the most knowledgeable, experienced and valuable
people on the forum.

Willy

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?
« Reply #181 on: March 22, 2023, 11:29:37 PM »
You still need to bring the hydrogen up to 1 bar for sea level electrolysis.
I don't see how hydrolysis to 1 bar is giving enough lifting power to raise itself and then be burned, even at low losses.

If you find a way (I've recently heard some) to achieve cheap electrolysis at significant pressure, you may gain energy from the rise to the surface and then up a tall lift.

Don't tell the environmentalists though, because you'd just ending up heating the atmosphere more efficiently than a diesel truck :)

"Given that the electrical energy input to do electrolysis is equal to the thermal energy produced in the electrolysis process plus the energy of combustion of the hydrogen ? (thermodynamic law) ...

Any energy acquired by rising of the hydrogen in atmosphere, due to gravity, is over unity."


I take it then, that you do not dispute that the process is over unity.

Cloxxki

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?
« Reply #182 on: March 23, 2023, 12:13:57 AM »
It is a simple answer. This forum is  under attack of few newbies  whose agenda is  unlikely theirs but their supervisors.
I should  have donate all of that money to this forum many years ago  and sign off.
 Stefan would have some return from  his  voluntary activity  that is not easy to handle.
He is also paying for some Russian trolls to be able to  write here.

This forum   has a nice group of quite  talented thinkers.
Please understand  that Putin and his terrorists don't obey any language of peace and cooperation.
The only language they understand is  brutal force, restrictions, sanctions, closed doors and over 160 000 killed Russian troops  in Ukraine.
Today I'm likely the main target for them on this forum, - tomorrow  it will be  someone else.
Soviet Union - Russia was chapped  into pieces in 1990 and they  will   collapse again soon.
 Unpleasant, smelly  collapsing economy  where  average income is ~$150 per month is the result of
Russian's: 
               "Let's see what they will do if we attack Ukraine."
and now it is:
                "Let's see what they will do if we attack this forum"

At best  for them will be : If I don't have anything on hand.
At worse : due to advanced technology Russia will collapse  faster ..
Dear Trolls  spray me with virus again, make me suffer.
Find  how much  of my story is a lie :) 
The decision is yours Stefan .
With all due respect

opinion expressed is my own.

Wesley
My superiors are getting impatient with my efforts to get you to see the errors of your way and behave like a man who still has all his marbles.
Before long, they'll be pushing me aside and make your phone ring.

Cloxxki

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?
« Reply #183 on: March 23, 2023, 12:21:01 AM »
"Given that the electrical energy input to do electrolysis is equal to the thermal energy produced in the electrolysis process plus the energy of combustion of the hydrogen ? (thermodynamic law) ...

Any energy acquired by rising of the hydrogen in atmosphere, due to gravity, is over unity."


I take it then, that you do not dispute that the process is over unity.
English is not my native language, apologies for being less clear with my : NO.

NO I don't think it's overunity, as you need to generate and combust the hydrogen at the pressures valid in their respectively environment. You've added a layer of complexity to the classic buoyancy mind puzzles, but these added layers themselves don't introduce overunity. You're merely ignoring parts of their energy expense. In my very limited understanding of physics.

Hydrogen electrolysis to my knowledge doesn't give free buoyancy energy. You need to insert the energy for all that buoyancy first to local pressure.

Name your cheap electrolysis method at high pressure and prove it to exist. It would be cheaper than conventional, thus the green warriors will make you their king, just to get the stuff into a fuel cell or war head.

Willy

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?
« Reply #184 on: March 23, 2023, 02:11:18 AM »
Any energy acquired by rising of the hydrogen in atmosphere, due to gravity, is over unity."

Your reply is "no", this is not so to your understanding.  Ok. 

If it is not so, then the electrical input in the process must not be equal to the output of the process. Physics laws say that they must be, exactly equal. This was a given in my statement.

This statement by me ...

"GIVEN that the electrical energy input to do electrolysis is equal to the thermal energy produced in the electrolysis process plus the energy of combustion of the hydrogen ? (thermodynamic law) ...

Are you saying that they are unequal.  I don't think you are. 

I am saying, that even in the circumstance, wherein the hydrogen rises only a few hundred feet
(330 feet or 100 meters) in atmosphere that energy is in excess of the balance of the equation. It is Over Unity.
in example ...  1.2 kilograms at 100 meters height worth of energy would need to be missing from the combustion of 1 cubic meter of hydrogen (generated at sea level) when it is burned at 100 meters above sea level.

                                  Do you think this is so ?

sm0ky2

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?
« Reply #185 on: March 23, 2023, 05:02:41 AM »
Those that know the truth and the lies propagated by academia
find it pointless to argue with the thermodynamically indoctrinated.


If you “don’t believe in OU”, go buy a tuning fork (the fancy ones that can hold a note and comes with a hammer), pick up an acoustic chamber tuned to your fork.


Measure the energy in and out.
And when you are finished, you have all the tool’s necessary to apply your new knowledge to every area of physics.


That is overunity of the 1st kind: direct interaction and reaction


Magnetism and Gravity each fall into their own category, though they can be used in combination
Buoyancy is a manifestation of gravity, so a gravity/ buoyancy system is just using both sides of the ‘field’


These (and electromagnetic devices) are overunity of the 2nd kind: having an intermediary or exchange mechanism.


As you ponder these conditions, consider why it is that we expend massive amounts of energy in our homes,
To LOWER the thermal energy state?


Energy is relative


The Earth saw no change in internal energy
You only moved some heat from inside your house to outside your house.
The change in energy came in the form of heat produced by the electronics that moved the heat
adding to the heat of the atmosphere.
And the heat released producing that electricity at the power plant.
So the earth only sees the fuel being converted to heat.


Excluding our electronics, Within the volume


quite frankly there are much better ways of doing that, even some that produce energy from the temperature differential.


But they will sell you on this ‘carnot efficiency’ b.s. so you keep buying A/C systems and paying your power bill (and subsequent taxes). [this is i believe the motivation behind thermodynamic thumpers pushing curriculum in the accredited college courses)


What a thermodynamicist is reluctant to explain to you is that the carnot cycle also works in reverse.
we can gain energy equivalent to (up to 50%) of the heat energy we are moving.


What they also don’t tell you is that the entire theory of thermodynamics hinges on a choice in perspective.


What systems are you observing?
From which perspective?


Take the A/C:
We observe this device from the terms of energy input
and heat differential from the resultant process.


It “costs us” some quantity of energy to move heat from one side to the other.
We assume this system to begin at thermodynamic equilibrium,
Our energy spent is equal to the difference in initial and final temperature of a volume
of atmosphere surrounding our home, equivalent to the volume inside our house.
Plus the losses in our mechanical system.


Thats 150% of the energy required to move the heat.


Which, done by another process (and observational perspective) would provide 30% of that value as output energy, (relatively) costing us nothing to allow the heat to move itself.


[if you do not understand how such a thing is possible, please at your next convenience, take temperature measurements of the ambient, within and outside of a ‘shadow’ or at a depth slightly below ground]


———————————————


Thermodynamic inequalities:


Certain quotients are not compatible to thermodynamic analysis:


Such as gravity/buoyancy, and magnetism (atomic/molecular/“permanent”)


We are accustomed to the mechanics of a Hot Air Baloon
In this system, the energy required to achieve a buoyant state using atmosphere as a medium
and Heat as the mechanism: is greater than the gravitational potential gained from the process.


Replace this process with a low energy exchange mechanism, and buoyant gravitational potential is free,
Or provided in conjunction with the devices output.
This is the basis of buoyancy-gravity devices, some consume more than the output
Some consume less, and only one is exactly at equilibrium with it’s own buoyant exchange mechanism.
(under Earth conditions)


Why is there an lack of equivalent translation?
Take air for example: add heat to air it expands by a specific volume per unit heat
Other atoms or molecules perform differently. There is no standard.
Some are above or below the energy line from our perspective.
Meaning using heat to create buoyant states can be either over or under unity from our perspective observation. Helium and Hydrogen are two of the molecules that have a negative exchange mechanism.
“OU molecules” still have doubts? Go study the natural Hydrogen Cycle.


Magnetism is often viewed as a “conservative field”.
This is only a matter of mathematical convenience.
We study symmetrical fields, in either locked or free motion.


Looking at symmetrical fields where both magnets are free to move,
Or cases where one magnet is free and the other is locked: conform (mostly) to thermodynamic representations of magnetism.


Observe an asymmetrical magnetic field or field interactions where the motion is constrained:
and we see a completely different picture than the one presented by thermodynamic theory.


————————————————————-


Magnetism is often equated to gravity:


These two forces are not equivalent.
They do not behave the same


And as such, energy differentials can be obtained between the two interacting forces.
These differentials are present both mathematically, and in real world experimentation.
quite in contrast to thermodynamic theory.


Thermodynamics is the only physical “law” which contradicts itself, cannot be empirically proven, yet is still considered a physical “law”. Personally, i cannot agree with this assessment, experience has indicated the opposite.


———————————————————————


Entropy:


Ed Leedskalnin’s Perpetual Motion Holder
where does entropy take place in a closed magnetic loop?


There is more, but let this little bit soak in…..












sm0ky2

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?
« Reply #186 on: March 23, 2023, 05:09:40 AM »
And Cloxxi
I would love to engage your superiors in sophisticated physics debates concerning this matter.
Please feel free to have them contact me.

sm0ky2

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?
« Reply #187 on: March 23, 2023, 05:21:54 AM »
English is not my native language, apologies for being less clear with my : NO.

NO I don't think it's overunity, as you need to generate and combust the hydrogen at the pressures valid in their respectively environment. You've added a layer of complexity to the classic buoyancy mind puzzles, but these added layers themselves don't introduce overunity. You're merely ignoring parts of their energy expense. In my very limited understanding of physics.

Hydrogen electrolysis to my knowledge doesn't give free buoyancy energy. You need to insert the energy for all that buoyancy first to local pressure.

Name your cheap electrolysis method at high pressure and prove it to exist. It would be cheaper than conventional, thus the green warriors will make you their king, just to get the stuff into a fuel cell or war head.


Lets use 2 fuel cells, 1 in reverse performing electrolysis


A modern cell pair can generate hydrogen, then convert it back to electricity at 60% efficiency.
Meaning 40% of our energy was lost to the process.


now: at 1/2 cycle we have 2 gasses, O2 and H2 (in theoretically stoichiometric quantities)


The buoyancy of Hydrogen is far greater than necessary to lift its mass in oxygen to any desired height, with a negative energy factor : yes it costs us energy to hold the hydrogen to the ground.


Allow both gasses to rise to height (x).
Then direct them into the second fuel cell:


Now we have heavy mass H2O at height (x) times gravity
In excess to our 60% initial electrical energy.


News flash: height (x) is an indeterminate variable, we can choose this value to be anythinng we want, free of charge.




Insert the height at which energy in - energy out = 0.


Then fail to constrain the buoyant force for a single millimeter beyond that height


You are  past the point of Unity
What then do you call this energy state?







BorisKrabow

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?
« Reply #188 on: March 23, 2023, 05:54:40 AM »
Why such complex and expensive checks for free energy.
everything is simple: we take a substance with a strongly oscillating core and touch a piezoelectric / ferroelectric. Further, the oscillation of the nucleus turns into electrical discharges. Since the rotation of the core cannot be stopped, you have in your hands a cell with electricity for 100 trillion years.      Under test....

            https://overunity.com/19339/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end/msg575424/#msg575424   picture here

      refer to                     Dr   John Hutchison    ,    Also     US20140252920A1

Cloxxki

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?
« Reply #189 on: March 23, 2023, 11:56:20 AM »

Lets use 2 fuel cells, 1 in reverse performing electrolysis


A modern cell pair can generate hydrogen, then convert it back to electricity at 60% efficiency.
Meaning 40% of our energy was lost to the process.


now: at 1/2 cycle we have 2 gasses, O2 and H2 (in theoretically stoichiometric quantities)


The buoyancy of Hydrogen is far greater than necessary to lift its mass in oxygen to any desired height, with a negative energy factor : yes it costs us energy to hold the hydrogen to the ground.


Allow both gasses to rise to height (x).
Then direct them into the second fuel cell:


Now we have heavy mass H2O at height (x) times gravity
In excess to our 60% initial electrical energy.


News flash: height (x) is an indeterminate variable, we can choose this value to be anythinng we want, free of charge.




Insert the height at which energy in - energy out = 0.


Then fail to constrain the buoyant force for a single millimeter beyond that height


You are  past the point of Unity
What then do you call this energy state?
I'm not qualified to do the calculations, but keep in mind that the atmosphere only provides 1 bar to work with.
As you build a higher lift, there are diminishing returns, every minute step of the way.
You play with immense energy but for the OU part you only address their relative mass for buoyancy.

Such a build, even by your calcs, would seek to squeeze out tiny bit of theoretical OU, from a structure that wouldn't be much easier to build than the next tallest building in the world. Using a deep decommissioned mine might be a way around it, but still brings in huge running costs. Playing with H and O underground in, imagine that...

Even IF you somehow find a process that's OU, you won't be able to sell energy at an attractive rate. All this time oldering some wind turbines and solar panels on Alibaba would have been the more profitable thing to do.

I like the creativity of combining chemistry and physics, though...

ramset

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?
« Reply #190 on: March 23, 2023, 03:01:18 PM »
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dNs_kNilSjk
Perhaps there is a path towards some passive heat manipulation?
Results at 47 minute mark


I agree with presenter ( amazing) and we can make our own .( he teaches how step by step)


Managing the heat in our environment is truly a path we need to understand better,
Aerogels with phenomenal values etc etc !


Also for a better understanding..first few minutes shows the science

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5zW9_ztTiw8

Respectfully
Chet

Willy

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?
« Reply #191 on: March 23, 2023, 03:08:27 PM »
@ Cloxxki

Basically I agree.

In that, generating a cubic meter of hydrogen in order to reap a relativly small number of joules by raising 1.2 kilo grams to some number of meters height, in and of itself is probably not very economically viable. Gravity is not a very strong force.

Not the point of my statments, how ever.

kolbacict

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?
« Reply #192 on: March 23, 2023, 05:26:20 PM »
No wonder I remembered the deportation of citizens of the USSR during the Second World War .
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/18/biden-administration-russia-deportations
There is nothing new under the sun.

@ Cloxxki

Basically I agree.

In that, generating a cubic meter of hydrogen in order to reap a relativly small number of joules by raising 1.2 kilo grams to some number of meters height, in and of itself is probably not very economically viable. Gravity is not a very strong force.

Not the point of my statments, how ever.
The main thing in this process is not the rise of hydrogen, but the lowering of water formed during combustion from a height.

onepower

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?
« Reply #193 on: March 23, 2023, 05:41:27 PM »
I agree with Stivep and found there is no such thing as OU and in fact it's not needed.

OU is just a generic term used by people who don't understand energy or where the extra energy in FE devices could come from. In fact all the greatest free energy inventors like Tesla, Moray, Hendershot, Hubbard never claimed OU they claimed the energy was atmospheric or cosmic in it's nature. When the real experts with working technology say it's not OU we should believe them.

Here's a clue, Richard Feynman and Wheeler calculated there is enough energy in a volume of space as big as your fist to boil all the worlds oceans. If this is true nobody needs OU or something from nothing because all space is already a vast sea of energy.

I also think Stivep makes a really good point that many may be pushing OU to distract from the real facts. What better way to distract and misdirect than claim the extra energy appears out of nowhere?. Obviously the energy doesn't just come from nowhere and all the real FE inventors claimed the process was easy to understand. I just find it a little strange that so few are talking about where the extra energy could come from or the reasons why.

AC


Willy

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end?
« Reply #194 on: March 23, 2023, 05:59:50 PM »
I agree with Stivep and found there is no such thing as OU and in fact it's not needed.

OU is just a generic term used by people who don't understand energy or where the extra energy in FE devices could come from. In fact all the greatest free energy inventors like Tesla, Moray, Hendershot, Hubbard never claimed OU they claimed the energy was atmospheric or cosmic in it's nature. When the real experts with working technology say it's not OU we should believe them.

Here's a clue, Richard Feynman and Wheeler calculated there is enough energy in a volume of space as big as your fist to boil all the worlds oceans. If this is true nobody needs OU or something from nothing because all space is already a vast sea of energy.

I also think Stivep makes a really good point that many may be pushing OU to distract from the real facts. What better way to distract and misdirect than claim the extra energy appears out of nowhere?. Obviously the energy doesn't just come from nowhere and all the real FE inventors claimed the process was easy to understand. I just find it a little strange that so few are talking about where the extra energy could come from or the reasons why.

AC

@AC

Do you really think that the phrase "Over unity" means something from nothing?
If so, then....

Show me a single quote on this entire forum where in it is stated that energy comes from nothing.
Show me a single quote on this entire forum where in it is stated that energy comes from nowhere.

Exception ...
People like unto your self, who do not understand very much and therefore insist that OU must then mean something from nothing.

You    found    there is no such thing as Over Unity?  Wow, just wow.

Richard Feynman and Wheeler gave us the clue (and not you) when they "calculated there is enough energy in a volume of space as big as your fist to boil all the worlds oceans. If this is true nobody needs something from nothing because all space is already a vast sea of energy."

Not only that but also, every real world thing of which you are aware of, is composed entirely of energy.