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Author Topic: Self Induction Circuit Project- Working with No Hot Wire....  (Read 18351 times)

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Self Induction Circuit Project- Working with No Hot Wire....
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2022, 11:17:21 AM »
i’m thinking this is why it exists outside the diode


You are picking up the field collapse


(My theory anyhow)

Offline floodrod

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Re: Self Induction Circuit Project- Working with No Hot Wire....
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2022, 02:32:36 PM »
I documented some current measurements in different places..

I am inserting .081 A into the closed circuit and I have a total of .12A  when adding up amperage in both branches.

The question lies, is there a way to utilize the .081A of power after the diodes.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Self Induction Circuit Project- Working with No Hot Wire....
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2022, 04:15:52 PM »
You’re output
This is out of phase isnt it?

Blue Trace is me switching DC Polarities to the coils with the H Bridge.  (output of the H Bridge)
Yellow Trace is the the Back EMF on the input side of the H bridge- coming back into the supply..

With the diode, you can separate the Back EMF and prevent it from going into the supply..  Then use it for something else.

My Explanation:   :

If you put AC into a primary of a transformer with the secondary open, the primary pulls like no current..  This is because a coil inside a core produces equal Back EMF as the input..  So it all cancels out.. (minus inefficiencies like eddy currents, flux leakage, etc)..

Now put a triac (in my case a diode because I am converting DC)  in line to stop the back EMF  from cancelling out the input current..  Now current into the transformer SKYROCKETS ,  and you can use the back EMF as you like.

I haven't tested yet, but my theory suggests if I redirect and use the Back EMF then connect the secondary of the transformer to a load,  I will kill the whole Back EMF advantage.


Offline floodrod

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Re: Self Induction Circuit Project- Working with No Hot Wire....
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2022, 11:51:46 PM »
Not sure how helpful this part is,  but the back EMF can be split between negative and positive.  But from scope shots, looks very advantageous..

When I take only positive lead back EMF, voltage in the coil circuit becomes 1 polarity pulses.  When you take both sides back EMF, it takes evenly from both sides of the sine wave.

I will get more measurements later tonight

Offline floodrod

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Re: Self Induction Circuit Project- Working with No Hot Wire....
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2022, 06:03:11 AM »
Yes the negative side of the supply is quite impressive!

With a diode on the supply Negative Only-  (No diode on the Supply Positive)..

Supply is set to 8V..  And I have 9V on either side of the negative lead diode..  The supply Negative terminal is 9 Volts hotter than the negative lead of H-Bridge!  I can pull power from the negative terminal of a battery and send it to the hot terminal...  I tested on a car battery also.

The whole thing acts strange though..  It acts like pickup coils, meaning I can not pull more amperage from the supply when connecting loads anywhere....   And there definitely are sweet spots in regards to frequency, core alignments, and input voltage..  Send too much in and the Back EMF goes down..  (maybe saturation?)

No progress so far tapping the transformer AC side yet..  It takes power to cause this effect.  But there are literally thousands of ideas to try now. 

The whole point is, I am 100% sure back EMF acts like a ping-pong table..  The input current needs to travel to the induction coils first.  Then the coils back EMF returns it to the source.  It doesn't have to go back to the source and beat down your input current.  Back EMF can be filtered out, harvested, and used. 

I am attaching a picture of the back EMF in Positive and Negative sides.   (diodes on both leads)

Offline floodrod

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Re: Self Induction Circuit Project- Working with No Hot Wire....
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2022, 05:32:35 PM »
I am on the verge..... With a magnet rotor-   Hooked up so Back EMF gets greater than driving voltage..  The FET's on the H bridge won't fire and switch polarity when back EMF gets greater than driving power, so the rotor slows..  Slowing rotor makes the Back EMF dwindle down and the Mosfets start firing again..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Cl-vrkDMQ8


I need to change the H-bridge for mechanical switching next..

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Self Induction Circuit Project- Working with No Hot Wire....
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2022, 05:46:25 PM »
If you place a 2-3 layer sheet steel, vertically like a wall,
Between the (open) transformer
And the pancake coil


Does this change things?

Offline floodrod

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Re: Self Induction Circuit Project- Working with No Hot Wire....
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2022, 06:31:40 PM »
If you place a 2-3 layer sheet steel, vertically like a wall,
Between the (open) transformer
And the pancake coil


Does this change things?

I have moved the transformer 3+ feet away and no change.  Same result. 

I just hooked up relay switching and put the H-bridge away..  It starts and gets up to speed..  But the it shuts down my supply when it reaches decent RPM..  The difference in voltage potential on each side of a diode on the negative lead is greater than the input voltage..  The negative lead of the supply actually has  MORE Voltage than the positive lead..  The supply does not like this and shuts off.

It may be possible to get it up to speed, then run it from a negative terminal.  Still working on that part..

Offline MagnaProp

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Re: Self Induction Circuit Project- Working with No Hot Wire....
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2022, 12:58:11 AM »
Thank you floodrod for doing and presenting this work. It is greately appreciated and looks really good!

Offline floodrod

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Re: Self Induction Circuit Project- Working with No Hot Wire....
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2022, 02:07:45 AM »
Thank you floodrod for doing and presenting this work. It is greately appreciated and looks really good!

Sure thing, more to come..


Next update-  Mechanical switching sucks...  I scoped it and mechanical switching turns it into a flyback machine..  I am not investigating flyback at this point. It seems the breaking of the circuit when switching is causing ill effects.

I switched back to the H bridge and am using a normal standard drive coil now with the primary of the transformer.  I took out the weird double pancake..
The effects are very good with a normal coil.. No need for the fancy pancake.

I caught a pic right when the motor was between speedup and slowdown change, so I can share the scope shot.

My initial thought that the mosfets were not firing on slowdown seems incorrect.  My input square wave remained..  But on speed-up, so much self-induction happens that the back EMF exceeds the input voltage so it starts to slow.  When a certain RPM is met, it starts speeding up again and back EMF starts to skyrocket.

Putting load on the rotor keeps the speedup (massive back EMF) happening.. 

Next I will repeat the capacitor catch test with the H-bridge hookup that is self-inducting. 

Offline floodrod

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Re: Self Induction Circuit Project- Working with No Hot Wire....
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2022, 02:42:06 AM »
Got nice clear video showing Scope of the Back EMF + the driving power on speedup and slow-down..

Put the rotor under load and it stays on "Speed-Up mode" ROCKING the back EMF and self induction..

Did Capacitor test..  Supply set to 6V..  Capacitor collects 16V almost instantly when the "speed-up" Back EMF occurs.  6v is from the supply, and 10 additional are from the Back EMF.

Loop the Cap back to input, and the "Speed-Up"  and Back EMF Circus stops happening. (even under load).

Need to figure out how to direct this "Back EMF" into the motor..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi2OeNcLY3A

Offline floodrod

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Re: Self Induction Circuit Project- Working with No Hot Wire....
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2022, 02:05:10 AM »
I drew it all out and tested.. Spot On!

In this presentation we assume the battery negative terminal is ZERO..  We will reference from that..  We cross the boundary into the negative voltage territories..  Meaning less voltage than the negative terminal..  Astounding!

Next I will load test all configurations.  The most intriguing is the 3rd one..  Criss-Cross.  Take load from 18 to 0...  Then take load from 12 to -6..   Combined gives us a differential of 36V

I see 3 dimensions or layers here.. 

Top drawing- 24 to 12 gives us 12V. 
Middle Drawing- +12 to -12 gives us 24V.
Bottom Drawing-  Criss Cross.  +12 to -6 gives us 18 Volts.  And +18 to 0 gives us another 18.  Totaling 36V

My thought pattern is-  If Overunity is achievable, it is going to have to utilize Negative Voltages BELOW the negative terminal of the source.  And we have it here..

I have my predictions about what is happening.  I do not think current and voltages are flowing in the directions we would think with this setup.  I will also be verifying this with my scope and amp-meter.

Spoiler- I am predicting the Back EMF in this setup is  is sending Voltage and Amperage in opposite directions.  Amps against the input and Volts with the input.   but I know how to verify this and will report back.



Offline floodrod

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Re: Self Induction Circuit Project- Working with No Hot Wire....
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2022, 07:29:16 PM »
A little update with my investigation.

Alternating current going into transformer with secondary open. Transformer pulls no current, as we all know, and is documented. Any current the primary pulls is just because of inefficiencies.

Reason being, a coil inside a core which is capturing all of the magnetic field produces 100% back EMF. Thus canceling out all forward current.

Using a diode, or a triac, you could extract some of this back EMF before it gets to the source. And essentially run things backwards, or upstream from the back EMF alone. Tested and verified..

When adding a motor into the mix, we attempt to add even more back EMF into the system. Motor gets to a state where it sends so much back EMF that it counters the forward current in the very driving coil, causing the motor to slow. Once slowed, back EMF and forward amperage kick up again causing the motor to increase..  The motor slows right when it is about to go over unity.

Voltage direction is mysterious. Current direction is pretty obvious.

The slower we pulse, the larger the back EMF amplitude is. Possible to get More than three times the terminal voltage from the source..

Going through many avenues currently to try to fully understand more and see if there is a way to produce more back EMF than forward power. Then use it.

I am still unclear on a lot of it, but trying to work methodically too get the answers.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Self Induction Circuit Project- Working with No Hot Wire....
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2022, 03:26:41 AM »
Few Updates:

1.  Self Induction gets massively bigger and better by using a 1:1 transformer and tying both sides in parallel.. This synchronizes the magnetic fields inducting into each other.  As current passes through them, they try to cancel each others magnetic field out by growing the same field they are already polarized to.  The south pole sees a North pole, so even more south inducts!  Then the North Pole sees a South Pole so it Grows the North Pole!  The Flux grows itself by trying to cancel the other out.

 I am going to have to experiment with a 2nd transformer on the negative side..  Perhaps even have them on a switch so one is in attract one is in repel, and switch when the AC sine wave switches.  I tried with 1 way pulses and had no luck.  It needs alternating current to self induct.

2.  Frequency..  Switching Speed..  Switching polarities slowly produces MUCH MORE Self Inductance..  I am going off on a limb here,  but I theorize my back EMF voltage and current are 180 degrees out of phase.  Since current lags voltage by 90 degrees with an inductive load, it is inducting, then inducting from the induction,  thus pushing the current back an additional 90 degrees.  Of course this is just my assumption at this point.

But switching slowly amplifies the self induction and allows the circuit to flow real amperage. 
Slow switching can easily push the DC voltage 3-4+ times the batteries positive terminal voltage.  A 6V supply can easily fill my capacitor to over 24V. And instantly at that.

The voltage gain is In-Phase with the input voltage. I am sure it is going the right way we want.  So I am thinking I must ensure my load is always AFTER the transformers, and never before.  If the load is before the transformer, it amplifies it right into the negative return, thus blowing all the gain.

Another option might be placing a 3rd coil inside the core as a collector right between the 2 in parallel.  If the flux is doubling as I think it is, maybe something good will occur.

Offline truesearch

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Re: Self Induction Circuit Project- Working with No Hot Wire....
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2022, 02:46:03 PM »
@floodrod

I'm impressed with what you're doing. Keep us posted.

truesearch