Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

2022 builders survivor board => General Builders discussion => Topic started by: citfta on August 19, 2022, 10:00:12 PM

Title: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 19, 2022, 10:00:12 PM
i didn't want to pollute anyone else's threads with my rambling ideas so decided to start my own thread.


If I understand the Holcomb effect and the Figuera effect and the efforts of UFO they all seem to rely on the idea of moving a virtual magnetic field past some coils.  I spent a little time working on a simple version of the Figuera effect and did see some transference of energy but not anywhere close to being efficient.  But my test setup was pretty crude.  With all the attention of the Holcomb device and the work being done by UFO I decided to spend some more time thinking about how this could be done more easily.  The following idea may be totally worthless but I won't know that until I try it out.  And I do plan to try it out.  But I thought I would put the idea out here for review and comments while I get things together to build my idea.


It seems to me that we need a good way to generate a moving magnetic field.  Well all AC induction motors have a moving magnetic field.  That is what causes them to rotate.  I also know that 3 phase power is much more efficient than single phase power.  But how to get a variable speed 3 phase signal that can also have the power level adjusted for testing purposes?  Well it turns out we have a easily gotten 3 phase power generator.  The standard automotive alternator is 3 phase power that gets rectified into DC.  It we remove the rectifier assembly we then can get a 3 phase power signal out.  If we remove the voltage regulator that is now most of the time internal to the alternator we can then apply an adjustable DC supply to the brushes to adjust the output voltage of our now 3 phase generator.


If we then turn the alternator with a small DC motor like one of the scooter motors many of us have used in the past we now have a 3 phase source of power that can be adjusted both in frequency and power out.


I think it was UFO that made a post a few days ago that maybe we should be energizing the outer stator and take power off the inner stator (formerly rotor).  If we take a second auto alternator and remove the rectifier assembly and regulator from it we could then feed our 3 phase power from our new power source directly to the 3 phase windings of the second alternator.  And then maybe we could take power from the brushes of the second alternator.  Of course we would need to lock the rotor of the second alternator as I believe it would probably try to turn with the 3 phase rotating field from the stator.  We may need to slowly adjust the position of the rotor for the best pick up of the energy from the stator.  Or maybe not.  Only testing will show if any energy at all can be generated this way.  But I plan to find out.


If the theories about using a virtual moving magnetic field are correct then a changing load on the second alternator should not cause an increase in the power going to the motor driving the first alternator.  Nor should a change in power being drawn from the second alternator require any increase in power going to the brushes of the first alternator.  Only testing will show if that is correct.


I welcome any CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions or ideas.


Thanks for reading.
Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: bistander on August 19, 2022, 11:05:55 PM
Hi citfta,
I think your plan works up until the last step. Using the Lundel (claw) 'rotor' with its single coil (concentric to shaft) will loose the effective moving magnetic field (RMF). It would simply be a pulsing alternating field.

Wouldn't hurt to try. I could be mistaken. And then again, when it doesn't work, forget about using the concentric coil. Turn down the claws to increase the air gap and insert coil(s), air core, in the gap glued to the claw. That is where that claimed atmospheric charge was collected, per recent article.
bi

edit:
Further thinking. With the air gap coil(s), keep original field coil (concentric to shaft) and energize it to apply a bias field on the air gap coil(s).
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 20, 2022, 12:45:56 PM
Hello Bi,


I think what you have written might be correct about the pulsing alternating field IF we allow the rotor to turn with the virtual rotating field.  But IF we lock the rotor so that the virtual magnetic field moves past the claws of the rotor then I think my idea might work.  Only testing will show what happens.  I hope to be able to work on this next week.  My weekend is already full.


Thanks for the input and for giving me something to think about.


Take care,
Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 20, 2022, 03:02:13 PM
Hello Citfta,

First, let me say that I am very happy to see that my experiments somehow triggered people like you, of great expertise on this fields, to actually decide to start building a prototype based on the same principles!!

Second, I will offer, if you decide, for you to open a New Topic on my Main Thread, as I will be moderating it for you...in case you do not want some negative comments or noise there.

I think your idea is great, however, you really need to make all possible analysis before starting to put it together.

IMO, Bistander is right about the positioning of the second set inner rotor coil, which will generate the output...
However, I also agree, like you have said, it should be tested as is, then see what is the outcome.

Once you start rotating the three phase field, the fixed rotor claws will see alternated polarity changes, which will transfer (orderly) to the perpendicular coil, and this fact will generate the field change required.

Alternator rotor is made of two main steel parts (which are basically 'caps' to the main coil), upper and lower, with the claws alternating like upper-lower tooth facing the phase shifting coils.
Once you start rotating the field, each claw will alternate polarity in an orderly fashion, which -in overall view of the whole assembly- will generate upper and lower rotor caps to alternate main poles which will affect the inner single coil...and so, I believe you will see some induction output.

Eventually, I believe you will need to change the main inner rotor coil wire to a thicker gauge and more length (more turns)...to obtain more output...

Happy building and my best wishes!!

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: bistander on August 20, 2022, 03:52:30 PM
Think about that 'inner' coil, the field coil which is concentric to the shaft or axis of rotation. Actually, in its normal operation, it does not need to rotate. It would work just the same in the alternator if held stationary while the steel claw rotated. In standard alternator operation, it, the field coil, produces the RMF. But that process being reversible, would simply induce DC in the coil.

Whether that matters in this quest is dubious in my opinion. I do find this an interesting experiment.

Please don't give Ufo authority to delete me.
bi
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 20, 2022, 04:33:15 PM

Please don't give Ufo authority to delete me.
bi


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA ;D
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 20, 2022, 04:45:42 PM
Think about that 'inner' coil, the field coil which is concentric to the shaft or axis of rotation. Actually, in its normal operation, it does not need to rotate. It would work just the same in the alternator if held stationary while the steel claw rotated. In standard alternator operation, it, the field coil, produces the RMF. But that process being reversible, would simply induce DC in the coil.
bi

Hello Bistander,

Yes, I agree with you on the above...and that was my point, originally, when I have said that the Magnetic Field actually does not move at all in this type of Automotive Alternators...
What actually "simulates" a rotation of the field are the alternated NSNSNS claws spinning...plus, the way you have put it is perfectly well explained...yes, actually the coil did not need to rotate, just the claws.
However, look at it from "the other angle"...projecting a rotating alternated field to the now stationary claws...imagine it in your mind.
If it is done orderly alternated, it will "flash" upper and lower coil caps with NSNSNS...or viewing the way you like, it will alternate the B-Field Vector up and down related (parallel) to shaft direction.
Do you agree?

And do not worry...it would be exclusively up to Citfta if He wants me to delete you or not...hahaha

But, yes, definitively I also find it as a very interesting experiment.

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: bistander on August 20, 2022, 05:05:17 PM
If the stator is excited to produce the RMF, and the claws are stationary, the concentric coil sees AC. If the claws rotate at synchronous frequency, the concentric coil sees DC.
bi
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 20, 2022, 05:40:17 PM
If the stator is excited to produce the RMF, and the claws are stationary, the concentric coil sees AC. If the claws rotate at synchronous frequency, the concentric coil sees DC.
bi
Yes...agree.
Claws would be stationary, as rotor, as concentric coil...according to Citfta proposal.
So, through Rotor slip rings it will collect AC...and IMO, it will be pretty fast changes (short angles) from claw to claw angle.
Which is actually good, as the Generator side Rotor-Motor, would not need to go that fast (or 3600 RPM's)
Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: bistander on August 20, 2022, 05:48:24 PM
But there is no moving magnetic field cutting the coil, which is the intent, or so I thought.
bi
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 20, 2022, 07:59:36 PM
Hi Bi,


The first alternator will be producing a 3 phase AC signal that will then be fed to the stator of the second alternator.  A 3 phase AC signal is constantly rotating so it would be causing the magnetic field to be cutting the coil of the locked rotor.  Or at least I hope it will.


Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: bistander on August 20, 2022, 09:41:23 PM
The claw rotor of the second machine (stationary or not) will redirect the field (RMF) from the stator such that it is pulsating or constant, but not moving with respect to that coil.

That's why I suggested adding coils in the air gap (of 2nd machine) having radial axis(s) instead of axial axis.

Hey, I'm all for testing it.  I haven't actually measured it, just relating my interpretation of the standard theory. Perhaps someone can post a FEMM or flux map of the Lundell alternator so you can see what I'm talking about.
bi

Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 21, 2022, 01:13:51 AM
Hi Ufo,


I forgot to thank you for your offer to host my thread in your section of the forum.  I appreciate that.  We'll see how it goes like this.  If there is too much negative or off topic comments then I may take you up on that offer.  Bi,  I was not referring to you, but there are some people on this forum that only seem to want to disrupt others threads.  I appreciate your comments and ideas. 


I did find a couple of alternators today in my collection of junk. I got the regulators and rectifiers removed and the bearings turn nice and free.  So now I need to make some holders for the brushes as they were originally mounted on the regulators.  I also found one of my old scooter motors for a driving force so I am on the way to getting something built.


Later,
Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: kolbacict on August 21, 2022, 07:19:22 AM
Eventually, I believe you will need to change the main inner rotor coil wire to a thicker gauge and more length (more turns)...to obtain more output...
If you tell me how to take it apart. :)
I tried to knock down pieces of iron with claws, and a hammer and a press, and heated them with a burner. Nothing happened. they holded tight.  :(

Quote
So now I need to make some holders for the brushes as they were originally mounted on the regulators.
Maybe just cut off some conductors and solder the others?
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: bistander on August 21, 2022, 07:41:48 AM
I'd certainly see if it works at all before rewinding to larger wire. All that would do is reduce coil resistance, and heat, to allow higher current output. But, if it's going to work at all, the existing coil wire size won't be a show stopper.
And if you know coil design basics, simply increasing wire size will not increase power output unless you can increase total mass of copper on the coil. There may not be (probably isn't) space available to do that on the existing rotor.
bi

ps. Regarding the brushes. That part won't spin so lose the slip rings and solder to the coil leads.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 21, 2022, 01:22:21 PM
Bi,


You are correct about the brushes not being needed on the output alternator if I lock the rotor as I intend to do on the final testing.  But on the other alternator I will be turning the rotor so I will need the brush holders.  I also intend to vary the input power going to the brushes on the generating alternator.  And in the interest of learning more I intend to try the output alternator both with the rotor free to spin and with it locked.  I think I know what I will see but I want to verify that with actual testing.


Making the brush holders shouldn't take too long as they can be made of anything that is non-conducting.  And I have a milling machine.  So sometime tomorrow I should be ready for testing.  Both alternators have actual brush holders that make connections to and support the brushes.  What I have to make are supporting holders for them because they were mounted to the regulators.


Thanks for all for their comments and suggestions.
Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: matu on August 22, 2022, 01:27:39 PM
Hello, in case it could be of help, I leave you some similar tests that a Spanish friend carried out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhEGuX8GyBM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DahfeaGj3xo

Cheers
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 22, 2022, 03:45:45 PM
matu,


Thanks for sharing those videos.  What I saw in the second video did not make a lot of sense to me.  So I will continue with my research and testing.  I think his frequency of AC coming from the first alternator was too high for the second rotor to lock to when he shorted the rotor with it stopped.  If he had gotten the second rotor turning faster and then shorted the slip rings I believe the second rotor would have locked to the rotating magnetic field. His second alternator behaved like an industrial 3 phase motor with one of the phases missing.  In that condition they have low torque and have to be started by hand and can be started in either direction.  In other words I think his testing might have a problem.  I will know more when I get my system together.


Thanks again for sharing,
Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 22, 2022, 07:51:57 PM
Hello Citfta,

On this type of test, I will consider to use one of this old type alternators...like for 1980's Truck vehicles...or earlier, for the purpose of their simplicity at the regulator and bridges...
Can you leave on, the Diode Bridge on the 3 phase Generator side , and feed the second (rotary 3 phase field) from the 3 wires going to the bridge?
The reason I am writing this, is to be able to "jump" your exciter coil -directly- with the same electrical output from the bridge Positive-Negative.
I believe this way you will just need to control rotation speed through the electric motor...and may even get a 12V CAR Battery to charge it as you test it...

IMHO, I believe this is the correct way for all these Systems...same way it works for any Generator out there...which does not require any external Input...just rotation of the field.
In a Car Alternator we have the same thing, except it also charges the Battery, but, if you disconnect battery (of course, after vehicle started)...vehicle will keep running, plus all accessories working...just because Alternator is 'back-feeding' itself.

After all they are designed to do just that...as I believe an External Input, say from a Battery is only for startup purposes...otherwise the Amperage to the exciter field would be of very low amps...so you will not get a strong field.

That is exactly what I believe happened to the previous spanish guy video shown by Matu on the first video...He only gets like Milliamps...when these generators work on very High Amps. He is feeding the Alternator Generator exciter -at all time- with a small, maybe 7Ah battery, used for House Alarms...

Hope you understand my point.

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 22, 2022, 08:20:15 PM
Hi Ufo,
I do understand what you are saying, but I want to be able to adjust the input power to the slip rings.  That way I can see what effect changing the input power has on the output as well as being able to adjust for changing speed of the input rotor.  If the theories about a virtual rotating magnetic field are correct as I go up in speed on the input rotor my output should increase in voltage.  By being able to adjust my input voltage I can then control all variables.
From what I saw on the two videos I believe he did not have all 3 phases going to the output alternator.  It just didn't act right.  I could be wrong but I am pretty sure he was only getting a single phase to the output alternator. 
Got to get back to work.
Take care,
Carroll


PS: Hope to have something to show by tomorrow.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 22, 2022, 08:40:28 PM
Hi Ufo,
I do understand what you are saying, but I want to be able to adjust the input power to the slip rings.  That way I can see what effect changing the input power has on the output as well as being able to adjust for changing speed of the input rotor.  If the theories about a virtual rotating magnetic field are correct as I go up in speed on the input rotor my output should increase in voltage.  By being able to adjust my input voltage I can then control all variables.
From what I saw on the two videos I believe he did not have all 3 phases going to the output alternator.  It just didn't act right.  I could be wrong but I am pretty sure he was only getting a single phase to the output alternator. 
Got to get back to work.
Take care,
Carroll


Hi Carroll,

I can tell you what will happen whenever you accelerate the field speed: Voltage Output will go up...but Amperage at Input will go down.

And that is exactly what I was saying before...that if you feed the brushes at generator, from a fixed, stable source, like a Battery...or a PSU...it will not respond directly to any of your Output demand, basically seen whenever you load it.

Whenever you loop the Alternator out to exciter (and you could still regulate it, by inserting a circuit in between with a potentiometer) it will be a proportionate response to any speed variation of the field you make.

Swear I will not bother you anymore (for today, lol)...I was just suggesting ways to be successful here.

Take care

Ufopolitics


Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 23, 2022, 09:01:44 PM
OKay,


Got the alternators done and working.  Got a video uploaded that shows what the signal looks like.  I forgot that when I zoom the camera it blanks out the audio.  The only thing you probably missed is that the bulb in the video is a 120 volt night light.  Everything seemed to work just like I expected.  My only surprise was that if I short out the output the rotor on the output alternator stops.  I thought that by shorting the output the current would rise on the rotor and cause an increase in the magnetic field of the rotor and thus would have more torque.  But that doesn't seem to be the case.  If the rotor it freely turning and I short out  the output then the rotor stops.  I did not show that in the video.  But the video does show how the frequency and voltage increase when I stop the rotor.


Here is the link:
https://ugetube.com/watch/OTyaKIHaevI6co9


I hope you enjoy it.  OH and please ignore the messy bench.  But it takes a mess to make a project.


Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 23, 2022, 09:54:28 PM
Hello Citfta,

Thanks for sharing your video!!
Yes I did enjoy it!!
I will  tell you things that I noticed on your setup...that may need some attention...or maybe I am wrong...please correct me if so.

1- First, the Alternator Generator you are using must have a specific RPM to operate properly (You could search it according to year + model)...normally Alternators run on a low RPM, basically to keep charging the system even when Engine is running at idle (like 800 RPM's)...then Alternator would run lower than that.

IMHO, your Motor is driving it too fast...check at a lower speed.

2- Second, and according to your description, the PSU on left of video screen is for the motor...and the PSU on the right is to supply V & A to the brushes on the 3 Phase Alternator Generator...am I correct so far?
If so, then your Generator is receiving around 5 Volts (not even reaching the 5V line...so would say like 4.75V...and 3 Amps.
And that is not the right Voltage for an Alternator...Resulting that the Field you are generating is very weak, no matter if you get 10 Amps....and that is based on the Alternator wire gauge being pretty thick (I would say they have like 16 gauge easy) then resistance is very low...so, your PSU would react according to those parameters then compensate its output.

IMHO, it is too low Voltage for the Input.

As a result, when you short the output it will stop the free rotor at the rotating field/output set.

3- Finally, in your Output set, if the rotor rotates...then it will not Output at Max range.
The Rotor is supposed to be static, so that the Field changes are reflected on a static core...if it moves, then it will travel with the rotating field...no radical changes would be seen by Induced Coil...so, it is like a rotating transformer, where primary and secondary are spinning.

Anyways, would love to see the Three Sine waves generated by the three wires going to the second alternator on a 4 channel scope...if possible.

Excelent video, thanks again for sharing!!

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: bistander on August 23, 2022, 10:18:28 PM
I think the output rotor is always turning slower than the primary alternator, therefore the scope frequency is the difference between the two, correct? Assuming the two have same pole count.
Nice job, citfta.
However I still contend, the output coil sees an alternating flux, like a transformer, not a moving or traveling flux, like a generator armature coil. I don't know a simple way to verify that with the hardware.
bi
edit:
The second alternator is actually running as a combined motor generator. It is inducing rotor current like an induction motor while you pick off armature generated voltage to power the lamp. Cool. Not sure that I can explain why it stalls when shorted, except it drops below breakdown torque value.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 23, 2022, 10:39:00 PM
Hi Ufo,


Your observation are correct except for one thing.  Although a car engine does operate at a wide range of speed the pulley on the alternator is much smaller than the pulley on the car engine therefore the alternator actually turns much faster than the speed of the car engine.  The scooter motor I used in the video does not have enough torque to turn the alternator at high speed if I turn up the current going to the slip rings of the alternator.  I did try turning it up more but as the current went up it overloaded the scooter motor and caused the current to go up too high on it.  You have to remember that a car engine has much more power to drive the alternator than my little scooter motor.


I did actually look at each one of the phases individually with the scope before I made the video and I could remake the video with one of the phases and the output showing at the same time.  I do have an old 4 channel scope but it died on me a while back and I just haven't taken the time to repair it.  I guess I need to do that one of these days.  The scope I am using now only has 2 channels.


As you may have noticed I did stop the rotor several times.  I only let it free rotate to show that even then there is voltage and current being generated but when stopped the frequency of the generated power and the voltage of the generated power both went up.  So there is definitely a moving magnetic field being generated.


I see Bi made a comment while I was typing this.  I think the above paragraph addresses his comment.  If there was only transformer action I don't think stopping the rotor would cause the frequency to go up.  Also if I slow down the drive motor the frequency goes down.  And Bi what is causing the rotor to rotate if not a rotating field?


Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 23, 2022, 10:40:56 PM
Not sure that I can explain why it stalls when shorted...

Hello Bi,

I believe rotor stalls (stops) when shorted output, because it magnetizes with its own induced energy.
then it locks down to stator steel.
By the Field being weak, will not be able to move it when locked.

Just my opinion...

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 23, 2022, 10:48:16 PM
Hi Ufo,

Your observation are correct except for one thing.  Although a car engine does operate at a wide range of speed the pulley on the alternator is much smaller than the pulley on the car engine therefore the alternator actually turns much faster than the speed of the car engine.  The scooter motor I used in the video does not have enough torque to turn the alternator at high speed if I turn up the current going to the slip rings of the alternator.  I did try turning it up more but as the current went up it overloaded the scooter motor and caused the current to go up too high on it.  You have to remember that a car engine has much more power to drive the alternator than my little scooter motor.


Carroll


Yes Citfta, you are correct...if you increase Field strength, the rotor would get very stiff (even more when a load is connected)...and your motor would not be able to drive it.
That is why I like to rotate the Field without depending on Lenz Physical Law... ;)


Good job!!


Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Jimboot on August 23, 2022, 11:11:58 PM
Thanks for doing that and sharing Carroll. Simpler fabrication ideas are needed. This was very interesting.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: SolarLab on August 23, 2022, 11:25:56 PM
 Thanks Carrol - very interesting and educational demo video!

Curious as to what the voltage and current of the three phase signals might be.
Reason I ask is related to building a solidstate uProcessor based 3-phase driver.

SL



Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 24, 2022, 01:32:05 AM
I don't know why but I can't seem to upload a picture.  I have tried 4 times to upload a picture of a scope shot showing one of the 3 phase signals and the output signal so you could compare them.  I don't know what the current is of the 3 phase signals but the voltage is about 10 volts peak to peak.


I did discover that the output signal is always locked in sync to the 3 phase signal.  So apparently Bi is correct that some transformer action is taking place.  And the interesting thing is that when i lock the rotor and the frequency of the output signal goes up the frequency of the 3 phase signal also goes up.  So I guess that means that a locked rotor reduces the load on the driving motor.  I am not sure what that means but I find it interesting.


The picture I wanted to share shows that the 3 phase input signal is much smaller in voltage than the output voltage.  I think that is interesting but it may only mean that the current of the 3 phase signal is higher than the output signal.  I guess I need to find a way to measure that.  Been a long day.  Maybe tomorrow.


Later,
Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 24, 2022, 02:24:47 AM
I don't know why but I can't seem to upload a picture.  I have tried 4 times to upload a picture of a scope shot showing one of the 3 phase signals and the output signal so you could compare them.
Later,
Carroll

Hi Cifta,

The images must be the size and type specified right below the upload section:

I copied and pasted below in quotes:

Quote
Allowed file types: txt, tif, xls, doc, odt, pdf, jpg, jpeg, gif, mp3, mpg, flv, mp4, mpeg, png, rm, ra, rmv, avi, zip, wmv, wma, rar, qt, mov, swf, asf, wm2d, 3gp, 3g2
Restrictions: 12 per post, maximum total size 15000KB, maximum individual size 150000KB


I think the size is written wrong, or inverted, individual size= 15000kb/ Total per post 150,000kb

Plus, the width should be 1000 Px max


Take care

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: SolarLab on August 24, 2022, 03:57:22 AM
I don't know why but I can't seem to upload a picture.  I have tried 4 times to upload a picture of a scope shot showing one of the 3 phase signals and the output signal so you could compare them.  I don't know what the current is of the 3 phase signals but the voltage is about 10 volts peak to peak.


I did discover that the output signal is always locked in sync to the 3 phase signal.  So apparently Bi is correct that some transformer action is taking place.  And the interesting thing is that when i lock the rotor and the frequency of the output signal goes up the frequency of the 3 phase signal also goes up.  So I guess that means that a locked rotor reduces the load on the driving motor.  I am not sure what that means but I find it interesting.


The picture I wanted to share shows that the 3 phase input signal is much smaller in voltage than the output voltage.  I think that is interesting but it may only mean that the current of the 3 phase signal is higher than the output signal.  I guess I need to find a way to measure that.  Been a long day.  Maybe tomorrow.


Later,
Carroll

 Carrol,

Thanks again; 10 Vpp is easy to do from 3 processor DACs through Power OpAmps or Audio Amps.

An interesting device you've developed!

SL

One suggestion for "picture manipulations:"

InfanView (32 or 64) freeware (it's clean) Used it for years:

Install:
https://www.irfanview.com/main_download_engl.htm (https://www.irfanview.com/main_download_engl.htm) or
https://www.irfanview.com/64bit.htm (https://www.irfanview.com/64bit.htm)
+ Plugins - (both can be downloaded as self extracting or zip format)

Use: (lots of features and file types, including animated .gif)
Pictures, etc. can be easily sized by using (ribbon) Image | Resize/Resample [Ctl-R]
- Set new size as percentage of original;
- reduce file size; see help (No one click solution, but .... new JPG option: Set file size, etc.
- save in nearly any format.
 
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 24, 2022, 03:11:19 PM
I appreciate all the suggestions for uploading pictures but I have been uploading pictures to this forum for years.  My problem is my internet service.  I have Verizon wireless internet.  It works through the cell phone system.  In the evening after everyone gets home the system slows down to a crawl.  I live out in the country and the Verizon system is just overloaded.  I plan to switch to T-Mobile very soon.  Here in the southeast U.S. T-Mobile has internet speeds almost twice the speed of Verizon.  And their system is rapidly expanding so they are staying ahead of being overloaded.


Well anyway here is the picture I tried to upload last night.


The yellow trace (channel 1) is the signal from one of the 3 phases to another.  The blue trace (channel 2 ) is the output signal from the slip ring of the second alternator.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: bistander on August 24, 2022, 03:42:12 PM
Cool. Obviously same frequency. Rotor is locked, right?
bi
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 24, 2022, 04:08:33 PM
Yes,  when that scope shot was taken the rotor was locked.  You have mentioned a couple of times that you thought only transformer action was taking place and not a rotating magnetic field.  I think what is actually going on is both.  In a usual configuration a 3 phase industrial motor works by induction or transformer action.  The stator coils induce a current into the rotor that locks the rotor to the stator field but since the stator field is rotating the rotor follows the rotating field.  If  you lose one of the connections then the rotor only sees a single phase.  And therefore has no rotating field to follow.  You can get it spinning by hand and the changing field of the single phase will cause it to keep rotating but the torque is greatly reduced.  Another proof of the rotating field is that by interchanging any two wires of the 3 phase system we cause the rotor to turn in the opposite direction because we have changed the order of the rotating magnetic field.


I think the scope shot shows that the output frequency is locked to the input frequency but is that because of only transformer action or is it also because the field is rotating and the stator is not?  Like you mentioned earlier I am not sure how we could prove it one way or the other.  If you or anyone else has any suggestions for answering that question I am willing to do more testing.


Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: bistander on August 24, 2022, 04:36:04 PM
You have the rotating magnetic field (RMF) in the stator but that does not translate to the coil inside the claw (Lundell) rotor as an RMF due to the orientation of the coil (axial instead of radial). That coil sees it just as an alternating flux.

Try the same test allowing rotation and you should see a lower frequency induced in the rotor coil, and lower peaks.

I think the 'slave' machine rotation is cause by induction of eddy currents in the steel rotor claws, not the coil. Like an induction motor, which would rotate with a solid steel core. Does it rotate with the slip rings open circuit?
bi
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 25, 2022, 06:47:46 PM
Okay,  here is another short video of the signals with the rotor not locked.  The yellow signal is the signal of one of the 3 phases.  The blue signal is again the signal coming from the slip rings connected to the rotor of the output alternator.  I said in the video the signals were the same frequency, but that is not correct.  They are close but if they were actually the same they would stay in step.  Looking at the video closer you can see that as the rotor is freely turning the frequency goes down on the rotor as bistander correctly suggested.


Also in the first part of the video the slip rings of the rotor are not connected to any load except the input to the scope.  If you watch closely in the video when I connect the load the rotor signal seems to get closer to the frequency of the 3 phase signal.  And of course when I lock the rotor the signals do get synced to one another.  Also I have connected a meter to the slip ring output and measured the AC signal locked and unlocked.  As bi also suggested the voltage goes up when locked as we could see in the other video by the bulb getting slightly brighter when the rotor was locked.  The unlocked voltage is 28.8 VAC and the locked voltage is 30.8 VAC.  So the output voltage goes up and the input power goes down when we lock the rotor.  Does the output voltage go up because the frequency of the system goes up or does the frequency go up because somehow the rotor being locked causes less load on the driving motor?  It appears then that if we could get our input frequency higher we might see some interesting results.  I don't think there is much more I can do with this set up, but if anyone has any ideas they want me to try just let me know.


https://rumble.com/v1hb4yn-free-running-rotor.html


Just some more to think about.


Later,
Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: bistander on August 25, 2022, 08:04:34 PM
Well done citfta,
Since it will rotate on its own with the rotor coil open circuit, it is eddy currents in the steel claws producing torque, nothing from the coil. That would imply that, if the rotor was to spin at synchronous speed, no torque would be produced. And no voltage induced in the rotor coil. We can see the beginning of that trend with frequency and voltage decreasing with increasing rotor speed.

I think this is an excellent test/example to confirm or support the contention that the magnetic field actually moves rather than disappear at one point in space and reappear in a nearby point giving the allusion of movement. If that were the case, there would be changing flux linking the shaft concentric coil and induction. I'd really like to see both alternators driven at same speed (assumption is equal pole count).
Thanks for your efforts.
BTW, still no hint of iron electron spin Holcomb energy. I think you'd need radial orientation pick-up coils, to be cut by the RMF.
bi
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 26, 2022, 03:18:54 PM
Good morning Citfta, good morning Bistander, good morning all,

I have to say that your idea to build this setup was an excellent move!!
As you may think this is it...I will tell you, it is just the beginning...

I really do not want to crowd your Thread with all my thoughts, so I will be opening a specific Topic under my Moderated Thread.

I have no idea if some of you have seen all these Alternator Conversion into a Brushless (BLDC) Motor...but ever since you uploaded your first video, I was thinking of it as a possibility...since you encounter problems when feeding your exciting field with just the proper Voltage and Amperage...since it will get stiff, and your scooter motor would not be able to spin it...

Here is the First Video...the Guy uses a typical small 500-1000 Watts ESC (Electronic Speed Controller) normally used for R/C Toys and Hobbyists (btw, I ordered one [1000W, arriving next week)

Note that almost NO WORK, no new winding, not full removal of diode bridge is even required to make original alternator to run.

ALTERNATOR CONVERSION TO BLDC MOTOR_VIDEO 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtFDNCG0_Uo)

But then, same Guy goes a bit more sophisticated, by building his own ESC...out of 3 FETS, 4 Diodes and 4 Resistors...plus a Potentiometer...and honestly, what I like better about this last one...is that it uses the common 3 wire joint to one of the potentiometer leg...while the factory build ESC does not...so, I assume it will tend to overheat more.

ALTERNATOR CONVERSION TO BLDC, NO ESC, 3 FETS_VIDEO_2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geT94tV-xBM&t=280s)

Point here, is very simple, you will just need ONE Alternator...not two, plus get rid of the Scooter Motor...

Notice that in both videos, He powers the rotor coil (magnetize it) with a small AA 1.5V Battery...if not, it will simply not turn at all.
Which demonstrates that this is NOT the same effect as seen on the typical Induction Motor with 3 Phase AC Sinewave.
And not spinning due to any Eddy currents either...

Process is simple, even a weak magnetization on Rotor, will make it to "stick" to the Rotating Field...and vualá...it runs, and runs very strong!!
I am going to be making this test as soon as next week...I will also order all components to make the 3 FETS Controller.
I will also power rotor coil with a Supercap, and a small meter to detect if there is any charge value while spinning.

But finally, I will fit a Generator Exciter Rotor inside Alternator Stator Field and make it fixed...wound it with 18 or 20 gauge...like 700 to 1000 ft. Just like Pierre Cotnoir setup...but using this simple small ESC...

I now believe this is the "secret" that Pierre was talking about...or the "Pistons missing on the Engine" when just rotating the field...

Realize the BLDC Signal (And I will measure it and see it on my new 4 channel scope) is a square, flat top and bottom wave...and whenever aligned all three of them will create almost a flat line above and below...which means field(s) would be alive at almost all times...so, no soft up-down AC curves here...

It will be a piece of cake to make this field to go and keep at 3600 RPM's...As he drives it above 7500 and more RPM's effortlessly...
However, as Bistander mentioned like two times, you will need a new type of center rotor...where coil(s) and center core, would be facing Stator Coils, radially.

Anyways, I wanted to share my findings here, since you started to play with Alternators first, as it was your original and ingenious idea, what got me into this exciting future tests.


I feel very positive about it...

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Feb2006 on August 27, 2022, 02:45:16 AM
A video about half bridges and full bridges ESCs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urQEdGjK7Xg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urQEdGjK7Xg)
09:57 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urQEdGjK7Xg&t=597s) Half vs Full Controller
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 27, 2022, 02:56:08 AM
Hello everyone.  A big thanks to all for all the positive comments and so far not one single negative comment.  Wow that is a first for me.


Well I do have a few more things to share with you.  I have done some more testing using my original test setup with 2 alternators and the scooter motor.  So I'll share the results of that first and then have some more to share about the videos that UFO gave us links to.


I decided I wanted a little better data so I put some meters on my system.  I had a DVM set for AC volts on the slip ring circuit of the output alternator and a DVM set for AC volts on one of the 3 phases.  I still used the scooter motor being driven with about 18 volts DC and still had about 3 amps DC going to the slip rings of the first alternator.  When I locked the rotor I used a pair of long nosed vise grip pliers.  This allowed me to make some very fine adjustments of the position of the rotor in relation to the stator coils.  As I suspected there is a sweet spot that will give you the most output for the least input.  When adjusted for that spot and with the 120 night light as my load I got 31.2 volts coming out on the slip ring while the AC voltage on one of the 3 phases rose to 4.39 volts AC.


If I kept everything else the same and just disconnected the load so I had an open slip ring circuit my phase voltage only rose to 4.40 volts AC while my slip ring voltage rose to 32.5 volts AC.  If I shorted the output my phase voltage still stayed the same as 4.40 VAC.


If I let the rotor turn freely my phase voltage dropped to 4.04 VAC while my system when loaded with the bulb dropped to 28.2 VAC.  If I shorted out the slip ring my phase voltage dropped to 3.84 VAC and if I left the slip ring circuit open  my phase voltage rose to 4.06 VAC and my output voltage was 29.2 VAC.  So the system definitely works better with the rotor locked and adjusted for best induction from the  rotating magnetic field.


I did one more thing before dismantling that system.  I turned the slip ring current on the driving alternator up to several more amps to see what would happen.  I only ran it like that for a short time because of the heavy load on the scooter motor.  When I did that with the second alternator free to turn it took off like a regular motor and reached a pretty high speed very quickly.  I took a quick glance at the meters and the scope and there was barely any voltage being generated in the slip ring circuit.  I think this proves the induction into the slip ring circuit is coming from the moving magnetic field because when the rotor got up to close to the same speed as the moving magnetic field almost all induction stopped.  A quick glance showed less than a volt being generated as compared to 30 volts or so when locked even though the 3 phase field was much stronger.


Okay,  time for part two.  After watching the videos UFO posted links to I decided to set up the same demo as in the first video.  If you want you can watch it first and then read my comments.


https://rumble.com/v1hh4ux-driving-an-alternator-with-rc-speed-controller.html


If you watched the video you saw that the signal from the little RC ESC is actually a bunch of PWM pulses.  With the rotor sitting still no matter what speed I set the ESC to I could not get any generation in the slip ring circuit above a few millivolts.  So next I did connect a supply to the slip ring of the single alternator and that is what you see in the video.  As I said in the video I am really curious what kind of signal he is generating with his 3 mosfet circuit in the second video.  I am not sure just what is generating a signal to cause the mosfets to switch.  I haven't taken time yet to actually watch the video carefully and draw out that circuit.  I could see he is using the center connection from the Y configuration the alternator is wired for.  Both of my alternators are wired like that also.


The Y configuration is commonly used in industry.  From the center connection to any other leg you get about 120 volts.  And from any one leg to another you get about 208 volts.  So with a breaker panel being fed with 3 phase Y power it is easy to get just what you need by just making the right connections in the panel.  But I am not sure how his mosfet circuit works using the center connection. I am thinking that somehow as each phase powers off it triggers the next phase to power on.  However it works it seems to work well so I guess I need to build it and see for myself how it works.


If it in fact actually is turning each phase on and off fully without the PWM of the ESC then I think it is possible it will produce a nice high speed rotating magnetic field that could induce a good signal into a locked rotor.  I am not convinced yet that there is a need to make any changes to the rotor coil.  I think my own testing has proven the alternating claws of the rotor are perfectly capable of inducing a changing magnetic field across the coil.  But further testing is of course needed. 


I don't know how soon I can get around to building the MOSFET controller.  I am pretty sure I have all the parts but I am going to be pretty busy with other things for the next couple of weeks.  Hopefully what I have shown will encourage some of you to see what you can do with something like an alternator.  I will be looking in from time to time.  Looking forward to seeing what UFO can do with his project.


Take care guys and gals too if there are any,
Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Feb2006 on August 27, 2022, 03:55:26 AM
An ESC is sensing the back emf to get the timing right ,that's what probably makes it not working.
You need an ESC that does not sense the rotor position and tries to adjust.
An open source one that you can program yourself.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 27, 2022, 04:12:03 AM
I don't understand your comment.  Makes what not working?  The ESC I used drove the alternator just fine.




Edit: Did you watch the video?
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Feb2006 on August 27, 2022, 04:16:00 AM
"With the rotor sitting still no matter what speed I set the ESC to I could not get any generation in the slip ring circuit above a few millivolts. "
In motor mod is working not in generator mod.
In motor mod you get back emf and right rotor timing.
An ESC is made for driving motors.

Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 27, 2022, 04:42:31 AM
I think you need to watch all the videos from the beginning so you will understand what we are experimenting with.  We are doing basic research on the idea of making a virtual moving magnetic field and the effect it might have on generating power.  The ESC I used uses PWM to generate a sort of sine wave.  Because the PWM pulses are so short they don't have time to generate a field into the slip ring coil because the impedance of the slip ring coil is too high for that short of a pulse.  An ESC such as the one in the second video UFO linked to probably has a simple on and off pulse without the PWM.  If that is the case then it should be able to generate a moving magnetic field like we are looking for.


I hope this helps you understand what we are doing.
Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: bistander on August 27, 2022, 04:46:47 AM
....
I did one more thing before dismantling that system.  I turned the slip ring current on the driving alternator up to several more amps to see what would happen.  I only ran it like that for a short time because of the heavy load on the scooter motor.  When I did that with the second alternator free to turn it took off like a regular motor and reached a pretty high speed very quickly.  I took a quick glance at the meters and the scope and there was barely any voltage being generated in the slip ring circuit.  I think this proves the induction into the slip ring circuit is coming from the moving magnetic field because when the rotor got up to close to the same speed as the moving magnetic field almost all induction stopped.  A quick glance showed less than a volt being generated as compared to 30 volts or so when locked even though the 3 phase field was much stronger.
...

Thanks for running that test and reporting. Results are as I suspected. It would not reach synchronous speed because as an induction motor it needs slip (difference between stator frequency and rotor frequency) to induce torque producing currents in the rotor (steel in this case). This slip frequency with no mechanical shaft load is very small, a few Hz at most. Therefore that frequency (and rate of change in flux) is what the shaft concentric rotor coil sees, hence the low voltage.

Great test.
bi
ps.
I like experimenting with the hobby BLDC drivers and breadboard FETs you guys are looking at. But those power signals (3-phase) differ considerably from a balanced true 3-phase source. So the resultant stator flux is unlikely to be a clean constant magnitude traveling magnetic field. More likely a sequence of pulses.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Feb2006 on August 27, 2022, 05:19:39 AM
I think you need to watch all the videos from the beginning so you will understand what we are experimenting with.  We are doing basic research on the idea of making a virtual moving magnetic field and the effect it might have on generating power.  The ESC I used uses PWM to generate a sort of sine wave.  Because the PWM pulses are so short they don't have time to generate a field into the slip ring coil because the impedance of the slip ring coil is too high for that short of a pulse.  An ESC such as the one in the second video UFO linked to probably has a simple on and off pulse without the PWM.  If that is the case then it should be able to generate a moving magnetic field like we are looking for.


I hope this helps you understand what we are doing.
Carroll


https://howtomechatronics.com/how-it-works/how-brushless-motor-and-esc-work/ (https://howtomechatronics.com/how-it-works/how-brushless-motor-and-esc-work/)


"So, when the moving magnetic field of the rotor pass through the free coil, or the one that’s not active, it will induce a current flow in coil and as result a voltage drop will occur in that coil. The ESC captures these voltage drops as they occur and based on them it predicts or calculates when the next interval should take place."


No moving or wrong moving magnetic field results in wrong intervals.
The second video  half bridge ESC  can work a fuii bridge ESC that not predicts or calculates the next interval can also work.

picture is full bridge, half bridge has only one on and two off alternating.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Jimboot on August 27, 2022, 06:51:18 AM
Thanks for running the tests Carroll. I went a salvaged an alternator today. Here is another of Zafers vids where he shows part numbers and circuit. https://youtu.be/geT94tV-xBM (https://youtu.be/geT94tV-xBM)
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 27, 2022, 12:34:18 PM
Hello Bi,
In the last video I posted I show on the scope that the RC ESC does use PWM or very short pulses to create a  simulation of a sine wave and therefore does not make a good source for our virtual moving magnetic field.


Hi Jimboot,
Good to see you here also.  I do plan to  build that MOSFET controller so the video is a help.  He does a good job of showing the actual build with part numbers.   But I need to draw that out on paper as a real schematic is the way I look at electronics.  I spent so many years troubleshooting circuits that is just the way my old brain works.  I just haven't take the time yet to draw it out.  I do think his circuit will probably give us a good signal for a virtual moving magnet field but only testing will prove or disprove that.


Take care guys,
Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 27, 2022, 06:33:30 PM
Hello to All,

Well, I am very glad that I have triggered some interest from my previous post...

Please, let me first thank Feb2006 for clearing up something that I totally forgot to mention on my previous post:

The ESC we use here MUST BE a Sensorless or Hall-less type!!
Now, some ESC do not have an extra connection for the sensor, but uses one of the Phases at each interval of time, where that phase goes "inactive"...and these ESC Types are NOT good for the effect we need to achieve, which is a CONSTANT Rotating Field effect from the 3 Phases working at ALL TIME!!

@ Citfta, excellent testing my friend!!, basically your description and results about your first test, without the ESC...plus your conclusions that Rotor must be stopped in order to get max Output.

Now, on the second video with the ESC, I suggest you make a "rig" to be able to see the scope signal without all the scrambling you are getting...and again, it would be much better seen on a 4 Channel Scope....but I know you do not have one working...However, this will work as well just for one signal of the 3.

I took two images out of the link that Feb2006 posted: https://howtomechatronics.com/how-it-works/how-brushless-motor-and-esc-work/ (https://howtomechatronics.com/how-it-works/how-brushless-motor-and-esc-work/)
And upload them here...

So on Image #1 He uses 3 resistors from the three phases and attach them together to create a "virtual common point"...as I suppose the resistance is supposed to be the same or approximated to each Coil resistance on the Motor (or in our case, the Alternator Coils).
Then attach just one of the gator clips to that common point (since it is just all clips are the same ground point for the scope).

On Image #2 You guys can see the three clean sinewaves seen at the Four Channel Scope (btw, very similar to mine, but mine is a DS110, not a DS105)

Anyways, Yes, I particularly like much better (like I mentioned on my previous post) the 3 FET Circuit that Zafer built...just because it seems more suitable for an Alternator set up like we will have...plus it uses that common point to regulate and control the three sinewaves.

Now, IMHO, if it can turn the Energized Rotor, even with a very small voltage from a 1.5V AA Battery...it does Generates a Rotating Moving Field.

Plus, if You make a simple test, I know it will also spin a N/S Radial Magnet inserted at center of Alternator Stator, mounted on a spinning shaft.

Now, with the ESC it does NOT generate the "Induction Motor Effect" which will turn a non magnetized steel rotor (like in Ctfta first videos, generated by the Alternator Generator)...it must be a magnetized Rotor here.

Take a look at Pierre Cotnoir setup, He uses a Magnet to verify the Rotating Field on his Six Poles rotary Field Stator...not a plain piece of steel as rotor.

Regards to All

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 27, 2022, 07:09:10 PM
Hello again,

Here I have uploaded a third image from that same testing...which I wanted to discuss plus give my opinion.

I believe (am pretty sure off) that He is using the Sensing Type ESC for this test, just because it keeps having an "inactive" phase during intervals, and so switching on all 3 phases the inactive one..and this is done by the ESC Processor, in order to detect the right magnetic positioning of the rotor. So, that inactive (not sending power to it) circuit of coils, serves as a sensor, which feeds back the rotor magnetic positioning.

And that is why we need a Full, Sensorless Driver here.

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: kolbacict on August 27, 2022, 08:11:45 PM
.but I know you do not have one working...However, this will work as well just for one signal of the 3.

maybe you forgot about the good old Lissajous pieces.
The CRT tube has four plates. And they are not afraid of overexertion.
It's just hard to interpret the resulting image.
This is how the hungry get out of the situation, who have nowhere to wait for help. :D
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 27, 2022, 10:01:26 PM
Hello  to All,

I put together the basic schematics for Zafer Yildiz circuit based on 3 FET's...simple.

I may do sometime next week the symbols electronic schematics, as this is just as we saw it on video.

I found the best FETs are the AUIRF3205 which are Automotive Rated Spec's...a bit more expensive (like $4.36 USD ea) , but worth it, because they are heavier duty than typical board mount types...

I also uploaded the PDF Data Sheet for that FET...

They are 55V and 98A Rated N-Channels MOSFET.

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 27, 2022, 10:33:10 PM

Hello,

Something I have noticed on Zafer Video...

Note when He accelerates the Alternator-Motor, with Potentiometer, the PSU shows no Amperage increase?
I find this property of this ESC, very useful for our purposes...
Here I uploaded two images from video...first one when he starts and a second one, once He accelerates Motor, note the Voltage increase,  while no amps increase.


Edit 1: Never mind, no big deal, I noticed He has CC on...or Current Control (CC) Limit.

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 27, 2022, 11:35:13 PM
Hi UFO,


Thanks for the nice schematic.  Also the IRF 3205 mosfets he is using are rated for 110 amps at 55 volts.  I have used them many times and they are pretty durable.


Thanks again for your input.
Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Jimboot on August 27, 2022, 11:57:50 PM
Excellent thanks UFO. I’ll be using the irf1405 which I’ve used a lot in pulse motors and easily available to Aussie builders at jaycar.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: bistander on August 28, 2022, 12:05:44 AM
Looks like rotor field coil is powered by a 3.7V Li 18650 cell, not a 1.5V AA cell.
bi
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 28, 2022, 01:00:33 AM
Hi UFO,

Thanks for the nice schematic.  I did find one mistake in it though.  You don't have any connections for power.  I modified it to show where the 12 volt power should connect to the circuit.  Also the IRF 3205 mosfets he is using are rated for 110 amps at 55 volts.  I have used them many times and they are pretty durable.

Thanks again for your input.
Carroll

Thks for the correction Citfta, but Bistander told me this was a "self energizing ESC"...Hahahahahahaha
Yeah, the FETs are available at DigiKey for like $1.59 when you buy 10...
Diodes are 1kV rated 1A...

I had some confusion about his gator clips (red-black) connections, as not seen completely on video, thks.

@Bistander, thanks for the correction about the small battery, it is about same size as an AA 1.5V...however it seemed too small of voltage for the coil.
I will be using supercaps plus a meter to see either gain or loss.

Cheers

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 28, 2022, 01:44:31 AM
Excellent thanks UFO. I’ll be using the irf1405 which I’ve used a lot in pulse motors and easily available to Aussie builders at jaycar.

My pleasure friend!!
I am glad you are going to start working on this project!!
Regards
Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Jimboot on August 28, 2022, 04:01:39 AM
My pleasure friend!!
I am glad you are going to start working on this project!!
Regards
Ufopolitics
I’ve spent a lot of time looking for/fabricating a suitable rotor. This seems far more expedient. I want to clean up my alternator first :)
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 28, 2022, 04:15:43 AM
Hi Jim,
I also am pleased you are going to work on this project.  I spent many many hours thinking about what we could use to test out the idea of a virtual moving magnetic field.  I suddenly realized that an automotive alternator pretty much already had most of what we needed.  So I did my first testing and video just to see if you could even induce a current into the rotor coil.  So you can imagine how happy I was to see that it is possible.  I think the next step for all of us is to find a good way to generate that virtual moving magnetic field.  I do plan to build that mosfet esc circuit as soon as I can so I can look at the signals from it on my scope.  The hobby esc uses PWM with very short pulses and that won't work.  But if the mosfet esc generates nice solid pulses then we may have a winner.  We'll see.


Take care my friend from OZ,
Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: bistander on August 28, 2022, 05:37:41 AM
citfta,
I have experience with VFDs powering induction motors of industrial variety. These are full wave 3-phase bridge inverters running PWM to synthesize balanced 3-phase power at a carrier frequency of 2 to 12kHz. The load inductance of the stator does an excellent job at filtering current. Scope traces are pretty smooth. And they often operate in open loop control mode without speed or position feedback. Just a set ratio of voltage to frequency. Obviously, driving induction motors, they do establish a true RMF.

These BLDC drives or ESCs needing position feedback for commutation are a different story. But beware of ruling out PWM for the RMF. And a side note, PMSM will run from open loop VFD. Perhaps not optimal performance, but I have done it.

Ultimately you want to run as a generator taking output from coils on a stationary 'rotor', right? So position feedback is moot. But it may be possible to hack a RC ESC to run open loop in a V/f mode by supplying a pulse train in place of the hall sensor or something.

Just some thoughts.
bi
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 28, 2022, 09:56:21 PM
Hello to All,


Like I have mentioned before, that I wanted to make the Electronic Components Diagram (with Symbols)...and so, here it is.

And the reason behind is to try to understand better the way circuit functions, since we all know that Fet's are just like switches, or relays...where Source-Drain are the main conducting side, while the Gate works as the turning point for the switch Gate-Drain ON or OFF.

So, I have named  Q1, Q2 and Q3 as the 3 FETs, which Drain side are connected in the same sequence as Phases A, B & C, so, Q1,D1 (Drain1) is Phase A Output, Drain2 is B Phase and finally D3 is Phase C.
And so, all components connected to each Q, are also numbered in that order as well...for easier understanding.

The main point here is to find the Sequencing Modular Order...that I assume goes from Q1 to Q2 to Q3, then return back to Q1...(I believe through Diode 3, which goes from Q3 Gate, back to Q1 Drain)
That means to identify Q1 whole Module, including all it's surrounding components...which connects to Module Q2...and so on.

And once we have a full understanding of this easy 3 part sequencing, then we could move to more number of coils, switched by more FET's driving them...in order to build a more robust, Higher Definition Magnetic Field.

The way an Alternator Stator is wound, is very simple, where each circuit of coils in series goes for the whole 360º, but alternated in Start-End positioning at specific angles-distance.

So, it is easy to make (wound), say Six Coils, instead of just three...driven by 6 FETs...separated by 60º, instead of 120º...

Still, there is some way to get there...but I  know we all could, only if we work as a Team...to reach just one main goal.

Regards to All

Ufopolitics

@Citfta: If by any means you want me to move to another Thread, please, just say it...I know somehow I have crowded your Thread here, as deviated from your original great idea!!...sorry!!
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect Holcomb and others
Post by: ariovaldo on August 28, 2022, 10:02:01 PM
Beck to Holcomb system. I received one of the rotors that I ordered. the small one.
As soon I have time I will start to work on that. The stator is a 1 HP motor with four poles that will be driven by a small VFD that can speed up to 200 Hertz. It has 4.5 Amps as the limit.
The first attempt will be just one coil in a conventional winding.
any suggestion?



Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 28, 2022, 10:33:50 PM
Hi UFO,
Your schematics are looking great!  I don't see your ideas in any way detracting from the purpose of this thread.  Your suggestions and helpful drawings are very welcome here.  I, like most people have only so much time and energy to devote to any project.  So with several of us working together we stand a much better chance of reaching our goals.
What program are you using to create the beautiful schematic drawings?  I switched to Linux about a year ago and still haven't found a good schematic program.  I spent a good part of the day yesterday trying different programs but before I finished a good schematic you had already posted yours which I liked much better than what I had.  Thanks again for your input.


Ariovaldo,
I think your idea of starting with one coil is probably a good idea.  What I have been doing is using a dual trace scope so I could monitor the signal I was putting into the stator coils and also what I was getting from the fixed rotor coils.  That will give you a pretty good idea of what is going on.  And of course some meters to measure the actual voltages on the stator and rotor.  So glad you have joined us and are sharing with us.


Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 28, 2022, 10:52:02 PM
Hi UFO,
Your schematics are looking great!  I don't see your ideas in any way detracting from the purpose of this thread.  Your suggestions and helpful drawings are very welcome here.  I, like most people have only so much time and energy to devote to any project.  So with several of us working together we stand a much better chance of reaching our goals.
What program are you using to create the beautiful schematic drawings?  I switched to Linux about a year ago and still haven't found a good schematic program.  I spent a good part of the day yesterday trying different programs but before I finished a good schematic you had already posted yours which I liked much better than what I had.  Thanks again for your input.

Carroll


Thanks Citfta, I feel better working in a Team of Positive People...as long as we work for the same goal.
I see a lot of possibilities with this so simple circuit, which I think We could modify to work on a Modular basis to be able to add more FETs and more Coils to make it more robust and less "aggressive" as too high gauge wire, like Alternators have.
We basically need somewhere around 2-3 Amps and higher voltage to generate a great exciting inducing field of higher resolution.
Now, the program I use is TurboCad (IMSI), I am running it on Windows 10/ 64...and it cost me like $260.00 USD, the Deluxe version 2021.
I have no idea if they make a Linux version...

I also have AutoCad (Autodesk)...but it is far more complex Interface than TurboCad for this simple schematics.

I had my electronic components ordered...and also have to build a rig for one of my Alternators...I got the brush assembly out, and modify it, to use it on my Rotary Switch...but no problems...I will do all that next week.

We will make this happen!!, I feel very positive about this Alternator setup that you originally came up with...basically for the simplicity in every way you look at it...the Alternator Stator winding simple ways to make it, plus this Circuit based on just a few components!!
You know the Complexity to wind a BLDC Stator...one CW, other CCW, alternated irregularly, then second circuit...then third...it is a nightmare...so, knowing the simple Alternator winding works great...I believe it is a very huge advantage.

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect Holcomb and others
Post by: bistander on August 28, 2022, 10:59:30 PM
Beck to Holcomb system. I received one of the rotors that I ordered. the small one.
As soon I have time I will start to work on that. The stator is a 1 HP motor with four poles that will be driven by a small VFD that can speed up to 200 Hertz. It has 4.5 Amps as the limit.
The first attempt will be just one coil in a conventional winding.
any suggestion?

Hi ariovaldo,
Cool. One coil. Suggestion. Yes. Wind in 2 slots only, span 90° mechanical. A very good idea for first test.
What model VFD? Possible to post photo of motor nameplate?
bi
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect Holcomb and others
Post by: ariovaldo on August 29, 2022, 12:17:47 AM
Hi ariovaldo,
Cool. One coil. Suggestion. Yes. Wind in 2 slots only, span 90° mechanical. A very good idea for first test.
What model VFD? Possible to post photo of motor nameplate?
bi
Allen Bradley
input 1ph - 110-120, 0.5 kW.
output 3ph  - 0- 230 volts


This VFD is the best option for small tests.

Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: bistander on August 29, 2022, 12:21:15 AM
Nice drive. Motor nameplate?
bi

edit BTW.
You may want to commission (set up) the drive and motor with the standard rotor in place. Get it running properly, then replace with your special 'rotor'. Often you must enter motor nameplate data into start-up or set-up menu. And choose mode to be open loop V/Hz.
I'll see if I can find the AB manual, or you have a link?
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: ariovaldo on August 29, 2022, 01:22:26 AM
Nice drive. Motor nameplate?
bi

edit BTW.
You may want to commission (set up) the drive and motor with the standard rotor in place. Get it running properly, then replace with your special 'rotor'. Often you must enter motor nameplate data into start-up or set-up menu. And choose mode to be open loop V/Hz.
I'll see if I can find the AB manual, or you have a link?


About setting the VFD up, I'm okay with that. That is my field of work. The last one that I did was three weeks ago. 3500 kW, 4160 volts. I'm very familiar with setting up and fixing that. Thanks anyway. The motor nameplate is exactly like the one in the picture.



Ariovaldo
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: bistander on August 29, 2022, 01:40:31 AM
Great. I found a manual and looked it over briefly. I am not familiar with ones which run higher output voltage than input. Will it put out 480 with 120V in?
Also, looking at that new rotor, there isn't much iron below the slots for a 4-pole field. So you're not going to get a normal flux level.
bi

edit.
Just saw motor np. Thanks. I've used Baldor, and Reliance, before the acquisition. Good motors.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: ariovaldo on August 29, 2022, 01:48:18 AM
Great. I found a manual and looked it over briefly. I am not familiar with ones which run higher output voltage than input. Will it put out 480 with 120V in?
Also, looking at that new rotor, there isn't much iron below the slots for a 4-pole field. So you're not going to get a normal flux level.
bi

edit.
Just saw motor np. Thanks. I've used Baldor, and Reliance, before the acquisition. Good motors.

The new rotor doesn't have too much iron on it. That was made for drones, A custom made is very expensive, but I can add some metal. also, I ordered a large one that can fill the whole stator, This one isn't big enough
The answer to your question is to run in 480 Volts having 120 Volts in the input; the answer for what we can find in the market is no. That isn't normal.
Ari
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: ariovaldo on August 29, 2022, 01:52:07 AM
,
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: bistander on August 29, 2022, 03:25:16 AM
The new rotor doesn't have too much iron on it. That was made for drones, A custom made is very expensive, but I can add some metal. also, I ordered a large one that can fill the whole stator, This one isn't big enough
The answer to your question is to run in 480 Volts having 120 Volts in the input; the answer for what we can find in the market is no. That isn't normal.
Ari

Thanks Ari,
Your drive np stated 120V, 1p input & 230V, 3p output. Wondered about that. Using a boost on the DC bus? Transformer? Anyway, wiring motor for 460V might limit frequency for full flux.
Sounds like you have a plan. I'll help where I can.
bi
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: kolbacict on August 29, 2022, 07:59:58 AM
This reminded me of a simple induction melting furnace.
Only for two phases instead of three.
The structure is working. :)
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Jimboot on August 29, 2022, 10:30:15 AM
My stator cleaned up nicely. Got the circuit running last night before I blew a fet. Rotating the stator definitely changed the waveform off the rotor. Rebuilding with some other fets I have.

Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: matu on August 29, 2022, 12:59:55 PM
My stator cleaned up nicely. Got the circuit running last night before I blew a fet. Rotating the stator definitely changed the waveform off the rotor. Rebuilding with some other fets I have.



hi jimboot
A double-wire stator... could be used independently, one to rotate the magnetic field, the other for standard output, letting the rotor rotate, surely we would have a transforming effect as both are in the same core, but... we would have additional induction by being turning the rotor?... just to think.
Cheers
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 29, 2022, 06:48:05 PM
Hello to All,

Here is the same exact Zafer ESC Diagram, except I have set Q1, Q2, Q3 in a "Cascade" arrangement, to be able to see the FET Modules and how they connect to each others.
I have just enclosed the Cascade Area for Q1 (light blue) and Q2 (light green)
Q3 is the end of the Sequence, therefore, it returns back to Q1 to restart cycle, through magenta colored circuits for D3 and R3.

So, if you all noticed, it is a simple Cascade diagram, where we could add more FETs Modules in between Q2 and Q3 to be able to drive more stator coils on future builds.

I will like to wind a specific stator with more coils circuits than 3...as also with lower gauge and more turns, to be able to rise Voltage and lower Amperage.

If you all noticed on Zafer Video, this circuit is driving coils at aprox 10 amps...In my opinion that is too high currents for a Generator exciter system.

After I make all tests related to original video with rotor spinning, plus check scope signals, etc,etc...I will insert a full wound static rotor taken off a small generator, to see the induction output capabilities of this setup.

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on August 29, 2022, 07:43:34 PM
My stator cleaned up nicely. Got the circuit running last night before I blew a fet. Rotating the stator definitely changed the waveform off the rotor. Rebuilding with some other fets I have.

Hey Jim,

Man, that Alternator is a beast!!...on what vehicle that goes on?
I see that it has two strands of wire per phase...I figure you should have like 0.4-.0.3 Ohms resistance there!!

Reason why it blew one of your FETs...

I would try with just one strand on each phase.

I was checking out your FETs (IRF1405) and they have even higher spec's (capacity) than the IRF3205...So, when I look at your alternator image, then I  realized where the issue was.

Rotating the stator definitely changed the waveform off the rotor.

You meant, that when you rotate the Stator (Magnetic Field) "it changed the waveform of the Rotor",  reading from the brushes, I assume?

Look at my alternators below...not even near the gauge size you have, plus you have 2 strands!!

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: kolbacict on August 29, 2022, 09:14:46 PM
And to me for some reason, no power is removed from the collector rings of the Lundel rotor .
When a three-phase voltage is applied to the stator.
And also the rotor does not want to rotate when selling direct current to the rotor. >:( :(
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on August 29, 2022, 09:20:12 PM
And to me for some reason, no power is removed from the collector rings of the Lundel rotor .
When a three-phase voltage is applied to the stator.
And also the rotor does not want to rotate when selling direct current to the rotor. >:( :(


Do you have a scope so you can show us what signals you have on the 3 phase wires?
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: kolbacict on August 29, 2022, 09:57:23 PM

Do you have a scope so you can show us what signals you have on the 3 phase wires?
There are about five volts on the Lundell rotor (brushes). Without load.
There is practically no current.
It does not depend on the position of the rotor.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Jimboot on August 30, 2022, 12:44:07 AM
Hey Jim,

Man, that Alternator is a beast!!...on what vehicle that goes on?
I see that it has two strands of wire per phase...I figure you should have like 0.4-.0.3 Ohms resistance there!!

Reason why it blew one of your FETs...

I would try with just one strand on each phase.

I was checking out your FETs (IRF1405) and they have even higher spec's (capacity) than the IRF3205...So, when I look at your alternator image, then I  realized where the issue was.

You meant, that when you rotate the Stator (Magnetic Field) "it changed the waveform of the Rotor",  reading from the brushes, I assume?

Look at my alternators below...not even near the gauge size you have, plus you have 2 strands!!

Regards

Ufopolitics
Thanks UFO - the double strand surprised me. This is my first alternator tear down.  I can measure the 2ohm rotor directly on the coil connections. Brushes removed. So I could see at least transformer action before it blew.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: kolbacict on September 01, 2022, 12:11:53 PM
this little BLDC is working  by turkey technology.  :)
https://youtube.com/shorts/u-SSQF_LIIM?feature=share  (https://youtube.com/shorts/u-SSQF_LIIM?feature=share)
speed and torque depend on the supply voltage.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on September 01, 2022, 06:33:40 PM
this little BLDC is working  by turkey technology.  :)
https://youtube.com/shorts/u-SSQF_LIIM?feature=share  (https://youtube.com/shorts/u-SSQF_LIIM?feature=share)
speed and torque depend on the supply voltage.


That is wonderful Kolbacict!!
It tell us that this Turkish Tech ESC works on any level!!
Can you please, show which one is the common Y point out of the 4 contacts?
I believe it is the far left, looking at the contacts side...based on the resistance readings.
See uploaded image, where it has the + sign.


Thanks!!


Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on September 01, 2022, 07:35:49 PM
Hello All,

Here is how I view the way to make the Circuit Board for Zafer's ESC...
If you find any errors, please, let me know, and I will fix it right away...

Thanks

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: kolbacict on September 01, 2022, 07:54:06 PM
Can you please, show which one is the common Y point out of the 4 contacts?
there are three wire in one pin soldering . That's how it's done for me, at least.
If not, the ohmmeter will show.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on September 01, 2022, 11:22:28 PM
Hi UFO,


I have gone over your PCB layout twice and I couldn't find any errors.  Looks great.  Thanks for your efforts.  I will be away from the forum for the next several days.  I may get a chance to check in once in a while.  Keep up the good work everyone.


Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Jimboot on September 02, 2022, 02:23:18 PM
Have a nice break Carroll. Thanks for
The circuit board ufo. My alternator as you realise even with the pairs in series will only be 1ohm. Fox knows what it’s out of. I can go and get another but I was wondering if i could have a 3phase rotor inside my 1kw gen stator? Im thinking the coils would need to be overlapping though rather than 3standalone poles.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on September 02, 2022, 10:44:29 PM
Hello All,


Ok, so here is the same board, just a few adjustments, except components are just "painted" on board to be installed.
In order to show all the circuit lines running under each one.
@Citfta,: Hey, have a nice get away!!
@Jim Boot, I am going to keep playing with the Alternator, I may rewind a new one my way...with thiner wire and more turns...As I found an old motor armature which fits perfectly inside, and I will also be rewinding that one too...to run it with this ESC.

Btw, I wanted to recommend a nice video below, where we can see (one of the ways) to wind a Three Phase Alternator Stator...it is interesting...
I find the field displacement to be pretty "high definition" if  we consider that each pole-phase, change-move every one teeth, and most generators have 36 tooth...So, it is about 1º per shifting phase, say, A,B & C.

WINDING AN ALTERNATOR STATOR (VERY DETAILED) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=127Kc5hc9-0&list=WL&index=1)

And so, I already have figured out, how to wind the inner Output Stator...for a higher output.

Have a nice weekend


Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on September 06, 2022, 05:06:07 PM
Hi Jimboot.
I haven't seen anything new from your testing lately.  If the low resistance of your coils is causing you problems I have a suggestion for you,  You could connect the parallel wires of each coil in series similar to Tesla's pancake bifilar coil.  Of course yours won't be a pancake but it will have twice the resistance it has with the single wires and 4 times the resistance it had with the wires in parallel.  This will also increase the capacitance of the coils which may or may not help the virtual moving field.  Not too sure about that part.
The WiFi just came back on where I am so wanted to pass that idea along while I had a chance.
Later,
Carroll



Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Jimboot on September 06, 2022, 10:51:04 PM
Hi Jimboot.
I haven't seen anything new from your testing lately.  If the low resistance of your coils is causing you problems I have a suggestion for you,  You could connect the parallel wires of each coil in series similar to Tesla's pancake bifilar coil.  Of course yours won't be a pancake but it will have twice the resistance it has with the single wires and 4 times the resistance it had with the wires in parallel.  This will also increase the capacitance of the coils which may or may not help the virtual moving field.  Not too sure about that part.
The WiFi just came back on where I am so wanted to pass that idea along while I had a chance.
Later,
Carroll
hi Carroll even in series they are only 1ohm . I’ve built a couple of the circuits using different rated fets and I’ve been testing on my 1kW gen stator. Not ideal but I’m learning a few things. May go and rescue another alternator.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: bistander on September 06, 2022, 11:08:13 PM
.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Jimboot on September 06, 2022, 11:32:21 PM
1kv? Did you mean 1kW?
bi
lol thanks just woke up. Maybe I should have coffee before typing. Fixed
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on September 07, 2022, 02:28:58 PM
Good morning All,

I finally finished the circuit and tested it with an old alternator I had to fix the brush set, it belonged to a 4.9 L V8 Caddy, so, it is huge, like 120 Amps, and have a massive steel rotor.
The alternator that they run on the videos are from smaller vehicles, lower amperage,  which have smaller rotors and higher resistance on its stator coils...

First, I wanted to make it run as a motor, before I got involved into the generator function, in order to observe all behavior...

So, I used one PSU to feed Rotor Coil, and another PSU for running the 3 Phase.

It ran wonderful, even though this circuit needs a lot of work for a better performance. First, the Source for all FETs are receiving straight power (not regulated)...so, the minute you start PSU it starts triggering, even the VR being at lowest point to the Gates. (maybe a higher resistor than 4.7K?)
Second, the FETs run extremely hot whenever consuming close to 10 amps, so, Heatsink should be pretty large...and still keep watching the temperature down or will blow them off. (And no, I did not blow any so far... :) )

Related to interesting behavior I have observed two things:

1- The Amperage on Stator is completely "inverse" to the Total Power to Rotor Coil.

a) Meaning, when I get motor running at high speed, say Stator PSU at 8.0V and 8A, while PSU to Rotor Coil is at 2.0V and 0.5-0.45A...If I lower the Rotor Coil PSU to 1.0V the Stator PSU will jump to 10A...
Shouldn't it be the opposite under normal conditions?...I mean, I lower Rotor Field down, less drag, less field strength...don't the Stator amps should also come down?...and of course, speed increases when I do that, since automatically 3 phase power goes up.

b) And so the opposite as well...If I rise Voltage on Rotor Field the Stator PSU amperage drops down...(I do this to cool FETs when running for  a while)

2- Once I have the motor running, compensated at a lower amps at stator (like 6-7A)...I could close all power to rotor coil PSU...mean, turn V-Knob all the way to zero...and motor still keeps running strong...as PSU does not goes to a complete zero, but, like 0.8V and milliamps.

I will try to upload a video later on...where I show these specific behavior.


Regards


Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on September 07, 2022, 03:17:46 PM
Ok, here is a short video about my test...

FIRST TEST ALTERNATOR AS 3 PHASE BLDC MOTOR (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owd_84rQ3Fk)

If you noticed the Motor can run at very low input to Rotor Coil, very strong and at very high speed, however, it will not restart after a slow down to stop...unless we rise again the Rotor Field power.

Also, I tried to show you what I meant, in previous post, about the inverse relation between Stator Power versus Rotor Power.

And yes, I will make another video where I will show the 3 Channel Scope Signals from each phase...but will take a while, am busy now until late this evening.
Have to set up all rigs to hook probes, make a more decent setup to hook Input power with bolts and not gator clips cables...plus add another aluminum plate to heatsink...I want to film and test relaxed that FETs will not overheat then blow.

Thanks

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: matu on September 07, 2022, 05:02:30 PM
Hello Ufopolitics, I think the behavior is correct, keep in mind that it is the stator through the regulator that supplies the current to the rotor, this, once it is turning, must be disconnected from the source, which will already demand the one it needs to the stator.
Sometimes the external power supply to the rotor will not be necessary, since the remanent magnetism will be enough to start it.
I don't think that since these alternators are configured from the factory they can supply large currents through the rotor, since if the stator is "excessive current", the regulator will lower the rotor current to a minimum.

That is why another day I advised to use a double thread in the stator, where one would be used as a normal output and the other to generate the rotating field, I have not tried it because now I do not have an alternator.
Cheers
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on September 07, 2022, 05:41:19 PM
Hello Ufopolitics, I think the behavior is correct, keep in mind that it is the stator through the regulator that supplies the current to the rotor, this, once it is turning, must be disconnected from the source, which will already demand the one it needs to the stator.

Hello Matu,

Please, let me remind you, that I know perfectly well (in case, in the event, you did not know), how an Alternator works in a "typical automotive application"
On this tests we are doing exactly the opposite, as the "typical alternator function"...
On typical alternator function, the rotor coil receives FIRST, the power from the battery (through the regulator) and Currents are induced on Stator...which then goes to the diode bridge back to the battery to be recharged, plus all other voltage supply required by vehicle.

As a "normal rotary generator", once a load is added to the alternator (say we turn on air conditioning) immediately the rotor gets stiffer, tends to lock up, due to the higher strength of the Stator Field that has increased...HOWEVER, at this point the regulator never, ever, "disconnects power to rotor coil"...or it will collapse and vehicle will stall and stop!!!
On the contrary, Regulator MUST send more power to Rotor Coil...since "demand" increased from "ON LOAD" Stator...
So, please...rethink it again...
No, the Rotor Coil NEVER gets "disconnected from Output Stator, while vehicle is running!!...

From Battery?...YES!!...once the stator builds up certain power, regulator "bridges" output from stator to the rotor coil, and disconnects from battery, once vehicle already started up.

Sometimes the external power supply to the rotor will not be necessary, since the remanent magnetism will be enough to start it.

AGAIN, NEGATIVE!!...NOPE!!
The Power supplied to an Alternator Rotor Coil MUST BE ON, AT ALL TIMES!!, whether from Battery (start up) or from Output source from alternator stator, via diode bridge.
Forget about "magnetic reminiscence" here, it "does not apply"...it will never be enough to keep battery charged up while running vehicle at max loads.
Simple, disconnect battery and then try to start the car with your "magnetic reminiscence"...good luck!!

I don't think that since these alternators are configured from the factory they can supply large currents through the rotor, since if the stator is "excessive current", the regulator will lower the rotor current to a minimum.
again...negative...it never takes place to drive rotor coil to a "minimum"...

That is why another day I advised to use a double thread in the stator, where one would be used as a normal output and the other to generate the rotating field, I have not tried it because now I do not have an alternator.
Cheers
It won't work...you can not have both (supply and demand) on the "same page" guy!!
They will both cancel to a big "zero"...
You can NOT have Induced and Inductor on the same "space-time" right next to each others...won't do...
It is either "above and below" or "face to face"...and that is it...

Good luck and thanks for your comments.

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on September 07, 2022, 05:57:37 PM
Hello to All,

While I appreciate any comments, let me remind to you all (before engaging in ridiculous comments)...that my main experience is about Automotive, in mechanical plus electrical systems...

This tests we are doing here are just to study what we are trying to demonstrate...and that is to rotate the magnetic field to induce power...without any rotary parts...
However, must of Us know that Alternators Stator windings from vehicles (any OEM as is) are not good for this purpose. since they are wound to generate high amperage output at a rated 12-14.5 Volts...so, they have low number of turns with very high gauge wire...not good at all...just look at the rotor coil spec's as the "inductor" or exciter...that is exactly what we all need to reverse the function of having the Stator become the new "exciter"!!

Second, the Claws Rotor Configuration is also NOT Good...it will induce very, very low power, because of its geometrical positioning (of core plus coil)

Resuming, these are just some tests to see behaviors...check our 3 Phase Signals are alternated...plus generating the required rotational field...then we will move on, and away from this specific configuration...

Regards

Ufopolitics

Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: kolbacict on September 07, 2022, 08:55:13 PM
I have not tried it because now I do not have an alternator.
How so?  :o You have a country of unlimited possibilities!
For example, I have a lot of rubbish.
If you do not need me, and you consider me your enemy, at least take my junk.
But only with me in the load.  ;D
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: matu on September 07, 2022, 09:28:37 PM
Hola de nuevo,
Quizás he pecado de ingenuo al querer expresarme con las mínimas palabras, ya que mi idioma materno no es el ingles y utilizo el traductor de Google para escribir y creo haber dicho lo contrario de lo que quería decir, por lo tanto hablaré en español que creo haber oído en otras ocasiones que es también su idioma materno.
En mi creencia de que en esta prueba preliminar el alternador se encontraría tal cual viene de fábrica y solo habría conectado su controlador a los terminales del estator, quedando al mismo tiempo conectado a los diodos y por lo tanto al regulador, es por lo que dije de desconectar la fuente que suministra energía a la bobina del rotor, ya que tengo comprobado por mí que no es necesario tener conectada una batería para poder colocar una carga en la salida de continua directamente, una vez que está girando el rotor con la ayuda de otro motor, en ese caso la batería solo es necesaria para el arranque y se puede quitar totalmente, incluso una vez desconectado y sin batería el alternador continuará suministrando energía con solo hacer girar el rotor.
Si hace poco tiempo que se desconectó, con solo volver a girar el rotor con otro motor, el alternador seguirá suministrando energía sin estar conectada a ninguna batería.
Desde luego si se ha desconectado totalmente la salida del estator y se ha conectado otra entrada también independiente a la bobina del rotor, esto ya no será posible.
Estoy totalmente de acuerdo en su interpretación de como funciona un alternador de coche y por supuesto no he dudado en ningún momento de vd. lo desconociera, no obstante vuelvo a pedir disculpas por no haberme expresado correctamente y no duden en borrar estos mensajes si creen que entorpecen este tema.
Saludos

Hello again,
Perhaps I have been naive in wanting to express myself with the fewest words, since my mother tongue is not English and I use the Google translator to write and I think I have said the opposite of what I wanted to say, therefore I will speak in Spanish, which I think having heard on other occasions that it is also their mother tongue.
In my belief that in this preliminary test the alternator would be as it comes from the factory and would only have connected its controller to the stator terminals, remaining at the same time connected to the diodes and therefore to the regulator, that is why I said to disconnect the source that supplies power to the rotor coil, since I have verified for myself that it is not necessary to have a battery connected to be able to place a load on the DC output directly, once the rotor is turning with the help of another engine, in that case the battery is only necessary for starting and can be completely removed, even once disconnected and without battery the alternator will continue to supply energy just by turning the rotor.
If it has been disconnected for a short time, just by turning the rotor again with another motor, the alternator will continue to supply power without being connected to any battery.
Of course, if the stator output has been completely disconnected and another independent input has been connected to the rotor coil, this will no longer be possible.
I totally agree with your interpretation of how a car alternator works and of course I have never doubted you. I was unaware of it, however I apologize again for not having expressed myself correctly and do not hesitate to delete these messages if you think they hinder this topic.
Cheers
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: matu on September 07, 2022, 09:36:20 PM
How so?  :o You have a country of unlimited possibilities!
For example, I have a lot of rubbish.
If you do not need me, and you consider me your enemy, at least take my junk.
But only with me in the load.  ;D

Muchas gracias amigo, soy español y estoy en España demasiado lejos para la chatarra y si tengo algunos alternadores pero totalmente desarmados y faltos de piezas, pero no se preocupe intentaré probar todo esto muy pronto.
Saludos y gracias de nuevo

Thank you very much friend, I am Spanish and I am in Spain too far for scrap and if I have some alternators but totally disassembled and missing parts, but do not worry I will try to test all this very soon.
Greetings and thanks again
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on September 07, 2022, 09:54:17 PM
Hi Ufo,
After a long day of sightseeing in the beautiful country of Germany I finally got time to look at this thread.  Your alternator being driven as a motor is working normally.  When you have a reasonable amount of current going through the rotor the spinning rotor is creating a back EMF into the stator. This in turn causes the stator current to go down.  When you reduce the current going to the rotor then the stator current goes up because of less back EMF being produced by the rotor's magnetic field.  When you have time please take a screen shot of the signals being produced by the FET circuit.


For the other comments.  While I appreciate other's input please go back and read what this thread is about. We are NOT trying to make a motor out of an alternator.  We are NOT trying to make a better alternator.  We ARE TRYING to find the most efficient way to make a virtual moving magnetic field. We are just using an alternator because it gives us a common easy to work with device that we can use to share our results.


Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on September 07, 2022, 11:14:39 PM
Hi Ufo,
After a long day of sightseeing in the beautiful country of Germany I finally got time to look at this thread.  Your alternator being driven as a motor is working normally.  When you have a reasonable amount of current going through the rotor the spinning rotor is creating a back EMF into the stator. This in turn causes the stator current to go down.  When you reduce the current going to the rotor then the stator current goes up because of less back EMF being produced by the rotor's magnetic field.  When you have time please take a screen shot of the signals being produced by the FET circuit.

Respectfully,
Carroll


Great Citfta, I am glad you are enjoying it!!

Here are some images, plus a short video running with Scope on...
Plus video on...

SCOPE 3 PHASE SIGNALS VID (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/engWwLqH4rg)

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Jimboot on September 08, 2022, 12:23:20 PM
Thanks for the vid ufo. May I ask where you have the probes?


Have a lovely trip Carroll sounds wonderful.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on September 08, 2022, 02:22:42 PM
Thanks for the vid ufo. May I ask where you have the probes?

Hello there Jim!

Simple connections...Probe 1 > Phase A, Probe 2 > Phase B, Probe 3 > Phase C, A>1,B>2, C>3
All probes ground clips connected to Common "Y" Positive point...

See image.

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on September 08, 2022, 05:27:43 PM
Hello All,

This would be my next project...it is a Stator from a small alternator (from a VW 1.8-2.0 Engine)...but I was able to find a Brushed Armature which fits perfectly well inside...
Stator have 36 tooth, Armature 20 Tooth...So, the Stator would be spinning the Field...and inner Armature would be the Output.
I already stripped the Alternator Stator, as you could see...then doing same to armature...to rewind the whole assy my way...
And driving it with the same 3 Phase ESC.

Let's see how it goes.

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Jimboot on September 09, 2022, 01:39:33 AM
Hello there Jim!

Simple connections...Probe 1 > Phase A, Probe 2 > Phase B, Probe 3 > Phase C, A>1,B>2, C>3
All probes ground clips connected to Common "Y" Positive point...

See image.

Regards

Ufopolitics
Why isn't that creating a short with your ground probe on the positive of the power supply? I'm a little confuzzled.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Jimboot on September 09, 2022, 01:40:50 AM
Hello All,

This would be my next project...it is a Stator from a small alternator (from a VW 1.8-2.0 Engine)...but I was able to find a Brushed Armature which fits perfectly well inside...
Stator have 36 tooth, Armature 20 Tooth...So, the Stator would be spinning the Field...and inner Armature would be the Output.
I already stripped the Alternator Stator, as you could see...then doing same to armature...to rewind the whole assy my way...
And driving it with the same 3 Phase ESC.

Let's see how it goes.

Ufopolitics
What is the armature out of? It's a bigun.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Jimboot on September 09, 2022, 03:29:34 AM
FYI published o. LinkedIn today.
“[size=78%]Yesterday was an important, happy day for Dr.[/size]
Holcomb! Two new patents arrived in the mail: US
11,418,103 B2 (the Holcomb Energy System
powering turbo fan jets
- no jet fuel, no battery
recharge, no pollution...
and turning every
aircraft into a mobile power plant when it's back
on the tarmac) and US 11,336,134 B2 (Solid-
State Multi-Pole and Uni-Pole Electric Generator
Rotor for AC/DC Electric Generators
- a
foundational patent to the HES suite of
technologies). 15 years in the making, his patents
are publishing, and more patents are issuing all
over the world!” [size=78%]https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6973690852594360320?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios (https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6973690852594360320?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios)[/size]
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Feb2006 on September 09, 2022, 04:59:52 AM
Have a look at this patent application that Solarlab talked about a while ago.
If it works it could maybe be better than Holcombs.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on September 09, 2022, 07:29:00 AM
Why isn't that creating a short with your ground probe on the positive of the power supply? I'm a little confuzzled.


Hi Jim,


Any time you are working with motor control circuits you MUST make sure your scope is isolated from the AC mains ground.  I don't know anything about the power system in Australia so I can't advise how to do that.  Here in the US we either use a 1 to 1 isolation transformer or a short extension cord with the ground pin removed.  Of course when working with real motor controls the ground pin of the scope can be a hundred or more volts above earth ground so you MUST  be very careful to not make any connections when the circuit is live.


Thanks to you and the other's who are working on this.  Together who knows what we might accomplish.


Take care,
Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Jimboot on September 09, 2022, 10:14:58 AM

Hi Jim,


Any time you are working with motor control circuits you MUST make sure your scope is isolated from the AC mains ground.  I don't know anything about the power system in Australia so I can't advise how to do that.  Here in the US we either use a 1 to 1 isolation transformer or a short extension cord with the ground pin removed.  Of course when working with real motor controls the ground pin of the scope can be a hundred or more volts above earth ground so you MUST  be very careful to not make any connections when the circuit is live.


Thanks to you and the other's who are working on this.  Together who knows what we might accomplish.


Take care,
Carroll
thanks Carroll, I’ve been measuring across g&d . I thought there must be an isolated ground looking at ufo vid. Enjoy your trip
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on September 09, 2022, 06:11:04 PM
Hi Ufo.


Thanks for posting the screen shot of all 3 phases. I have been studying it some and I think I understand how it works.  Next week I will be back home and after I get the circuit built I will have a better idea about it.  I think we can clean up the signal some.  We might have to leave a little of the spiking in there as that might be part of the triggering process.


Thanks again,
Carroll


PS: Went down to the Swiss Alps today.  Germany is certainly a very beautiful county.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: bistander on September 09, 2022, 06:54:27 PM
Hi Ufo.


Thanks for posting the screen shot of all 3 phases. I have been studying it some and I think I understand how it works.  Next week I will be back home and after I get the circuit built I will have a better idea about it.  I think we can clean up the signal some.  We might have to leave a little of the spiking in there as that might be part of the triggering process.


Thanks again,
Carroll


I've been wondering about the spikes. Was going to suggest using a free wheeling diode (FWD) across each phase winding. That would certainly reduce the V spikes, but could interfere with the primitive sequencing method. The lack of FWDs and high gate resistance (slow turn-on) causes a lot of device heat (losses). It's a neat little build, but unlikely to be practical in a 'real' device.
bi

Wonder how ariovaldo is doing with his VFD?
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on September 10, 2022, 06:06:21 PM
Hello to All,

@Citfta and @Jim Boot:
Sorry I could not get back to you before, I was very busy.

Ok, so, related to my Scope ground and Mains Ground...yes, they are connected.
Meaning, I have everything as it came from factory, no modifications.
The PSU I am using to turn Alternator as Motor, is a 60V/10Amps switched...and I have noticed whenever I am running Motor at 10 Amps, PSU goes into "High Heat Dissipation Mode"...so, the cooling fan automatically turns on at top speed while I am driving it...
It is obvious that it is driving it at "Max Load" conditions.
The other PSU I have, the 30V/5 Amps will NOT even turn it...So, that is the one I am using to feed the Rotor Coil.

This heavy gauge, small number of turns (4-5) winding on the Alternator, which results in like 1.0 Ohms or so per Phase-Coil, is NOT designed for the purposes we are looking for, or, to see it as getting Induction on a Secondary Coil(s) successfully.

It was just shown for the purposes of seen the sinewaves, which are alternated at identical off phase angles...plus all other spec's.

I have checked if it turns a small magnet at center of Hollow stator...with this OEM Winding, pulsing it with the ESC...and it does not even move it.

IMHO, the magnetic field generated by this OEM Windings, is not strong enough, as to reach the center of Stator.

It works perfectly well, if we could make a specific rotor where magnets (or the way the Claw Rotor is designed) are very close to stator coils surface.

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on September 10, 2022, 07:18:03 PM
Hello All,

Here is a CAD Image I made about the way a typical Alternator is wound...it may look "complicated", when looking at the whole thing, but it is not.
If you all notice, each phase winding comprehends Three (3) Tooth and Four (4) Slots, and are "alternated" with the next phase winding by One(1) Tooth.
This Stator is 36 Tooth total, like most Alternators have (and to me, it is the ideal core frame).

So, you start by Phase#1 (Green) where it is written, on left of diagram, which is the closest to the back wall of Stator.
And you start by winding CW first coil, then next coil (which starts in the same fourth slot) is CCW, and so on, third coil would be CW....until you close the loop with Coil#36 which must be CCW.
Same thing with Phase#2 (Blue)...in the middle layer of Stator frame, it starts One Teeth away from where Phase#1 started, but winding it CCW.
Then comes Phase#3 (Red), jumping one teeth away from Phase#2 (Blue), and first coil of Ph#3 is wound CW, same as Phase#1 (Green).

Point here is that we could modify this original winding, in order to fit the width of each phase of our future center static rotor configuration...unless you could find a rotor with 36 Tooth from a brushed motor...but I doubt it could be found on this size.
And of course, I will be winding the Inner Static Rotor frame, the same way as Outer Stator...meaning, with the same Three Phase winding configuration.
But, we will need to try to "match" each Phase from Outer Stator with the Inner Rotor...

In my case, the inner rotor I have, which fits perfectly well is 20 tooth...so for me, the three tooth coils/four slots per phase, on outer stator, will not work...
But, no sweat, I can make each phase coil to comprehend four (4) tooth/5 slots, instead of three/four....have to make it on CAD first...working on it.

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on September 10, 2022, 07:29:10 PM
What is the armature out of? It's a bigun.

Hello there Jim!!

Sorry could not get back to you before Jim...yes, that rotor armature is off an automotive radiator cooling fan motor, it is the type that looks like a flat, pancake motor...unfortunately, I believe, (not sure though) these motors are only build for US made vehicles, like FORD, MOPAR and GM...

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: kolbacict on September 11, 2022, 11:54:42 AM
Actually, it is possible to make a similar circuit both on thyristors, and on gas thyratrons and even neon
lamps. I think. And that will be rotating.  I admit that with the worst characteristics. But it will.
Something similar I had  done. These are called three-phase ring multivibrators.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on September 13, 2022, 02:49:52 PM
Hello All,

Point here is that we could modify this original winding, in order to fit the width of each phase of our future center static rotor configuration...unless you could find a rotor with 36 Tooth from a brushed motor...but I doubt it could be found on this size.

Hello "Ufo",

Related to your above statement...Yes, correct, it would be very hard to find a 36 Tooth Rotor, which happens to fit inside the Outer Stator core...
HOWEVER, You must have in mind that the number of tooth for that Inner Stator-Rotor MUST BE divisible by the number "3"...like 18, 12 or 9...

And of course, I will be winding the Inner Static Rotor frame, the same way as Outer Stator...meaning, with the same Three Phase winding configuration.
But, we will need to try to "match" each Phase from Outer Stator with the Inner Rotor...

Correct so far...

In my case, the inner rotor I have, which fits perfectly well is 20 tooth...so for me, the three tooth coils/four slots per phase, on outer stator, will not work...
But, no sweat, I can make each phase coil to comprehend four (4) tooth/5 slots, instead of three/four....have to make it on CAD first...working on it.

Regards

Ufopolitics

Yeah, yeah...Ok, So, point here is that the 20 tooth Rotor config -you were thinking before- will NOT work!!
And yes, I already did the CAD drawing for 20 T...it will NOT work...
So, I did it based on 18 tooth...which is divisible by three (3)...and allows to wind six coils for each phase...for a total of 18 coils.
Since You did not have an 18 tooth available, which will fit inside the stator cores...so I went back to the Modular Isolated Elements scenario you had before, and adapt it to the Inner diameter size of your Outer Stators.
Now, on the Outer Stator Winding, I just had to move ONE SLOT back, Phase#2 and Phase#3...in order to match properly with the Rotor winding angles config.
But, leaving each coil wrapping Three (3) Tooth, like it was shown originally on your Alternator Winding Diagram...
It should work now...

You are welcome Ufo... ;D

Regards

The smarter Ufo...


 ;D  ...sorry guys, but I had to quote myself on my post above, in order to correct some things I wrote previously...may sound a bit weird...lol.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on September 20, 2022, 09:05:07 PM

The following is the code for an Arduino Uno board to flash 3 LEDs in order and repeat over and over.  I have modified the program to read a potentiometer and adjust the speed of flashing of the LEDs.  I believe we can use this to generate a nice clean 3 phase signal.  When I get time I will post a video of it in action.  But the signals look nice on the scope.  They are nice and square with one pulse following the next cleanly.  The output is a square wave.  My next part of the project is to connect the output to some opto-couplers to drive either mosfets or IGBTs.  Then we will be ready for some more testing of the rotating magnetic field.  I chose the Arduino Uno because it is easily available for others and also there are literally thousands of programs and projects that use Arduino boards so it is likely some of you are already familiar with using it.




Quote
/*
  For Loop Iteration


 Demonstrates the use of a for() loop.
 Lights multiple LEDs in sequence.


 The circuit:
 * LEDs from pins 2 through 4 to ground


 


 http://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/ForLoop
 */
int sensorPin = A0;    // select the input pin for the potentiometer


int sensorValue = 0;  // variable to store the value coming from the sensor




void setup() {
  // use a for loop to initialize each pin as an output:
  for (int thisPin = 2; thisPin < 5; thisPin++) {
    pinMode(thisPin, OUTPUT);
  }
}


void loop() {
  //read the value from the sensor:
  sensorValue = analogRead(sensorPin);
  // loop from the lowest pin to the highest:
  for (int thisPin = 2; thisPin < 5; thisPin++) {
    // turn the pin on:
    digitalWrite(thisPin, HIGH);
    delay(sensorValue);
    // turn the pin off:
    digitalWrite(thisPin, LOW);
  }
}




Decided to add a picture of the signals.  I only have a two channel scope working at this time so one of the signals is missing.


Later,
Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on September 23, 2022, 02:03:53 PM
Hello to All,

Basically @ Citfta, as to any other one who is working on this project...I wanted to make this short comment.
According to my tests with the Alternator driven by the FET's ESC:

I have noticed that this pulses to the outer stator, only output this clear -spaced out/off phase- signals, as long as there is the Rotor Field turned on, present.
Otherwise, (if we turn it off, or even lower its power too much) the signals on the 3 Phases distorts to a very high frequency...while, of course, rotor will stop turning.

In other words, it is NOT the same configuration as when I use my Rotary Switch, where the signals are present, no matter if or not, there is another field on the other side...

So, I wonder if this would work (output the spaced out signals back again), when we load the output coils on a static rotor, since it would be forming that secondary field, but static...

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on September 23, 2022, 09:07:55 PM
I would certainly try to load the rotor while applying the pulses to the stator and see what happens.  I do know from my testing that the position of the rotor will affect how well the energy is induced into the rotor.  So you might want to try slowly adjusting the position of the stationary rotor while applying the pulses.


I have not had time yet to build the FET ESC.  I got sidetracked with the idea of making a digital circuit for creating square wave pulses.  So I put together the simple circuit I posted about above.  I am still trying to catch up on things here at home after getting back from my trip.  I want to connect my digital circuit to some opto-couplers and some FETs or IGBTs and drive the stator coils with those square wave pulses to see what that does to the rotor.


On another thought.  Do you remember what frequency you were getting with your mechanical switching system?  I realize that up to a point the higher the frequency the more power will be induced into the fixed rotor coils.  The higher frequency should be just like moving the magnets faster in the regular generator.  I tested my original alternator output when turning it at high speed with the scooter motor and the output frequency was about 225 hz.  That was also turning it faster than when I had it hooked to the second alternator.  I am guessing that when I had them hooked together I was only driving the second one with a frequency of maybe 175 hz.  Just another area to research.


Take care,
Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Jimboot on September 24, 2022, 12:58:16 AM
I’ve moved away from the alternator but I have a 3 phase washing machine bldc motor. I have removed the pms from the rotor and will be replacing with coils. The stator is 3 phase but only looks like a couple of ohms so I may rewind it. As my rotor has 8 poles I should be able to try something closer to how I think Holcomb is doing it. I’ve built the esc circuit with irf1405 and irfpc50 . It’s good to test with but once I have my rotor wound I’ll be looking for a circuit that is simply flipping the polarity of each coil to create the rotation rather than pulsing them.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: kolbacict on September 24, 2022, 07:46:13 PM
This works even if a three-phase transformer is connected instead of a three-phase motor stator.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Dog-One on September 25, 2022, 04:55:29 PM
It’s good to test with but once I have my rotor wound I’ll be looking for a circuit that is simply flipping the polarity of each coil to create the rotation rather than pulsing them.

Here you go.  This seems to work well on the bench.  A new bench by the way, built just for this project.

I'll keep working towards a final PCB if there is any interest.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Jimboot on September 26, 2022, 09:12:18 AM
Hey Maaaaaate! Good to hear from you. Thanks for that. I got distracted playing with my Signal generator on one of the stator coils of my generator on the weekend. That was interesting. Didn't think I'd be able to dimly light 130 LED strip off it at the right frequency. I'll now get back to winding my rotor :)
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: citfta on September 29, 2022, 07:03:45 PM
Hi Dog-One,


Thanks for your input.  The circuit looks very nice as well as the video.  I see you are planning to pulse 4 coils.  I am wondering what configuration you had in mind for the arrangement of the coils?


In regards to the idea of pulsing the coils with opposite polarity I am wondering why you or Jimboot think that is necessary.  When you pulse a coil with DC one side of the coil is going to be North and the other side is going to be South.  That is why in a motor half of the coil is on one side of the rotor and the other half is on the opposite side of the rotor.  This allows both polarities to act on the rotor.  However depending on the arrangement of the coils applying alternating polarities may be beneficial.  Like a lot of what we do trying different ideas is always worth checking in to.  I will be looking forward to seeing what results you get.


Thanks again for your input,
Carroll
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Dog-One on September 29, 2022, 10:36:11 PM
Hi Dog-One,


Thanks for your input.  The circuit looks very nice as well as the video.  I see you are planning to pulse 4 coils.  I am wondering what configuration you had in mind for the arrangement of the coils?

My focus is towards patent US11336134B2, Figure 23.  What I see there is an inner and outer exciter coil placed on 16 poles where the collector coils (stator) fits in between.  This arrangement looks to have four magnetic quadrants, with the exciter dividing it up into 22.5 degrees per quadrant.  According to Dr. Holcomb, one can expect a COP somewhere between 3 and 5.  Not sure I actually buy into that statement.  I would think one could easily find themselves with a device that is COP < 1, or 2 or 2.5 with maybe a theoretical maximum of 5.  His statement is a little disconcerting to me.  TinselKooala mentioned 1.2 as the goal.  That would be a COP where we have the ability to loop the device; anything greater is gravy and we scale up or out as necessary.

I actually would prefer to have more stator poles.  One reason for this is to shorten the flux path on the outside perimeter.  The other reason is to tighten up the resolution.  What I mean by that is to compress the angles for each tick of the excitor circuits.  So instead of 22.5 degrees per tick, I'm thinking 15 degrees or less would be better, provided I can pack enough windings next to each other on the inner exciter coils.

If we were to use a typical alternator core, I think it has 36 segments.  Then we divide this up by the four exciter circuits.  That gives us nine output phases, which is fine.  I plan on rectifying each of these anyway and dumping them on a DC output bus.  With 36 segments, we have 10 degrees resolution, which is real good, but winding those inner exciter coils is going to be very tight.

Something practical I can actually build would have 24 segments, giving us 15 degrees resolution and six output phases.  I think that will be a sweet spot and I might actually be able to find a core that is close and if not, I'll have to find someone with a waterjet cutter and hope I can find some electrical steel for them to cut.

In regards to the idea of pulsing the coils with opposite polarity I am wondering why you or Jimboot think that is necessary.  When you pulse a coil with DC one side of the coil is going to be North and the other side is going to be South.  That is why in a motor half of the coil is on one side of the rotor and the other half is on the opposite side of the rotor.  This allows both polarities to act on the rotor.  However depending on the arrangement of the coils applying alternating polarities may be beneficial.  Like a lot of what we do trying different ideas is always worth checking in to.  I will be looking forward to seeing what results you get.

Attention to detail.  UFOpolitics did this to me, so blame him if I sound anal retentive.  hehe

Picture the magnetic circuit(s) for a particular set of exciter coils.  Think of the steel in those circuits as being permanent magnets.

Now imagine a shift, one tick of the exciter coils clockwise or counter-clockwise.  Did you notice where a north/south flux became a south/north flux and when that flux change swept across a stator coil?  Did you notice which side of the stator coil it swept?  One side a N/S to S/N sweep produces a positive voltage on the stator coil and the other side produces a negative voltage.  So what we want are two sweeps:  the N/S to S/N on the leading edge produces a positive voltage and the S/N to N/S on the trailing edge also produces a positive voltage.  We want both of those EMFs in-phase and to happen simultaneously.  We have to match our exciter coils and segments to our collector (stator) coils.  I'm pretty sure that's the main concept behind this HES device.  The flux paths just "happen" to cross or cut the collector wires at the right place and at the right time.  These wires get induced an EMF because they experience a localized magnetic flux change.  We know the rest right?  The EMF they produce is shunted by a load that causes them to produce their own magnet field that opposes the change in flux that created the EMF in the first place.  The trick here the way I see it is, in the HES device, this opposing magnet flux (Lenz) assists the shifting of the exciter coils.  It actually starts magnetizing a pole that we were about to magnetize in the same polarity anyway as well as demagnetizing another pole that we were going to have to apply a current to to get a pole flip.  There has to be a slight offset between what we call the rotor and the stator.  This offset has to be tuned to the speed at which we shift excitor coils and the remanence of the steel.  I see this from a mechanical perspective as degrees which is why I think we want tight resolution of the excitor coils.  If we build a prototype where this resolution is too sloppy, we won't be able to tune it and a COP of 1.2 or higher is out of the question.

Thanks again for your input,
Carroll

Not a problem Carroll.  I really doubted I would be able to contribute anything let alone actually attempt to build one of these devices.

Something I should mention:  I think the digital aspect of this device is important.  You recall all those magnetic motor videos where the inventor went to great pains to overcome the dreaded "sticky spot"?  We have digital switching with this concept.  We can hop right over the sticky spot and we can do it in such a way where we create the maximum pulling force while minimizing the drag force.  I think this equates directly into COP > 1 potential.  That ability coupled with the resolution may be where Dr. Holcomb comes up with his numbers of 3 to 5 times energy gain.  So you might ask, how can this work with a 3-phase excitor?  I'm not certain you can do it with true analog 3-phase, but I bet you could do it with synthesized "digital" 3-phase.  So the experiment you started with in this thread may never show us what we're looking for, but it did provide a lot of food-for-thought on what we can do.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Jimboot on September 29, 2022, 11:38:30 PM
Thanks for being anal Matt and thanks for the contribution. Carroll my reasoning for alternating coil polarities isn’t anywhere near as Sophisticated. It’s just that is what his original vid showed the rotor doing.


I’m currently distracted with a signal generator, amp and my 1kva stator/rotor. Pulsing the 1ohm coil on the stator I can brightly light a 25watt incandescent off the 8ohm stator coil  and 1wire lighting of a cfl off the rotor coils in series(one hAnd territory) which gives a heck of a belt but low current.
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Dog-One on September 30, 2022, 04:17:26 AM
Something practical I can actually build would have 24 segments, giving us 15 degrees resolution and six output phases.  I think that will be a sweet spot and I might actually be able to find a core that is close and if not, I'll have to find someone with a waterjet cutter and hope I can find some electrical steel for them to cut.

A quick sketch of what I'm thinking.  Outside diameter is ten inches for the moment.  As Professor Eric Laithwaite mentioned, electro-magnetic machines gain efficiency with larger size, which is fine as long as I don't need a crane to work on the thing.

Also discovered something called Cold Rolled Motor Lamination (CRML) – ASTM A726 that should be suitable for a prototype.
https://www.laminationspecialties.com/electrical-steel/ (https://www.laminationspecialties.com/electrical-steel/)

Not certain heat treatment would really be necessary for a prototype.  If it works and I have the desire to squeeze another 10% out of it, I can always get the second set of laminates annealed.   ;)
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on September 30, 2022, 03:12:55 PM
Carroll my reasoning for alternating coil polarities isn’t anywhere near as Sophisticated. It’s just that is what his original vid showed the rotor doing.

Hello there Jim!!

I now can see what you meant by 'alternating polarities'...when you show that image...however, you must realize -on his setup- that HES is actually reversing Four coils at a time per angle shifting...so, I made this image for you, to see what I mean.
1-So, on upper left circled coil, which is blue now, it shifts to South (Red)
2-The upper circle Right coil, which is Red (South) now, becomes North (Blue)
3-The lower Blue (N) Right Coil in the circle becomes South (Red)
4-The lower Left Coil (now Red/South) becomes Blue/North.

And so, that operation (which takes place at unisom) displaces an angular rotation of the Four Poles, following the two arrows direction.

Point about this type of switching, is that ALWAYS, there are at least Three(3) Coils next to each others, which are constantly maintaining the same main polarity during angular transitions...this way the main fields never collapse.

Now, on the other hand, if you just reverse polarities to full Groups of coils...it would not displace the fields...it would just "flash them" in alternated polarities without a rotary pattern.

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
Post by: Ufopolitics on September 30, 2022, 03:27:55 PM

In regards to the idea of pulsing the coils with opposite polarity I am wondering why you or Jimboot think that is necessary.  When you pulse a coil with DC one side of the coil is going to be North and the other side is going to be South.  That is why in a motor half of the coil is on one side of the rotor and the other half is on the opposite side of the rotor.  This allows both polarities to act on the rotor.  However depending on the arrangement of the coils applying alternating polarities may be beneficial.  Like a lot of what we do trying different ideas is always worth checking in to.  I will be looking forward to seeing what results you get.

Thanks again for your input,
Carroll

Hello Citfta,

Sorry I have not replied, being busy...about doing that test you have suggested, on loading rotor coil while pulsing stators coils...I want to do that test...but, did not get a chance...

Related to your above statement, remember that the way an alternator stator is wound, by having Three Layers of alternated coils in reversed configurations, which outputs NSNSNSNSNS...then on second and third layers are wound the same way, except they are off phase/angle, by jumping one or two teeth.

What I found very interesting, is that this type of arrangement, not only serves very well as Output Coils, like it does in all alternators, with very high amperage...but now with our recent tests shown, we can see that this winding arrangement also works as a rotating field(s) which can turn the rotor field...

Therefore, I am very confident that we could use the same winding pattern for both components in a Generator...the Output Stator and the Exciter.

Whenever I find the time I will be uploading a video about my test(s)

Regards

Ufopolitics