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Author Topic: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others  (Read 14041 times)

Offline citfta

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2022, 01:22:21 PM »
Bi,


You are correct about the brushes not being needed on the output alternator if I lock the rotor as I intend to do on the final testing.  But on the other alternator I will be turning the rotor so I will need the brush holders.  I also intend to vary the input power going to the brushes on the generating alternator.  And in the interest of learning more I intend to try the output alternator both with the rotor free to spin and with it locked.  I think I know what I will see but I want to verify that with actual testing.


Making the brush holders shouldn't take too long as they can be made of anything that is non-conducting.  And I have a milling machine.  So sometime tomorrow I should be ready for testing.  Both alternators have actual brush holders that make connections to and support the brushes.  What I have to make are supporting holders for them because they were mounted to the regulators.


Thanks for all for their comments and suggestions.
Carroll

Offline matu

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2022, 01:27:39 PM »
Hello, in case it could be of help, I leave you some similar tests that a Spanish friend carried out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhEGuX8GyBM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DahfeaGj3xo

Cheers

Offline citfta

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2022, 03:45:45 PM »
matu,


Thanks for sharing those videos.  What I saw in the second video did not make a lot of sense to me.  So I will continue with my research and testing.  I think his frequency of AC coming from the first alternator was too high for the second rotor to lock to when he shorted the rotor with it stopped.  If he had gotten the second rotor turning faster and then shorted the slip rings I believe the second rotor would have locked to the rotating magnetic field. His second alternator behaved like an industrial 3 phase motor with one of the phases missing.  In that condition they have low torque and have to be started by hand and can be started in either direction.  In other words I think his testing might have a problem.  I will know more when I get my system together.


Thanks again for sharing,
Carroll

Offline Ufopolitics

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2022, 07:51:57 PM »
Hello Citfta,

On this type of test, I will consider to use one of this old type alternators...like for 1980's Truck vehicles...or earlier, for the purpose of their simplicity at the regulator and bridges...
Can you leave on, the Diode Bridge on the 3 phase Generator side , and feed the second (rotary 3 phase field) from the 3 wires going to the bridge?
The reason I am writing this, is to be able to "jump" your exciter coil -directly- with the same electrical output from the bridge Positive-Negative.
I believe this way you will just need to control rotation speed through the electric motor...and may even get a 12V CAR Battery to charge it as you test it...

IMHO, I believe this is the correct way for all these Systems...same way it works for any Generator out there...which does not require any external Input...just rotation of the field.
In a Car Alternator we have the same thing, except it also charges the Battery, but, if you disconnect battery (of course, after vehicle started)...vehicle will keep running, plus all accessories working...just because Alternator is 'back-feeding' itself.

After all they are designed to do just that...as I believe an External Input, say from a Battery is only for startup purposes...otherwise the Amperage to the exciter field would be of very low amps...so you will not get a strong field.

That is exactly what I believe happened to the previous spanish guy video shown by Matu on the first video...He only gets like Milliamps...when these generators work on very High Amps. He is feeding the Alternator Generator exciter -at all time- with a small, maybe 7Ah battery, used for House Alarms...

Hope you understand my point.

Regards

Ufopolitics

Offline citfta

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2022, 08:20:15 PM »
Hi Ufo,
I do understand what you are saying, but I want to be able to adjust the input power to the slip rings.  That way I can see what effect changing the input power has on the output as well as being able to adjust for changing speed of the input rotor.  If the theories about a virtual rotating magnetic field are correct as I go up in speed on the input rotor my output should increase in voltage.  By being able to adjust my input voltage I can then control all variables.
From what I saw on the two videos I believe he did not have all 3 phases going to the output alternator.  It just didn't act right.  I could be wrong but I am pretty sure he was only getting a single phase to the output alternator. 
Got to get back to work.
Take care,
Carroll


PS: Hope to have something to show by tomorrow.

Offline Ufopolitics

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2022, 08:40:28 PM »
Hi Ufo,
I do understand what you are saying, but I want to be able to adjust the input power to the slip rings.  That way I can see what effect changing the input power has on the output as well as being able to adjust for changing speed of the input rotor.  If the theories about a virtual rotating magnetic field are correct as I go up in speed on the input rotor my output should increase in voltage.  By being able to adjust my input voltage I can then control all variables.
From what I saw on the two videos I believe he did not have all 3 phases going to the output alternator.  It just didn't act right.  I could be wrong but I am pretty sure he was only getting a single phase to the output alternator. 
Got to get back to work.
Take care,
Carroll


Hi Carroll,

I can tell you what will happen whenever you accelerate the field speed: Voltage Output will go up...but Amperage at Input will go down.

And that is exactly what I was saying before...that if you feed the brushes at generator, from a fixed, stable source, like a Battery...or a PSU...it will not respond directly to any of your Output demand, basically seen whenever you load it.

Whenever you loop the Alternator out to exciter (and you could still regulate it, by inserting a circuit in between with a potentiometer) it will be a proportionate response to any speed variation of the field you make.

Swear I will not bother you anymore (for today, lol)...I was just suggesting ways to be successful here.

Take care

Ufopolitics



Offline citfta

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2022, 09:01:44 PM »
OKay,


Got the alternators done and working.  Got a video uploaded that shows what the signal looks like.  I forgot that when I zoom the camera it blanks out the audio.  The only thing you probably missed is that the bulb in the video is a 120 volt night light.  Everything seemed to work just like I expected.  My only surprise was that if I short out the output the rotor on the output alternator stops.  I thought that by shorting the output the current would rise on the rotor and cause an increase in the magnetic field of the rotor and thus would have more torque.  But that doesn't seem to be the case.  If the rotor it freely turning and I short out  the output then the rotor stops.  I did not show that in the video.  But the video does show how the frequency and voltage increase when I stop the rotor.


Here is the link:
https://ugetube.com/watch/OTyaKIHaevI6co9


I hope you enjoy it.  OH and please ignore the messy bench.  But it takes a mess to make a project.


Carroll

Offline Ufopolitics

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2022, 09:54:28 PM »
Hello Citfta,

Thanks for sharing your video!!
Yes I did enjoy it!!
I will  tell you things that I noticed on your setup...that may need some attention...or maybe I am wrong...please correct me if so.

1- First, the Alternator Generator you are using must have a specific RPM to operate properly (You could search it according to year + model)...normally Alternators run on a low RPM, basically to keep charging the system even when Engine is running at idle (like 800 RPM's)...then Alternator would run lower than that.

IMHO, your Motor is driving it too fast...check at a lower speed.

2- Second, and according to your description, the PSU on left of video screen is for the motor...and the PSU on the right is to supply V & A to the brushes on the 3 Phase Alternator Generator...am I correct so far?
If so, then your Generator is receiving around 5 Volts (not even reaching the 5V line...so would say like 4.75V...and 3 Amps.
And that is not the right Voltage for an Alternator...Resulting that the Field you are generating is very weak, no matter if you get 10 Amps....and that is based on the Alternator wire gauge being pretty thick (I would say they have like 16 gauge easy) then resistance is very low...so, your PSU would react according to those parameters then compensate its output.

IMHO, it is too low Voltage for the Input.

As a result, when you short the output it will stop the free rotor at the rotating field/output set.

3- Finally, in your Output set, if the rotor rotates...then it will not Output at Max range.
The Rotor is supposed to be static, so that the Field changes are reflected on a static core...if it moves, then it will travel with the rotating field...no radical changes would be seen by Induced Coil...so, it is like a rotating transformer, where primary and secondary are spinning.

Anyways, would love to see the Three Sine waves generated by the three wires going to the second alternator on a 4 channel scope...if possible.

Excelent video, thanks again for sharing!!

Regards

Ufopolitics

Offline bistander

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2022, 10:18:28 PM »
I think the output rotor is always turning slower than the primary alternator, therefore the scope frequency is the difference between the two, correct? Assuming the two have same pole count.
Nice job, citfta.
However I still contend, the output coil sees an alternating flux, like a transformer, not a moving or traveling flux, like a generator armature coil. I don't know a simple way to verify that with the hardware.
bi
edit:
The second alternator is actually running as a combined motor generator. It is inducing rotor current like an induction motor while you pick off armature generated voltage to power the lamp. Cool. Not sure that I can explain why it stalls when shorted, except it drops below breakdown torque value.

Offline citfta

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2022, 10:39:00 PM »
Hi Ufo,


Your observation are correct except for one thing.  Although a car engine does operate at a wide range of speed the pulley on the alternator is much smaller than the pulley on the car engine therefore the alternator actually turns much faster than the speed of the car engine.  The scooter motor I used in the video does not have enough torque to turn the alternator at high speed if I turn up the current going to the slip rings of the alternator.  I did try turning it up more but as the current went up it overloaded the scooter motor and caused the current to go up too high on it.  You have to remember that a car engine has much more power to drive the alternator than my little scooter motor.


I did actually look at each one of the phases individually with the scope before I made the video and I could remake the video with one of the phases and the output showing at the same time.  I do have an old 4 channel scope but it died on me a while back and I just haven't taken the time to repair it.  I guess I need to do that one of these days.  The scope I am using now only has 2 channels.


As you may have noticed I did stop the rotor several times.  I only let it free rotate to show that even then there is voltage and current being generated but when stopped the frequency of the generated power and the voltage of the generated power both went up.  So there is definitely a moving magnetic field being generated.


I see Bi made a comment while I was typing this.  I think the above paragraph addresses his comment.  If there was only transformer action I don't think stopping the rotor would cause the frequency to go up.  Also if I slow down the drive motor the frequency goes down.  And Bi what is causing the rotor to rotate if not a rotating field?


Carroll

Offline Ufopolitics

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2022, 10:40:56 PM »
Not sure that I can explain why it stalls when shorted...

Hello Bi,

I believe rotor stalls (stops) when shorted output, because it magnetizes with its own induced energy.
then it locks down to stator steel.
By the Field being weak, will not be able to move it when locked.

Just my opinion...

Regards

Ufopolitics

Offline Ufopolitics

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2022, 10:48:16 PM »
Hi Ufo,

Your observation are correct except for one thing.  Although a car engine does operate at a wide range of speed the pulley on the alternator is much smaller than the pulley on the car engine therefore the alternator actually turns much faster than the speed of the car engine.  The scooter motor I used in the video does not have enough torque to turn the alternator at high speed if I turn up the current going to the slip rings of the alternator.  I did try turning it up more but as the current went up it overloaded the scooter motor and caused the current to go up too high on it.  You have to remember that a car engine has much more power to drive the alternator than my little scooter motor.


Carroll


Yes Citfta, you are correct...if you increase Field strength, the rotor would get very stiff (even more when a load is connected)...and your motor would not be able to drive it.
That is why I like to rotate the Field without depending on Lenz Physical Law... ;)


Good job!!


Ufopolitics

Offline Jimboot

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2022, 11:11:58 PM »
Thanks for doing that and sharing Carroll. Simpler fabrication ideas are needed. This was very interesting.

Offline SolarLab

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2022, 11:25:56 PM »
 Thanks Carrol - very interesting and educational demo video!

Curious as to what the voltage and current of the three phase signals might be.
Reason I ask is related to building a solidstate uProcessor based 3-phase driver.

SL




Offline citfta

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2022, 01:32:05 AM »
I don't know why but I can't seem to upload a picture.  I have tried 4 times to upload a picture of a scope shot showing one of the 3 phase signals and the output signal so you could compare them.  I don't know what the current is of the 3 phase signals but the voltage is about 10 volts peak to peak.


I did discover that the output signal is always locked in sync to the 3 phase signal.  So apparently Bi is correct that some transformer action is taking place.  And the interesting thing is that when i lock the rotor and the frequency of the output signal goes up the frequency of the 3 phase signal also goes up.  So I guess that means that a locked rotor reduces the load on the driving motor.  I am not sure what that means but I find it interesting.


The picture I wanted to share shows that the 3 phase input signal is much smaller in voltage than the output voltage.  I think that is interesting but it may only mean that the current of the 3 phase signal is higher than the output signal.  I guess I need to find a way to measure that.  Been a long day.  Maybe tomorrow.


Later,
Carroll