Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Google Search

Custom Search

Author Topic: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others  (Read 10892 times)

Offline Ufopolitics

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 455
Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2022, 02:24:47 AM »
I don't know why but I can't seem to upload a picture.  I have tried 4 times to upload a picture of a scope shot showing one of the 3 phase signals and the output signal so you could compare them.
Later,
Carroll

Hi Cifta,

The images must be the size and type specified right below the upload section:

I copied and pasted below in quotes:

Quote
Allowed file types: txt, tif, xls, doc, odt, pdf, jpg, jpeg, gif, mp3, mpg, flv, mp4, mpeg, png, rm, ra, rmv, avi, zip, wmv, wma, rar, qt, mov, swf, asf, wm2d, 3gp, 3g2
Restrictions: 12 per post, maximum total size 15000KB, maximum individual size 150000KB


I think the size is written wrong, or inverted, individual size= 15000kb/ Total per post 150,000kb

Plus, the width should be 1000 Px max


Take care

Ufopolitics

Offline SolarLab

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 347
Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2022, 03:57:22 AM »
I don't know why but I can't seem to upload a picture.  I have tried 4 times to upload a picture of a scope shot showing one of the 3 phase signals and the output signal so you could compare them.  I don't know what the current is of the 3 phase signals but the voltage is about 10 volts peak to peak.


I did discover that the output signal is always locked in sync to the 3 phase signal.  So apparently Bi is correct that some transformer action is taking place.  And the interesting thing is that when i lock the rotor and the frequency of the output signal goes up the frequency of the 3 phase signal also goes up.  So I guess that means that a locked rotor reduces the load on the driving motor.  I am not sure what that means but I find it interesting.


The picture I wanted to share shows that the 3 phase input signal is much smaller in voltage than the output voltage.  I think that is interesting but it may only mean that the current of the 3 phase signal is higher than the output signal.  I guess I need to find a way to measure that.  Been a long day.  Maybe tomorrow.


Later,
Carroll

 Carrol,

Thanks again; 10 Vpp is easy to do from 3 processor DACs through Power OpAmps or Audio Amps.

An interesting device you've developed!

SL

One suggestion for "picture manipulations:"

InfanView (32 or 64) freeware (it's clean) Used it for years:

Install:
https://www.irfanview.com/main_download_engl.htm or
https://www.irfanview.com/64bit.htm
+ Plugins - (both can be downloaded as self extracting or zip format)

Use: (lots of features and file types, including animated .gif)
Pictures, etc. can be easily sized by using (ribbon) Image | Resize/Resample [Ctl-R]
- Set new size as percentage of original;
- reduce file size; see help (No one click solution, but .... new JPG option: Set file size, etc.
- save in nearly any format.
 

Offline citfta

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1000
Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2022, 03:11:19 PM »
I appreciate all the suggestions for uploading pictures but I have been uploading pictures to this forum for years.  My problem is my internet service.  I have Verizon wireless internet.  It works through the cell phone system.  In the evening after everyone gets home the system slows down to a crawl.  I live out in the country and the Verizon system is just overloaded.  I plan to switch to T-Mobile very soon.  Here in the southeast U.S. T-Mobile has internet speeds almost twice the speed of Verizon.  And their system is rapidly expanding so they are staying ahead of being overloaded.


Well anyway here is the picture I tried to upload last night.


The yellow trace (channel 1) is the signal from one of the 3 phases to another.  The blue trace (channel 2 ) is the output signal from the slip ring of the second alternator.

Offline bistander

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 263
Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2022, 03:42:12 PM »
Cool. Obviously same frequency. Rotor is locked, right?
bi

Offline citfta

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1000
Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2022, 04:08:33 PM »
Yes,  when that scope shot was taken the rotor was locked.  You have mentioned a couple of times that you thought only transformer action was taking place and not a rotating magnetic field.  I think what is actually going on is both.  In a usual configuration a 3 phase industrial motor works by induction or transformer action.  The stator coils induce a current into the rotor that locks the rotor to the stator field but since the stator field is rotating the rotor follows the rotating field.  If  you lose one of the connections then the rotor only sees a single phase.  And therefore has no rotating field to follow.  You can get it spinning by hand and the changing field of the single phase will cause it to keep rotating but the torque is greatly reduced.  Another proof of the rotating field is that by interchanging any two wires of the 3 phase system we cause the rotor to turn in the opposite direction because we have changed the order of the rotating magnetic field.


I think the scope shot shows that the output frequency is locked to the input frequency but is that because of only transformer action or is it also because the field is rotating and the stator is not?  Like you mentioned earlier I am not sure how we could prove it one way or the other.  If you or anyone else has any suggestions for answering that question I am willing to do more testing.


Carroll

Offline bistander

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 263
Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2022, 04:36:04 PM »
You have the rotating magnetic field (RMF) in the stator but that does not translate to the coil inside the claw (Lundell) rotor as an RMF due to the orientation of the coil (axial instead of radial). That coil sees it just as an alternating flux.

Try the same test allowing rotation and you should see a lower frequency induced in the rotor coil, and lower peaks.

I think the 'slave' machine rotation is cause by induction of eddy currents in the steel rotor claws, not the coil. Like an induction motor, which would rotate with a solid steel core. Does it rotate with the slip rings open circuit?
bi
« Last Edit: August 24, 2022, 07:07:54 PM by bistander »

Offline citfta

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1000
Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2022, 06:47:46 PM »
Okay,  here is another short video of the signals with the rotor not locked.  The yellow signal is the signal of one of the 3 phases.  The blue signal is again the signal coming from the slip rings connected to the rotor of the output alternator.  I said in the video the signals were the same frequency, but that is not correct.  They are close but if they were actually the same they would stay in step.  Looking at the video closer you can see that as the rotor is freely turning the frequency goes down on the rotor as bistander correctly suggested.


Also in the first part of the video the slip rings of the rotor are not connected to any load except the input to the scope.  If you watch closely in the video when I connect the load the rotor signal seems to get closer to the frequency of the 3 phase signal.  And of course when I lock the rotor the signals do get synced to one another.  Also I have connected a meter to the slip ring output and measured the AC signal locked and unlocked.  As bi also suggested the voltage goes up when locked as we could see in the other video by the bulb getting slightly brighter when the rotor was locked.  The unlocked voltage is 28.8 VAC and the locked voltage is 30.8 VAC.  So the output voltage goes up and the input power goes down when we lock the rotor.  Does the output voltage go up because the frequency of the system goes up or does the frequency go up because somehow the rotor being locked causes less load on the driving motor?  It appears then that if we could get our input frequency higher we might see some interesting results.  I don't think there is much more I can do with this set up, but if anyone has any ideas they want me to try just let me know.


https://rumble.com/v1hb4yn-free-running-rotor.html


Just some more to think about.


Later,
Carroll

Offline bistander

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 263
Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2022, 08:04:34 PM »
Well done citfta,
Since it will rotate on its own with the rotor coil open circuit, it is eddy currents in the steel claws producing torque, nothing from the coil. That would imply that, if the rotor was to spin at synchronous speed, no torque would be produced. And no voltage induced in the rotor coil. We can see the beginning of that trend with frequency and voltage decreasing with increasing rotor speed.

I think this is an excellent test/example to confirm or support the contention that the magnetic field actually moves rather than disappear at one point in space and reappear in a nearby point giving the allusion of movement. If that were the case, there would be changing flux linking the shaft concentric coil and induction. I'd really like to see both alternators driven at same speed (assumption is equal pole count).
Thanks for your efforts.
BTW, still no hint of iron electron spin Holcomb energy. I think you'd need radial orientation pick-up coils, to be cut by the RMF.
bi

Offline Ufopolitics

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 455
Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2022, 03:18:54 PM »
Good morning Citfta, good morning Bistander, good morning all,

I have to say that your idea to build this setup was an excellent move!!
As you may think this is it...I will tell you, it is just the beginning...

I really do not want to crowd your Thread with all my thoughts, so I will be opening a specific Topic under my Moderated Thread.

I have no idea if some of you have seen all these Alternator Conversion into a Brushless (BLDC) Motor...but ever since you uploaded your first video, I was thinking of it as a possibility...since you encounter problems when feeding your exciting field with just the proper Voltage and Amperage...since it will get stiff, and your scooter motor would not be able to spin it...

Here is the First Video...the Guy uses a typical small 500-1000 Watts ESC (Electronic Speed Controller) normally used for R/C Toys and Hobbyists (btw, I ordered one [1000W, arriving next week)

Note that almost NO WORK, no new winding, not full removal of diode bridge is even required to make original alternator to run.

ALTERNATOR CONVERSION TO BLDC MOTOR_VIDEO 1

But then, same Guy goes a bit more sophisticated, by building his own ESC...out of 3 FETS, 4 Diodes and 4 Resistors...plus a Potentiometer...and honestly, what I like better about this last one...is that it uses the common 3 wire joint to one of the potentiometer leg...while the factory build ESC does not...so, I assume it will tend to overheat more.

ALTERNATOR CONVERSION TO BLDC, NO ESC, 3 FETS_VIDEO_2

Point here, is very simple, you will just need ONE Alternator...not two, plus get rid of the Scooter Motor...

Notice that in both videos, He powers the rotor coil (magnetize it) with a small AA 1.5V Battery...if not, it will simply not turn at all.
Which demonstrates that this is NOT the same effect as seen on the typical Induction Motor with 3 Phase AC Sinewave.
And not spinning due to any Eddy currents either...

Process is simple, even a weak magnetization on Rotor, will make it to "stick" to the Rotating Field...and vualá...it runs, and runs very strong!!
I am going to be making this test as soon as next week...I will also order all components to make the 3 FETS Controller.
I will also power rotor coil with a Supercap, and a small meter to detect if there is any charge value while spinning.

But finally, I will fit a Generator Exciter Rotor inside Alternator Stator Field and make it fixed...wound it with 18 or 20 gauge...like 700 to 1000 ft. Just like Pierre Cotnoir setup...but using this simple small ESC...

I now believe this is the "secret" that Pierre was talking about...or the "Pistons missing on the Engine" when just rotating the field...

Realize the BLDC Signal (And I will measure it and see it on my new 4 channel scope) is a square, flat top and bottom wave...and whenever aligned all three of them will create almost a flat line above and below...which means field(s) would be alive at almost all times...so, no soft up-down AC curves here...

It will be a piece of cake to make this field to go and keep at 3600 RPM's...As he drives it above 7500 and more RPM's effortlessly...
However, as Bistander mentioned like two times, you will need a new type of center rotor...where coil(s) and center core, would be facing Stator Coils, radially.

Anyways, I wanted to share my findings here, since you started to play with Alternators first, as it was your original and ingenious idea, what got me into this exciting future tests.


I feel very positive about it...

Regards

Ufopolitics
« Last Edit: August 26, 2022, 06:45:20 PM by Ufopolitics »

Offline Feb2006

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 94
Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2022, 02:45:16 AM »
A video about half bridges and full bridges ESCs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urQEdGjK7Xg
09:57 Half vs Full Controller

Offline citfta

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1000
Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2022, 02:56:08 AM »
Hello everyone.  A big thanks to all for all the positive comments and so far not one single negative comment.  Wow that is a first for me.


Well I do have a few more things to share with you.  I have done some more testing using my original test setup with 2 alternators and the scooter motor.  So I'll share the results of that first and then have some more to share about the videos that UFO gave us links to.


I decided I wanted a little better data so I put some meters on my system.  I had a DVM set for AC volts on the slip ring circuit of the output alternator and a DVM set for AC volts on one of the 3 phases.  I still used the scooter motor being driven with about 18 volts DC and still had about 3 amps DC going to the slip rings of the first alternator.  When I locked the rotor I used a pair of long nosed vise grip pliers.  This allowed me to make some very fine adjustments of the position of the rotor in relation to the stator coils.  As I suspected there is a sweet spot that will give you the most output for the least input.  When adjusted for that spot and with the 120 night light as my load I got 31.2 volts coming out on the slip ring while the AC voltage on one of the 3 phases rose to 4.39 volts AC.


If I kept everything else the same and just disconnected the load so I had an open slip ring circuit my phase voltage only rose to 4.40 volts AC while my slip ring voltage rose to 32.5 volts AC.  If I shorted the output my phase voltage still stayed the same as 4.40 VAC.


If I let the rotor turn freely my phase voltage dropped to 4.04 VAC while my system when loaded with the bulb dropped to 28.2 VAC.  If I shorted out the slip ring my phase voltage dropped to 3.84 VAC and if I left the slip ring circuit open  my phase voltage rose to 4.06 VAC and my output voltage was 29.2 VAC.  So the system definitely works better with the rotor locked and adjusted for best induction from the  rotating magnetic field.


I did one more thing before dismantling that system.  I turned the slip ring current on the driving alternator up to several more amps to see what would happen.  I only ran it like that for a short time because of the heavy load on the scooter motor.  When I did that with the second alternator free to turn it took off like a regular motor and reached a pretty high speed very quickly.  I took a quick glance at the meters and the scope and there was barely any voltage being generated in the slip ring circuit.  I think this proves the induction into the slip ring circuit is coming from the moving magnetic field because when the rotor got up to close to the same speed as the moving magnetic field almost all induction stopped.  A quick glance showed less than a volt being generated as compared to 30 volts or so when locked even though the 3 phase field was much stronger.


Okay,  time for part two.  After watching the videos UFO posted links to I decided to set up the same demo as in the first video.  If you want you can watch it first and then read my comments.


https://rumble.com/v1hh4ux-driving-an-alternator-with-rc-speed-controller.html


If you watched the video you saw that the signal from the little RC ESC is actually a bunch of PWM pulses.  With the rotor sitting still no matter what speed I set the ESC to I could not get any generation in the slip ring circuit above a few millivolts.  So next I did connect a supply to the slip ring of the single alternator and that is what you see in the video.  As I said in the video I am really curious what kind of signal he is generating with his 3 mosfet circuit in the second video.  I am not sure just what is generating a signal to cause the mosfets to switch.  I haven't taken time yet to actually watch the video carefully and draw out that circuit.  I could see he is using the center connection from the Y configuration the alternator is wired for.  Both of my alternators are wired like that also.


The Y configuration is commonly used in industry.  From the center connection to any other leg you get about 120 volts.  And from any one leg to another you get about 208 volts.  So with a breaker panel being fed with 3 phase Y power it is easy to get just what you need by just making the right connections in the panel.  But I am not sure how his mosfet circuit works using the center connection. I am thinking that somehow as each phase powers off it triggers the next phase to power on.  However it works it seems to work well so I guess I need to build it and see for myself how it works.


If it in fact actually is turning each phase on and off fully without the PWM of the ESC then I think it is possible it will produce a nice high speed rotating magnetic field that could induce a good signal into a locked rotor.  I am not convinced yet that there is a need to make any changes to the rotor coil.  I think my own testing has proven the alternating claws of the rotor are perfectly capable of inducing a changing magnetic field across the coil.  But further testing is of course needed. 


I don't know how soon I can get around to building the MOSFET controller.  I am pretty sure I have all the parts but I am going to be pretty busy with other things for the next couple of weeks.  Hopefully what I have shown will encourage some of you to see what you can do with something like an alternator.  I will be looking in from time to time.  Looking forward to seeing what UFO can do with his project.


Take care guys and gals too if there are any,
Carroll

Offline Feb2006

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 94
Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2022, 03:55:26 AM »
An ESC is sensing the back emf to get the timing right ,that's what probably makes it not working.
You need an ESC that does not sense the rotor position and tries to adjust.
An open source one that you can program yourself.

Offline citfta

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1000
Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2022, 04:12:03 AM »
I don't understand your comment.  Makes what not working?  The ESC I used drove the alternator just fine.




Edit: Did you watch the video?

Offline Feb2006

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 94
Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2022, 04:16:00 AM »
"With the rotor sitting still no matter what speed I set the ESC to I could not get any generation in the slip ring circuit above a few millivolts. "
In motor mod is working not in generator mod.
In motor mod you get back emf and right rotor timing.
An ESC is made for driving motors.


Offline citfta

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1000
Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2022, 04:42:31 AM »
I think you need to watch all the videos from the beginning so you will understand what we are experimenting with.  We are doing basic research on the idea of making a virtual moving magnetic field and the effect it might have on generating power.  The ESC I used uses PWM to generate a sort of sine wave.  Because the PWM pulses are so short they don't have time to generate a field into the slip ring coil because the impedance of the slip ring coil is too high for that short of a pulse.  An ESC such as the one in the second video UFO linked to probably has a simple on and off pulse without the PWM.  If that is the case then it should be able to generate a moving magnetic field like we are looking for.


I hope this helps you understand what we are doing.
Carroll