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Author Topic: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others  (Read 26053 times)

bistander

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #135 on: January 12, 2023, 05:49:19 PM »
Hi Ufo,
I fail to follow reasoning (and functionality) of an 8 pole innermost member to a 6 pole member then to the 12 pole outer. Can you overlay the flux paths on the diagram, or a section of it?
bi

Ufopolitics

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #136 on: January 12, 2023, 05:59:19 PM »
Hi Ufo,
I fail to follow reasoning (and functionality) of an 8 pole innermost member to a 6 pole member then to the 12 pole outer. Can you overlay the flux paths on the diagram, or a section of it?
bi

Thanks Bistander,

Yes, you are right, and I originally had a six pole innermost magnet rotor (I still have it on a hidden CAD Layer)

However, the innermost PM Rotor would be the last thing I will build, and I was making it fit with the Neo's that I had in stock...which are 55X13X5 mm rectangles...and about same length as cores setup would be.

The ideal setup would should be a six magnets of the same size as each pole (of the two teeth circuit)...I know.

Nevertheless, the relation between the inner 6 poles static core with the 12 poles outer core, you do see the flux path there?

Thanks again

Ufopolitics

bistander

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #137 on: January 13, 2023, 02:35:40 AM »
Hi Ufo,
So I was looking around on the web for existing 6-pole and 12-pole FEMM graphics. This paper on BLDC analysis using computer methods is very interesting. I will attach two good looking flux plots. These represent conventional magnetic circuits in 3 phase stators, both a 6-pole and a 12-pole. Look at the article for further description of the graphics. The authors also discuss the winding patterns. Just for kicks, I'll attach B H curves found in the article. Check out how the authors use magnetic energy.
Hope this helps.
bi

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Explicative-for-computing-the-magnetic-energy-in-a-soft-magnetic-materials-eg_fig10_3172035

Ufopolitics

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #138 on: January 13, 2023, 03:29:04 PM »
Hi Ufo,
So I was looking around on the web for existing 6-pole and 12-pole FEMM graphics. This paper on BLDC analysis using computer methods is very interesting. I will attach two good looking flux plots. These represent conventional magnetic circuits in 3 phase stators, both a 6-pole and a 12-pole. Look at the article for further description of the graphics. The authors also discuss the winding patterns. Just for kicks, I'll attach B H curves found in the article. Check out how the authors use magnetic energy.
Hope this helps.
bi

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Explicative-for-computing-the-magnetic-energy-in-a-soft-magnetic-materials-eg_fig10_3172035

Thanks Bistander,

Yes very useful document, and of course 1:1 ratio of exciter and output would be the ideal setup, however, I see it works fine with a 12:6 ratio
Also, it should be considered the three phase poles sequence displacement spacing, when running.

Next posts I will show here simple diagrams, for easier understanding about what I am trying to achieve...

Ufopolitics
« Last Edit: January 13, 2023, 06:49:48 PM by Ufopolitics »

Ufopolitics

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #139 on: January 13, 2023, 04:19:43 PM »

BLOCK DIAG FROM PREVIOUS SETUP

Hello,

Ok, here is a pretty simple Round Block Diagram that shows the "Gain Mechanism" based on a Trigger to Exciter Fields, kind of similar to the way an Exciting System of a typical Generator normally works...except we are not requiring a huge Mechanical input force to achieve our desired output.

So, We need to have a Center Rotary PM Innermost Rotor, based on a belt of magnets, set at NSNSNS.
Then we have a low input Triggering set (Yellow Ring on Graph) of finer gauge coils, wound as an Alternator, connected to a 3 phase DC Exciting Driver.
Third Component (Orange on Graph) are the Exciting Coils, wound on a heavier, higher wire gauge with lesser turns than Trigger, this is also wound based on the 3 phase Alternator winding type, and is connected in a closed circuit to three AC Running Caps of lower capacity (not intended to be fully charged all the time, but in fast charge-discharge "flashes").
And Outer end component (Green Ring on Graph) are the Output Coils, also wound in the 3 phase config. but with heavier wire gauge than Exciter.

So, here is how it "should" work out:

We start the trigger coils (yellow) by turning on the 3 PH Driver, reach desired speed that is verified at magnet rotor shaft.
The Magnets will rotate in sync with Trigger Rotation of the Magnetic Field, in order to have a more solid and steady Field when they are completely synchronized.

Magnet rotation plus Trigger Field together, will amplify magnetic forces and start inducing the Exciter Coils (Orange), and here we will be able to measure power reached at each AC Cap terminals.

I expect to get a much higher operating voltage (like 180-150V) at the Exciter Coils and a running amperage of about 2.0 to 3.0 Amps, once the operational speed of the Magnetic Field has reached the right Frequency of around 60 Hz per phase.

Resuming in short code:

(TRIGGER+MAGNET ROTOR)>EXCITER COILS>OUTPUT COILS

I will love to have a way to calculate all this data precisely, in order to have the right number of turns and gauge for each component, however, the basic main principle is disclosed here, the common sense indicates a plus-minus range of numbers to be used, like finer gauge and more turns on Trigger Coils, which will consume a lower input and not stress the driver system.
The Magnets are going to be Neo's of grade 35 to 52, whichever ones are available for a size that would fit in.
The Exciter Coils need to be wound with coarser gauge and as many turns as I could fit within the core.
And of course, the Output Coils would be wound with a much thicker gauge than Exciter, and more turns, as it has the outer ring core with more room to wind it, as it is based on 12 AC poles.

If I can reach the expected Voltage/Amps at Exciter Field, rest assured, We will reach a very high gain over our already low Input.

Regards

Ufopolitics


Edit 1: The Trigger and Exciter Coils are both mounted on the same ring steel core, however, this is based on fragmented elements which are isolated from each others with a non magnetic material (fiberglass in my case, for easier building of magnet rotor caps and bearings, which would be of aluminum (CAPS))
I believe this type of isolated steel elements will transfer the Field Rotation faster, more precisely and stronger than a full mass of steel core, which in my opinion would turn off the power of the Rotating Field, considerably.

Ufopolitics

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #140 on: January 13, 2023, 05:17:53 PM »
An even simpler Block Diagram...

And the main point here, "The Novel Component" is the Main Exciter Circuit, which is CLOSED in a loop with 3 AC Running Caps.
This Exciter Circuit serves as a "Floating Buffer" plus an Amplifier of the Induced Field from the Trigger Circuit (including the PM Rotor), between our Low Input Circuit versus the GAIN it will reach by itself in a closed loop when Magnetic Field RPM's at Trigger reach the operational speed/frequency.

This way WE ARE NOT DIRECTLY INTERACTING with our raw Input Circuit to Induce STRAIGHT FORWARD, NAKED, the Output Circuit.

And it is just based on the way every Generator works out there...I did not "invented" absolutely anything "out of the blue"...it is just applying the basic concept of the way an Exciting Circuit works in any Generator.

And of course it could be implemented, improved, to reach top performance.

This, I believe, is what we all need to achieve OU...in excess, depending on the EFFICIENCY of our Exciter Circuit PERFORMANCE when loaded.

Because, of course, our loads now, will not FALL DIRECTLY on our Input Circuit, but on the Middle Exciter Circuit, which is absolutely NOT CONNECTED, but INDEPENDENT from our Input Power Units...Mechanically speaking...it is like a CLUTCH DRIVER, which absorbs plus cushions all the Reverse Forces and driving required speeds, keeping a "smoothly running machine".

Regards

Ufopolitics

bistander

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #141 on: January 13, 2023, 05:48:08 PM »
Hi Ufo,
I do not see "trigger coils".

And where does exciter coil circuit get current?
bi

Ufopolitics

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #142 on: January 13, 2023, 06:06:28 PM »
Hi Ufo,
I do not see "trigger coils".

The Trigger Coils are the smaller (two tooth only) coils on the main winding patterns graph, with the windings in green/blue/red.
And the Exciter Coils are the three (3) tooth coils right above the trigger.

But this is just the way I have it set on this particular design...(it could change) as trigger coils could go on a separate core, and then set the Exciter Coils at the following level, right next to output coils. So it would be a 3 rings level setup plus the magnetic rotor.

And where does exciter coil circuit get current?
bi

The same exact way the Exciting Coils get current in any Generator Stator, which are ONLY directly connected to the running AC cap(s) in a Brushless "State of the Art" Generator...right?

Cheers

Ufopolitics

Ufopolitics

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #143 on: January 13, 2023, 06:44:51 PM »
ABOUT AN EASIER WAY TO BUILD IT...

I have also considered to wind Trigger and Exciter together with a Bifilar wire, having a less gauge for trigger than Exciter, and using only Two tooth for both, as I've noticed there is a slight Offset of poles width 3 tooth related to outer coils width...


They are both wound at the same directions, so, it could be done. Hence, they would not cancel each others, but add up on Induced strength from magnets plus driver signal.


Ufopolitics

bistander

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #144 on: January 13, 2023, 07:14:21 PM »
The Trigger Coils are the smaller (two tooth only) coils on the main winding patterns graph, with the windings in green/blue/red.
And the Exciter Coils are the three (3) tooth coils right above the trigger.

But this is just the way I have it set on this particular design...(it could change) as trigger coils could go on a separate core, and then set the Exciter Coils at the following level, right next to output coils. So it would be a 3 rings level setup plus the magnetic rotor.

The same exact way the Exciting Coils get current in any Generator Stator, which are ONLY directly connected to the running AC cap(s) in a Brushless "State of the Art" Generator...right?

Cheers

Ufopolitics

I didn't realize that you had both coil sets on the same member. Thanks

But I am not familiar with AC capacitor usage on synchronous generators. This diagram is what I thought was conventional brushless synchronous generator technology:
From: https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/13/11/2696
Perhaps you could post a circuit or block diagram and reference source for the AC caps of which speak.
Thanks,
bi

Ufopolitics

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #145 on: January 13, 2023, 08:16:09 PM »

But I am not familiar with AC capacitor usage on synchronous generators. This diagram is what I thought was conventional brushless synchronous generator technology:
From: https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/13/11/2696
Perhaps you could post a circuit or block diagram and reference source for the AC caps of which speak.
Thanks,
bi

Yes Bistander,

The Caps usage applies usually to Single Phase Synchronous Generators Exciter Systems.
It is basically an LC Circuit that starts induction on coil by the two small magnets (N-S) in the rotor core...then starts filling up the caps.
The caps once full by faster rotation, energize the coils to then start a reverse process to energize the rotor coils by Induction.
Rotor Coils are shorted by two Diodes to get DC on them and polarize the field in two steady poles.

However, if it works on a Single Phase, it should work for 3 independent phases as well. (just like using three single phase generators exciters with three Caps for each circuit).
But, like you have shown on diagram, the typical 3 phase gen above10 Kw uses Dual Exciter Systems, one with PMG plus a secondary exciter, both in series to add more power to main rotor.

Quote
The rotor is usually of salient-pole construction as described previously, but in this case the rotor winding is shorted through a diode. On starting, the residual flux in the rotor body induces a small voltage in the stator excitation winding and a current flows through the capacitor.

This current produces two waves of magnetic flux around the air gap of the generator. One wave travels in the same direction as the rotor, to create the armature reaction.

The second wave travels in a direction opposite to the rotor, and induces a voltage in the rotor windings at twice the output frequency. The current circulated in the rotor windings by this induced voltage is rectified by the diode to produce a dc current.

This dc current increases the magnetic flux in the machine, which in turn drives more current through the stator excitation winding, which in turn produces more rotor current. This self-excitation process continues until the flux reaches a point at which the magnetic circuit is saturated, and a stable voltage results.

https://electricalengineeringdesigns.blogspot.com/2012/07/capacitor-excitation-system-of.html

Ufopolitics

hartiberlin

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Re: Maybe possible idea for duplicating effect of Holcomb and others
« Reply #146 on: June 30, 2023, 04:27:00 PM »
Here is another interesting video from 2 scientists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uspz7c3xHek
Regards, Stefan.