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Author Topic: Need help with gravity/buoyancy design  (Read 2799 times)

Offline Novus

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Re: Need help with gravity/buoyancy design
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2022, 09:30:09 PM »
Hi Tarsier,

Thanks in advance for looking at this design again.

To summarize;
Scenario 2 - mass 'M' is submerged in container 'A' while keeping the fluid at the same level. Each interval of the moving pulley is at equilibrium.
Scenario 3 - mass 'V' is submerged in container 'B'. As a result mass 'M' floats together with the rising fluid to the top position in container 'A'. Each interval is at equilibrium. The pulley is kept fixed/locked i.e containers 'A' and 'B' can not move.
Scenario 4 - Mass 'M' is pulled against gravity at the top while the fluid remains at the same level. Each interval of the moving pulley is at equilibrium.
Scenario 5 - mass 'V' moves upwards in container 'B'. Mass 'M' remains in the upper position thus gaining potential gravitational energy. Each interval is at equilibrium. The pulley is kept fixed/locked i.e containers 'A' and 'B' can not move.

Since each (small) interval is expected to be at equilibrium the potential gravitational energy of mass 'M' should be sufficient to overcome inertia en friction to complete the cycle.

I'll try to answer any questions you may have as clearly as possible.

Offline Novus

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Re: Need help with gravity/buoyancy design
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2022, 10:14:34 PM »
Attached Excel workbook containing all scenarios

Offline Tarsier_79

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Re: Need help with gravity/buoyancy design
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2022, 10:33:59 AM »
Novus, I am still not sure exactly what you are trying to achieve.

I have been looking at scenario 5

On an initial glance, Your calculations look correct.

The calculation you do not have is the apparent weight of the V weight out of the water. 24, 144, 312 consecutively. This is where you have a method to counterbalance the V weight?

So you move the counterbalanced V weight, achieving  a different weight left and right in the containers?

The M weight is when we unlock the containers to move them?

Offline Novus

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Re: Need help with gravity/buoyancy design
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2022, 11:22:32 AM »
Quote
The calculation you do not have is the apparent weight of the V weight out of the water. 24, 144, 312 consecutively. This is where you have a method to counterbalance the V weight?

That is correct, the portion of V out of the water should be regarded as weightless at each interval.

Quote
So you move the counterbalanced V weight, achieving  a different weight left and right in the containers?

The counterbalanced weight V is moving up and downwards in order for the fluid level in container A to move up and downwards. The weight in containers A and B  will change as a consequence of the submerged (floating) part of V.

Quote
The M weight is when we unlock the containers to move them?

Not really sure what you mean. Mass M is submerged at the lower position in container A as per scenario2 (free of charge, without changing the fluid level), as a next step M floats upwards with the rising fluid level as per scenario3, followed by being extracted against gravity out of the fluid in scenario4 (free of charge, without changing the fluid level), and finally stays at the top position in scenario5 where the fluid level drops and as a result gaining (free) potential gravitational energy.

Offline Tarsier_79

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Re: Need help with gravity/buoyancy design
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2022, 01:04:50 PM »
OK, Im beginning to understand I think.

1. Shows you dropping mass M into the liquid, while maintaining balance with a counterweight, and maintaining fluid level.

2. Is the same, but with added V weight.

3. The containers are locked, and the V weight is lowered, the M weight is raised without effort.

4. Extracting the M weight from the fluid.

5. Raising the V weight, dropping the fluid level below the M weight.

6. Extracting energy from the M weight.

OK. This is not a 5 minute thing to examine. It is quite a complicated setup. Right now I am a little time poor. I am going to need some time to get my head around the entire setup, and confirm everything.

To be continued...



Offline Novus

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Re: Need help with gravity/buoyancy design
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2022, 03:43:16 PM »
I couldn't have explained it any better.

The critical part is that the fluid levels remain the same at the bottom and top positions therefore not impacting V.
At the same time the total volume of fluid is the same at each interval and the weight difference changes from + 60 and -/- 60 at the bottom position to -/- 60 and + 60 at the top allowing for the counter balances on the pulley to keep everything at equilibrium.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2022, 06:23:28 PM by Novus »

Offline Tarsier_79

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Re: Need help with gravity/buoyancy design
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2022, 08:29:41 PM »
OK, so at least I am on the right track. I was confused at the start mainly because they are called scenario, which I took as meaning 6 different mechanisms.

Offline Novus

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Re: Need help with gravity/buoyancy design
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2022, 09:54:52 PM »
Probably since english is not my first language.

Hopefully you or someone else can point out the error in the design so we can put this to rest.

Offline Tarsier_79

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Re: Need help with gravity/buoyancy design
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2022, 10:27:22 AM »
Hi Novus

I did have a little time to look at your design today.

One thing I did notice is that in scenario 3 and 5, your V weight is not counterbalanced as it enters the liquid. Your counterbalance relies on an equal rise in fluid compared to the relative drop in the V weight. I haven't had time to calculate how much of an effect this will have.

Offline Novus

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Re: Need help with gravity/buoyancy design
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2022, 12:53:05 PM »
Hi Tarsier,
Thanks for looking into this.

Quote
One thing I did notice is that in scenario 3 and 5, your V weight is not counterbalanced as it enters the liquid.

As I mentioned before, I didn't as yet share the idea on the counterbalance to keep V weightless.

Quote
Your counterbalance relies on an equal rise in fluid compared to the relative drop in the V weight.

The counterbalance doesn't rely on an equal rise in fluid compared to the relative drop in the V weight.

Quote
I haven't had time to calculate how much of an effect this will have.

I believe you will find that when using the method to counterbalance V as per the 'Example' given earlier (with the 2nd pulley at twice the distance from the pivot point) you will find a loss equal to the gain in potential gravitational energy of mass M.


Offline Tarsier_79

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Re: Need help with gravity/buoyancy design
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2022, 08:22:07 PM »
Hi Novus

Quote
As I mentioned before, I didn't as yet share the idea on the counterbalance to keep V weightless.
Quote
I believe you will find that when using the method to counterbalance V as per the 'Example' given earlier (with the 2nd pulley at twice the distance from the pivot point) you will find a loss equal to the gain in potential gravitational energy of mass M.

So you have an additional counterbalance for the V weight?


Offline Tarsier_79

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Re: Need help with gravity/buoyancy design
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2022, 07:52:59 AM »
I have been thinking about the V counterweight. I believe there is a method to counterbalance it with a variable proportional weight.

In #3, the water level raises 12, then 12. The V weight is dropped 8, then 16.
In #5, the water level drops 12, then 12. The V weight is lifted 8 then 16.

The leverage occurs in reverse on the lift and drop. At least the total lift and total drop heights are the same.

A pure mechanical variable solution will be difficult, but probably possible. A simpler (at least for me) method is to have two counterbalance that can occur at different times. We can engage each one when required with a microcontroller. I believe your system already requires one to swap between "scenarios".

Offline Novus

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Re: Need help with gravity/buoyancy design
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2022, 10:22:23 AM »
Hi Tarsier,

As it turns out my idea for a counterbalance to keep V weightless at each interval doesn't work.
I'll have a look at you proposal but, since we already agreed that a buoyancy/gravity perpetuum mobile does not and can not exist, I somehow doubt this will work.
I guess we agree that, if only we can find a counterbalance for the part of V at each interval which is not submerged, the system should work.


Offline Tarsier_79

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Re: Need help with gravity/buoyancy design
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2022, 11:42:18 AM »
Novus, the solution you proposed initially is unique and interesting. Although I believe a gravity solution is not possible, I try to keep an open mind to an extent, and won't mind finding out if I am wrong.

I believe your method of counterbalance can work in proportion. Both proportions separately.

Offline Novus

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Re: Need help with gravity/buoyancy design
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2022, 04:09:20 PM »
Quote
I believe your method of counterbalance can work in proportion. Both proportions separately.

I'm working on a solution which looks promising as per your suggestion. If it works I'll be forwarding the details later today/tomorrow.