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Author Topic: Water Injected Engine?  (Read 1230 times)

Offline TommeyReed

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Water Injected Engine?
« on: July 06, 2022, 02:34:30 AM »
Hello All,

I have been looking into a basic engine design with 50:1 compression ratio for a experimental water injected engine.

The temperature could reach 2000+deg and injected water to created superheated steam with a expansions 1600 times the volume. and pressure over 2000 psi.

If 400c can create 100bar(1450.38psi) of steam wouldn't it be much higher if it is 1000c?

This is just a theory at this time, getting the compression would be much easier with the help of hydraulics.



Tom






Offline aussiebattler

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Re: Water Injected Engine?
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2022, 09:52:51 AM »
Sounds a bit dangerous Tommey

Offline Paul-R

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Re: Water Injected Engine?
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2022, 10:42:51 AM »
What is the source of the heat required?

Offline kolbacict

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Re: Water Injected Engine?
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2022, 10:46:25 AM »
And where did you lose the heat of vaporization?
It's very big for  water.

p.s. To write correctly "It's very big for  water" or "It's very big for the water" ? :-[

Offline Paul-R

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Re: Water Injected Engine?
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2022, 12:06:28 PM »
We don't have  much to go on. An estimated thermodynamic P/V diagram would be useful.

Offline ramset

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Re: Water Injected Engine?
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2022, 01:15:21 PM »
Perhaps Sam could explain a bit


Here a snip from the Tom Bearden tribute
Posted here a while back in user onepower’s
Tribute topic at Bearden’s passing!


Lithium nitrate at 20ppm in water ..injected at 500 psi


Tom (R)
Thanks!!


I do hope your efforts bring the open source community together to crack these mysteries!!
We need to work together…and help each other now more than ever !


Respectfully
Chet K
Ps
I hope those attachments below are proper ??
One should be snip from Bearden tribute
And second should be procedure for mixing lithium nitrate
Solution to 20ppm
( which I received from an open source FE researcher/scientist)


Unfortunately I am unable to open links here at this forum from my phone !
(to check if it’s what i wanted to post )

Offline TommeyReed

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Re: Water Injected Engine?
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2022, 02:10:03 AM »
Hi All,

Many unknowns in this theory, so I came up with a Hydraulic compression tester up to 100:1 ratio.

This has a adjustable check valve in case pressure goes beyond 100 bar.

This will be able to test all kinds of fluids.

I forgot to add a temperature sensor.....

Tom

Offline TommeyReed

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Re: Water Injected Engine?
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2022, 02:04:17 PM »
Hello all,

To answer the question of heating water to steam.

One BTU will raise 1 pound of water 1 degree, 231cu/in / 8.33= 27.73cu/in or 15.366 ounces of water.

If incoming air temperature is 60deg and a compression of 50:1 the temperature would be about 60 x 50= 3000 deg.

3000deg /3.41 =879.77 watts of power.

50:1
14.7 x 50 =735psi
 The real question is what pressure is generated at that temperatures?
If the water is already at 200deg before being injected in to the engine, less energy is need to create a phase change from water to steam.

I do believe this hydraulic compression tester with psi and temperature reading would give some great data for any future build.

Tom

Offline ramset

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Re: Water Injected Engine?
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2022, 03:56:40 PM »
Yes a static test bed is truly the best way forward!


One thing we were told years back ( in this open source public forum ) on lithium and water
It is claimed that it halves the temperature (2000 C/ 3200F )
For molecular disassociation

Testing to 1000c would make the task so much easier
and you are going even higher in your test apparatus !

The previously mentioned (above) Sam Leach claim of 20ppm lithium nitrate per volume in water
at 500 PSI !
Will be so easy to test on your test bed !( compared to trying to manifest necessary
Conditions in an engine !


Better put a blast shield too …. I hope you will need it !:)


So many things can be tested for their phase change and combustion characteristics ( yes I know “you” know this already)


With gratitude
Chet K







Offline citfta

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Re: Water Injected Engine?
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2022, 04:04:46 PM »
Another great idea to pursue Tom.  We already know that water injection in a normal ICE can improve performance and lower  emissions.  So your idea just takes that further.


Can you clone yourself so that one of you can stay in Florida and make money while the other one tests your ideas?


Carroll

Offline onepower

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Re: Water Injected Engine?
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2022, 05:55:09 PM »
The first problem with an ICE is that it's not a fuel/combustion engine it's a expansion-pressure-force engine. It doesn't matter how we generate an expansion to produce the pressure which acts on the piston causing a force only that we do.

The next problem is that like most of our devices the ICE is always acting against itself. For example, we combust a fuel to create heat to produce an expansion-pressure-force. However compression heats/expansion cools so when the hot gasses in the cylinder expand they also start to cool and contract. In some low pressure long stroke steam engines the expanding steam starts to condense into water in the cylinder and it loses pressure. Some ingenious inventors recognized this fact and invented an expansion/contraction engine. Whereby the expansion did work, the medium was then allowed to condense and the contraction also did work.

So in fact there are two cycles however in most of our engines the expansion is internal and the contraction is external and does no work. Therefore at best we can only utilize less than half the energy actually present. Another brilliant inventor named Viktor Schauberger developed a way to control expansion/contraction outside the context of heat. Whereby heating can produce contraction and cooling expansion opposite to what we do. As Viktor implied, always do the opposite of what others are thinking and doing and you will be on the right track...

Regards
AC






Offline TommeyReed

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Re: Water Injected Engine?
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2022, 02:15:42 AM »
Hello Onepower,

Internal combustion engines are heat engine from a phase change from liquid to heat. The fact heat is generated to increase combustion pressure beyond the compression stoke is no different then using a phase change of water to steam. Both have the effect of increasing pressure in the combustion chamber.

Like all types of phase changes, there will always be a lost of heat that will effect piston pressure to do mechanical work. But steam will expand unless it drops below 212 deg. The problem with steam engine is there was no compression stroke to recover the heat loss.

This hydraulic compression tester is to test all types of liquids, like water. But what about marine algae also?

I hope to be back home in a month, I'm looking forward in testing a theory.

Tom


Offline ramset

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Re: Water Injected Engine?
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2022, 12:26:23 PM »
Efficiency
Clem engine… was that 350 hp ?
And then there is Papp
Basically magic engines that redefine efficient!!
Exploring phase change …and where it can lead us !?


Sorry Tom ….but I’m also on the road (working)
and I really feel your gonna find it
That is to say ,the phase change gain mechanism!

This test bed is the key !!

Exciting stuff indeed
With gratitude
Chet