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Author Topic: Non-Moving Magnet and Coil Generator  (Read 1325 times)

Offline floodrod

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Non-Moving Magnet and Coil Generator
« on: May 29, 2022, 04:02:41 PM »
I am testing out a new idea in hopes of bypassing Lenz.  The main concept is to move the magnetic field around in the coil without moving the magnets or the coils, thus the back EMF can not hinder the motion of the magnets.

6 big Neo's will be aligned with 6 iron core coils. All magnets and coils will be static (non-moving).  Between the coils and magnets will be a spinning rotor that has 12 laminated iron strips that will pass between the magnets and coils.  The laminated iron strips will deflect the magnetic field as they pass between the magnets and coils, thus generating AC current. I plan to keep the magnets alternating in hopes of preventing permanent magnetization of the iron strips.

The Hopes:

I hope Lenz becomes a non-starter because the magnets nor the coils are in motion. 
I hope Eddy Currents will be minimal because the iron is laminated strips from a transformer
I hope it will be able to generate some usable output.

The Possible Cons:

The gap between the magnet and the coil will be less than optimal because I have to pass hunks of iron between them.
Eddy Currents MAY still be a hinderance
Power production will probably be less than optimal
I have no idea about possible saturation or it's effects
Many other unknowns.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Non-Moving Magnet and Coil Generator
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2022, 05:37:13 AM »
Looking good. Using a flywheel will help smooth out that cogging you will see. Do you plan to hook the coils in series to boost the voltage? Of course if cogging ends up being a real problem, increasing the rotor poles by 1 will offset everything just like the Muller dynamo concept. Just thinking out loud. Looks good so far.

Offline tonygiang

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Re: Non-Moving Magnet and Coil Generator
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2022, 07:10:31 AM »
Hi floodrod!
For defeat Lenz , in rotation devices : components of magnetic flux receive and generate must no movie ! motion is flux path only or motion virtual !
Sorry for my English !

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Non-Moving Magnet and Coil Generator
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2022, 08:54:58 AM »
It looks to me that what he is attempting is to let the stationary magnet send the flux through the stationary coils naturally as the arms move out of the way and it jumps back to the core. The rotor arms just simply redirect the flux away from the coils while they are between them. Then when they move away, the flux jumps back to the coils making AC. So in theory, if things worked as hoped, at the point that Lenz appears, the flux no longer is interacting with the rotor. I believe that is the theory anyway.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Non-Moving Magnet and Coil Generator
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2022, 09:01:27 AM »
A possible problem you may run into is the gap between your rotor arms. The gap seems kind of small for the width of the magnets it looks like you are using. If that is the case, the flux will possibly jump right from one arm to the next without jumping much if any into the coil core. If you don't get much voltage at all, you may need to remove every other arm to give more gap for the flux to jump to the core. Only testing will tell.

Offline skybiker63

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Re: Non-Moving Magnet and Coil Generator
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2022, 10:50:40 AM »
Hi this great idea I allready tested, even other have tested it, I am sure it will work. But all the tests failed by wrong shielding material or metal. All kind of metal, even MUmetal was atracked by the magnets by moving it a long the magnets (you can get MUmetal free of charge out of your computer harddisc driver. We need a material which really aborbs or refects.
Another possibility is to switch the magentic field on and off by a oposite acting magnet. Finally we only need to find a way to switch a magnet on and off. :o

Offline Paul-R

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Re: Non-Moving Magnet and Coil Generator
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2022, 11:43:07 AM »
A clarification might be that when the ferrous rotor approaches as magnet,  it would become momentarily a magnet and will behave as such from a Lenz point of view.

Offline kolbacict

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Re: Non-Moving Magnet and Coil Generator
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2022, 12:55:56 PM »
As you know, in such an electric motor we can rotate the rotor with three electromagnets on the shaft inside without the using of forces.
If the terminals of this motor are open. Although the iron rotor moves past the permanent magnet of the stator. Because the forces for all three teeth are mutually compensated. So you can spin your middle iron disc without resistance. So you can spin your middle iron disc without resistance.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Non-Moving Magnet and Coil Generator
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2022, 04:05:15 PM »
Thanks everyone for the great comments so far.

I have the magnets and metal strip disk mounted, and am now working on designing a coil mount.  What I notice so far is that the metal strip disk spins rather freely over the magnets.  There is a small degree of minor cogging, but the weight of the disk (from all the metal) acts as a flywheel and the cogging is barely noticed.  Eddy currents seem to be not of concern with the laminated iron.

Kolbacict- you are correct- the magnetic influence is the spinning disk alone is not much of a problem. It spins quite freely.

Paul's comment on the metal bars becoming magnets is certainly a possible negative..  I can already see when an iron strip is over a magnet, the metal strip is definitely magnetized. A bolt wants to attract to it. There are too many possible variables and fine details I can not measure or predict.  But it is quite possible Lenz will act against the spinning metal strip disk.  From initial observations, it seems a hanging bolt wants to attract to the center of the magnet regardless where the metal strip is.  I am assuming the flux is weaker over the iron than in the surrounding air so I am not sure how that old crochety man named "Lenz" will react.

Captain-  The spacing of the arms may be very important as you suggest. Currently, when 1 arm is almost past the magnet- the next is already in. There is a point in the current design when 2 different arms are at each edge of the magnet. Power production is 1 aspect, but lenz drag is another.  I really have no idea or prediction on how and when the interactions will take place. It will be difficult removing iron though..  These iron slabs could cripple a person if they come loose, so I epoxied them with JB Weld for safety.  Removing them is probably off the table..  If I do experiment with that- I would have to replace the disk totally.

Mounting the coils is becoming a project in itself.  I don't want to have wood or material between the coils and the metal strips, so I need to attach mounting legs on each coil design this so I can dial in the gap.  It's going to be a little sloppy for this test build- but I can get the alignment decent I am sure.

Hopefullu later today I will have more info


Offline floodrod

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Re: Non-Moving Magnet and Coil Generator
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2022, 08:19:53 PM »
I got the first video up and hand spinning..  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29nZY3b2eko&t=38s

It's producing something..  Small but something..  Too early to test drag with any degree of accuracy. 

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Non-Moving Magnet and Coil Generator
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2022, 11:12:58 PM »
Are they in series already? There are a few really good ways to boost the voltage anyway, so I wouldn't be to concerned about that yet if you are seeing some reasonable current. It's enough voltage to work with. Even a simple voltage multiplier capacitor circuit could easily do it. I've also seen the output going right into a step up transformer before with no electronics at all. Total watts of course is important as you know. But I would say the first test is looking great.


One thing you could keep in mind also if you end up wondering about the arm spacing. The further out to edge the wider the gap. That field will jump a good distance. You could always move the magnets outward another inch or so just sticking out beyond the arms. They will pull that flux in anyway if you don't go to far beyond. If possible though I would move the coils as well.  This is of course only something to consider if you have to make changes already.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Non-Moving Magnet and Coil Generator
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2022, 03:54:20 AM »
Are they in series already? There are a few really good ways to boost the voltage anyway, so I wouldn't be to concerned about that yet if you are seeing some reasonable current. It's enough voltage to work with. Even a simple voltage multiplier capacitor circuit could easily do it. I've also seen the output going right into a step up transformer before with no electronics at all. Total watts of course is important as you know. But I would say the first test is looking great.


One thing you could keep in mind also if you end up wondering about the arm spacing. The further out to edge the wider the gap. That field will jump a good distance. You could always move the magnets outward another inch or so just sticking out beyond the arms. They will pull that flux in anyway if you don't go to far beyond. If possible though I would move the coils as well.  This is of course only something to consider if you have to make changes already.

Thanks Cap..  Hooked up the motor, and as you already know-  no current and very little voltage.  And yes they are in series.  There are probably better configurations to move more flux, but I want to give it some thought before / if  I commit to a rebuild.


Offline tonygiang

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Re: Non-Moving Magnet and Coil Generator
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2022, 08:40:07 AM »
Hi all !
Ah! I got it , but amplifying output?

Offline citfta

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Re: Non-Moving Magnet and Coil Generator
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2022, 12:41:13 PM »
Floodrod, I have experimented with a similar setup.  Your metal plates are too thick and too narrow.  They need to be wide enough to completely cover the coil and only about 1/8th of an inch thick.  And the gap between the plates and magnet and between plate and coil needs to be much closer.  Between coil and plate needs to be about the thickness of a piece of cardstock.  And the gap between the plate and the magnet needs to be about 3 times that depending on the strength of the magnet.  If you make those changes you will be surprised at what you get.


Good luck and keep trying and learning.


Carroll


PS: You are correct in keeping the magnets of alternating polarity to keep the plates from becoming magnetized.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Non-Moving Magnet and Coil Generator
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2022, 02:39:06 PM »
Floodrod, I have experimented with a similar setup.  Your metal plates are too thick and too narrow.  They need to be wide enough to completely cover the coil and only about 1/8th of an inch thick.  And the gap between the plates and magnet and between plate and coil needs to be much closer.  Between coil and plate needs to be about the thickness of a piece of cardstock.  And the gap between the plate and the magnet needs to be about 3 times that depending on the strength of the magnet.  If you make those changes you will be surprised at what you get.


Good luck and keep trying and learning.


Carroll


PS: You are correct in keeping the magnets of alternating polarity to keep the plates from becoming magnetized.

Thank You..  If I run across some good material that would work as a disk, I may revisit this.