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Author Topic: How HHO works  (Read 1429 times)

Offline db4uf

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How HHO works
« on: May 11, 2022, 04:15:43 AM »
I have read a lot about the properties of HHO over the years.  I would like to know how you think HHO works.  I find this a very fascinating topic, and with all the expertise on this site I am sure to learn a great deal!

Dave,

Offline db4uf

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Re: How HHO works
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2022, 02:35:08 PM »
HHO properties that I have read of:
1. Gas will implode if it is only HHO.
2. Gas will explode if combined with air.
3. Flame will exhibit different behavior depending on what it is applied to.
4. Flame will burn a hole in a wood board without burning the surrounding material.
5. You can fuse dissimilar materials together ie glass to steel.
6. you can weld with this flame.
7. Flame can cut through a brick or steel.
8. You can cut a steel bar while holding it with a bare hand six inches away from the cut.
9. it will cut a hole in a stainless steel pot full of water.

This is what I remember reading about.  If you know of others please post them.

Dave,

Offline db4uf

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Re: How HHO works
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2022, 02:34:57 PM »
When HHO is ignited in its pure form.  It produces no energy leading me to believe it must only contain single hydrogen and oxygen atoms.  If it was H2 and or O2 those molecules would have to expand or explode before it could form H2O, basically rocket fuel.  So when atmospheric air is added to the HHO and ignited, we get an explosion.  This would indicate that the atmospheric air would then be the fuel for this explosion!  We have E=MC^2 and the explosive energy E is equal to some of the mass M (atmospheric air) that was added to the HHO.  So this appears to be a conversion of mass to energy.  What do you think?

Dave,

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: How HHO works
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2022, 03:31:15 PM »
Be extremely careful if you intend to experiment on your own.
This gas is volatile and dangerous, especially under pressure
or in sealed containers.


H2 and O2 in stoichiometric proportions will burn freely in or out of air,
 and explode violently when ignited in a sealed container.
(which makes it useful).


HHO (or brown’s gas) is an electrolyzed water still in its’ ionic state.
It cannot be stored for very long as it will revert to H2 and O2 rather quickly.
and is generally held in a tank only long enough to be used as it is generated.
This tank should be electrically insulated and off the ground. And never touch it
as a single electrical spark could send you and your project flying in a horrible explosion.
an acrylic plastic or glass tank may be more suitable in modern times.
The tank must be de-ionized and evacuated.
The fire-arrestor in your gas lines must be made of an ionically inert substance,
and inert rubber (medical grade) fuel lines and connectors.


The gas when ignited at atmospheric pressure, will burn at around 10k F
i have no available data on explosive compression compared to H2-O2 explosives,
(it may be classified)


I can tell you that it Does indeed implode
for a fraction of a microsecond.
Just before the explosion.


More testing is needed but this indicates that the phase change from its’ ionic form
happens much more quickly, and may even occur before the release of energy.


Importantly to note when you are welding:
live water vapor is in the flames, and will drip all over your work.
This can also cause contraction cracks in some metals.








Offline sm0ky2

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Re: How HHO works
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2022, 03:42:49 PM »
There has been a lot of mythology around it, mostly because it was a Welder’s trade secret
and its’ secrecy around the technological use in weaponry.


These myths have led to the term “ Brown’s Gas my Ass!”
coined by welders that did not understand the science of using it,
and thus failed at creating, storing, or using the gas without instigating
an ionic reversion into molecular H2-O2.



Offline sm0ky2

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Re: How HHO works
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2022, 07:25:28 PM »
Want to have some fun with it:
Create a plastic “air cannon”, but seal off the back
instead of a flexible membrane.


Let your HHO vent into the cannon and spark it with a piezo.

Offline kolbacict

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Re: How HHO works
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2022, 12:27:52 PM »
Tell me at least where can I get the documentation, the electrical circuit for this product.
This is your product, an American development. Even though it's made in China.
I need to have this repaired. The design of the power supply is unusual, not the same as in most others.  And in general, I often repair them.  :)      Lenze ESMD751L4TXA

And in connection with the current situation, we do not have new equipment.

Offline Cadman

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Re: How HHO works
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2022, 03:22:02 PM »
kolbacict,

Your best bet would be to start here  https://www.lenze.com/en-us/company/global-presence/
Choose your country and it will give you the contact info

Cheers

Offline kolbacict

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Re: How HHO works
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2022, 05:31:38 PM »
kolbacict,

Your best bet would be to start here  https://www.lenze.com/en-us/company/global-presence/
Choose your country and it will give you the contact info

Cheers
You know that the manufacturer gives repair documentation only to authorized service centers.
So there's nothing for me there ...

Offline ramset

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Re: How HHO works
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2022, 06:55:17 PM »
Sir kolbacict
I have made plenty of contacts for such requests over the years
( equipment schematics for various product failures/malfunctions !


Let’s see what we can do ..we are a big research community with many potential
Customers reading !


Please Email a bit more info of failure type ( specifics )
Also your links do not open for me here !
Email is always better !

Respectfully
Chet K
Here an office is in my area of north east USA
Nothing ventured nothing gained …






Offline db4uf

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Re: How HHO works
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2022, 12:19:41 AM »
When HHO is ignited in its pure form.  It produces no energy leading me to believe it must only contain single hydrogen and oxygen atoms.  If it was H2 and or O2 those molecules would have to expand or explode before it could form H2O, basically rocket fuel.  So when atmospheric air is added to the HHO and ignited, we get an explosion.  This would indicate that the atmospheric air would then be the fuel for this explosion!  We have E=MC^2 and the explosive energy E is equal to some of the mass M (atmospheric air) that was added to the HHO.  So this appears to be a conversion of mass to energy.  What do you think?

Dave,

A little update on this: H2 and O2 have to expand to HHO before it can form a water molecule.  You cannot combine H2 and O2 without this happening first!  That is my understanding.  So we are back to why does HHO explode?  I have my thoughts and will explain later.

Dave,

Offline kolbacict

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Re: How HHO works
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2022, 07:51:51 AM »
So when atmospheric air is added to the HHO and ignited, we get an explosion.  This would indicate that the atmospheric air would then be the fuel for this explosion!  We have E=MC^2 and the explosive energy E is equal to some of the mass M (atmospheric air) that was added to the HHO.
No.  E=MC^2  It's not about that.  :)
The H2 molecule combines with the O2 molecule by a free radical mechanism.

Quote
Nothing ventured nothing gained …
That's for sure. :)
I'll try to write a letter
info.us@lenze.com.

Offline db4uf

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Re: How HHO works
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2022, 09:20:40 PM »
No.  E=MC^2  It's not about that.  :)
The H2 molecule combines with the O2 molecule by a free radical mechanism.
That's for sure. :)
I'll try to write a letter
info.us@lenze.com.

I am looking forward to your response

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: How HHO works
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2022, 03:54:53 PM »
Water is formed by a double-ionic bond (covalent)


Oxygen is a -2
And each Hydrogen is a +1


Now, 2 Hydrogens cannot (by themselves) overcome the -4 of an O2 molecule.
It requires the H2 to be in an excited state.
This excited state separates the H+ and H+ slightly further from one another,
(quazi-ionic, but still molecularly bonded by the strong force at this point)
and rips one of the O atoms from the O2 molecule.
Freeing up an O- ion. (this allows for a cascade of exciting more H2’s)


The O- ion that is ‘grabbed’ by the excited H2 ‘turns’ it’s magnetic moment to face the H2
Both H atoms turn their magnetic moments to face the O- ion
the coupling, therefore, is oriented along a single planar vector.
This causes the water molecule to be a ‘dipole’.


The double-ionic bonding releases photons and heat,
leaving the H+ ions in a lower energy state.
The free O- ion results in a net - charge which is free to migrate.
(this is exploited in fuel-cell technology)


In ionic form (HHO) catalyzing this reaction requires less energy,
as the Oxygen is already in its’ ionic state, and does not require excitation.
[Brown’s gas fuel-cells, for this reason, require a catalyst and an ion source (secondary fuel)]
The release of energy in the form of light and heat while approximately the same in magnitude,
are thought to occur much more quickly. (quantification of this requires expensive equipment).


The ionic ‘explosion’ is purely energetic in nature, further testing has demonstrated that,
even though the gasses condense in a momentary implosion: the buildup
of heat can vaporize some of the water,
(another indication that phase change happens before energy release)
creating steam and pressure in a closed vessel, as well as water vapor in an open flame.






Burning Flame: there is a noticeable temperature difference between the two gaseous forms:
In pure nitrogen ionic burns 4000-6000 degrees hotter (instantaneous), both exceed 10k F after
several minutes.


In open air:
H2 + O2 (stoichiometric): starts out around 4800F, then quickly drops about 400-500 degrees.
(heat will build up when torching directly on an object indicating reaction with air causes cooling)
Fusion - O2,CO, CO2, O3


HHO (ionic / Brown’s Gas): starts out around 10k F, then drops about 1k degrees in a mild breeze.
Fusion - CO, CO2, O3, NOx(1,2,3), and
 graphitic carbon nitride particulates[< 0.01g/kmol @ 1 atm / L^3 HHO]