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Author Topic: Dual capacitor paradox  (Read 1365 times)

Offline captainpecan

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Dual capacitor paradox
« on: May 05, 2022, 07:36:34 PM »
I have been interested in doing more work on this part of things for a long time and decided I wanted to learn more about it. The dual capacitor paradox has always been something that I didn't really understand well, but feel there is more to it and that maybe if we can get the efficiency up, it would be a wonderful way to run pulse motors or other oscillator projects.


For those unfamiliar, the two capacitor paradox is when you take 2 capacitors, 1 charged up and the other one is empty. If you hook them in parallel with each other, the energy flows from 1 into the other until the voltages balance out between the two. This gives the illusion of the energy being split between the two caps. That is not in fact the case. You actually lose about 1/2 the energy in the system when the voltages split between the two. I am not disputing that the energy is lost. That is proven and very repeatable on the bench. I am studying the why behind it, and trying to understand for sure where it went and see if we can find an efficient way to conserve it.


There have been many working on this problem, and there are some really positive results. Some work that Russ showed in one of his videos was superb and my inspiration to get back to working on this problem. The following video is 1 of 15 I think that he made in a series to answer some huge questions. They are all well worth watching every second. This particular one deals with this subject, video 5. It is a long video, and he explains things very very well, but to skip to the nitty gritty part for those who are familiar with all of this, move to about 30 minutes to see him setting up the effect I am looking for and 34 to see him send almost all energy from 1 cap right into the other and catch almost all of it.
https://youtu.be/Iw1FSr6xWek


I have been working with this and so far I have been able to replicate it, but only using very small capacitance. So small, that there isn't much I can do with it to be honest. That is what I am researching in this thread. Possible ways to build on what he has done. I will be adding to this thread as I do more experiments. I am working on several different things relating to this concept, but the overall reason for this thread is inspired from Russ's work.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Dual capacitor paradox
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2022, 07:47:12 PM »
I have also been working on trying to use a little hack I found that can supposedly charge a capacitor much more efficiently. It does help understanding principles that may be able to be adapted for use in the two capacitor setup. This hack is for charging capacitors from a stable power source, and I have no idea how he actually figuring his efficiency but the entire thing is worth noting and very cheap to replicate. I ordered 10 of these circuits for about $10 to experiment with in various ways.
https://hackaday.io/project/28432-coin-cell-jump-starter/log/72237-how-to-charge-a-capacitor-efficiently


I first modified one, and forgot to solder a wire. I hooked it between 2 capacitors and smoked it immediately.... 1 down...


I then realized my stupid mistake, and got the 2nd one exactly correct. I hooked it up between 2 capacitors and smoked it immediately as well.... 2 down.


I then decided the resistance must need to be increased between the first cap and the circuit so I can slow down that current to manageable levels and make adjustments as I go and check efficiencies. I put a 5k potentiometer in line with it. It then worked, but it was discharging very slowly as the 2nd capacitor was charging slowly. It still just balanced out the voltages and did not send most of the voltage from 1 to the 2nd. And when I tested the efficiency, it was only 38% efficient. Just discharging the 2 between themselves was getting me about 55% efficiency.
I then adjusted the pot down to about 300 ohm and did it again. The pot immediately glowed red and smoked.... lol... 1 pot down as well now... I think the next test will be with physical resistors instead of potentiometers. I believe the pot roasted because it is actually very fine wire inside it.


Nothing great learned from this experiment yet except for how to fry some stuff! Now I know a little more about what NOT to do.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Dual capacitor paradox
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2022, 08:06:14 PM »
As far as following Russ's work. I am trying to understand properly choosing capacitance with the correct inductor. This appears to be related to tank circuit building, but my inexperience here is getting me confused. I measured the inductance of a coil I wish to use for my experiments and it is 120mH. All the equations I am finding relate things to frequency as well to match capacitors to inductors. I want to use it for 1 pulse from 1 cap, through the inductor, and landing into the 2nd cap. There really isn't a frequency. At this stage I am testing efficiency of each pulse for a possible use in pulse motor applications. Of course, it isn't enough to even be useful yet, but that is what I am working with and learning from. Does anyone have any more experience in this field of capacitors and inductors and matching them properly without actually having a frequency to work with? I do plan on moving solid state with this stuff so frequency of course would be very useful then, but for now, I am trying to understand it all and learn as I go. Just put my mental questions out there in case someone has stuff to ad.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Dual capacitor paradox
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2022, 12:26:25 AM »
Have you seen member poynt99's paper on capacitor energy transfer?  There was an Uploads part of this forum but now I cannot find any such icons on the left hand side column it used to be there....
So I attached the pdf file from my HD.

Offline ramset

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Re: Dual capacitor paradox
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2022, 12:36:11 AM »
Sorry to interrupt
I also believe member OnePower was recently having some discussion on this topic
I am uncertain if exact capacitor experiment.?  However …
Will try to drop a note to him!
Respectfully
Chet K
As always please remove for any reason!

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Dual capacitor paradox
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2022, 01:14:24 AM »
Yes, please post any info you know of. I have also seen others discussing the subject here and there but it seems that people stop looking into the subject after not having much luck and many don't share all their findings I believe to help others try and find other methods. Me personally, if you have ever watched a coil ring on a scope, then you know the majority of that energy was used over and over again while it is ringing. I just want to understand this better because I think there are ways we can use it that we currently are not doing yet.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Dual capacitor paradox
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2022, 01:17:19 AM »
Have you seen member poynt99's paper on capacitor energy transfer?  There was an Uploads part of this forum but now I cannot find any such icons on the left hand side column it used to be there....
So I attached the pdf file from my HD.
Thank you, that's exactly what I was looking for. I took a long time away and just recently got back. It's awesome seeing stuff from long ago coming back up!!! I have a lot of catching up to do.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Dual capacitor paradox
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2022, 03:57:58 AM »
Poynt99s great work in that paper brings up some very good points. It proves that we can recycle a majority of the energy sent from 1 capacitor to another. The magnetic field that builds up around the inductor during this action is where the effect I am most interested in lies. In his tests, he attempted to use a transformer to pull that field down and store it. It appeared to have seriously dropped the efficiency of the transfer and really didn't get any usable benefit. That's not the thing I am looking at here. I am wanting to use that magnetic field for work done, while allowing the recapture of most of the energy used to create that field. What I am wanting to do is not collapse it to catch it. Let it collapse itself and push through to be caught and reused over and over. Of course adding the tiny bit back that is lost to continue the cycles. I'm not looking to get more out of the pulses than put in. I'm looking to get free work out of those pulses and recycle as much as possible to keep doing it over and over. Problem is, is it possible to find values good enough to get work done. Just jotting down my thoughts. I have always thought the magnetic field around a coil comes from the environment anyway as a counter result of the current flow. All our losses are from other means. Other than resistance and drag, I believe an electric motor is always a free energy device. We always flow energy THROUGH the coils and the magnetic field from the environment is what actually runs that motor. Its just reacting to us killing the energy by running it constantly to ground. Its when we stop throwing it to ground and recycling it, we realize that motor still runs, so the motor never actually consumed that energy to begin with. Dont get me wrong, i knownthat field is occuring because of the current flow. But I just feel that field itself is the environment trying to equalize things and bring about an equalibrium as nature always does. Is that the source of free energy we seek? Just my thoughts and ramblings.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Dual capacitor paradox
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2022, 04:36:08 AM »
I have been doing a lot of work over the years passing energy from series batteries to parallel and running a load between them. I have had pretty good results. I may start another thread just for that. But it is not as easy to measure exactly the amount of transfered pulse by pulse to narrow down concepts and ideas. Not to mention, batteries can be unpredictable. Capacitors are more predictable, but seem to be pretty lossy.

Offline onepower

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Re: Dual capacitor paradox
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2022, 05:56:48 PM »
Captainpecan
I was using an Arduino, data logger and two 13.5v/10F caps to calculate the system energy losses similar to Poynt99.

My experiments show any resistance produces a loss near 50% when moving energy from C1 to C2 and the most common way to reduce it is by adding inductance.

It's interesting because as I said the system always losses 50% however we can use an inductance to generate 50% more energy by extracting energy from the current flow between C1-C2. So we always lose 50% but we can gain 50% from the current flow which brings us back up to near 100% efficiency. Here many make the mistake of thinking we simply reduced the losses which is not true. The transfer losses are inherent in the system and cannot change. By adding inductance we generated extra energy which negated the resistance losses, the context matters.

In fact the concept above is the basis of most FE devices. Most don't understand this because there not breaking down the system with respect to the individual energy(s) and total energy present at any given moment. For example, we always dissipate near 50% energy whenever a high energy density discharges into a lower energy density. We always dissipate energy but we can also generate energy during the transfer of energy from high to low. How much energy we can generate in any number of ways determines the total system efficiency which can be COP>1.

Regards
AC

 


Online kolbacict

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Re: Dual capacitor paradox
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2022, 09:00:07 PM »
Try here.  Multisim.
I tried to do it in different ways. The result was always less than one.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Dual capacitor paradox
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2022, 09:52:32 PM »
Great info guys, thank you for sharing.

Offline onepower

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Re: Dual capacitor paradox
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2022, 10:19:20 AM »
kolbacict
Quote
Try here.  Multisim.
I tried to do it in different ways. The result was always less than one.

Oh the old multisim, what version are you running?.

I remember back in the day when the internet was still a fad and P2P was criminal I stumbled onto this strange multisim program through Yahoo/Napster/Limewire. I thought, my god where do these people come from?, how is this even possible to simulate circuits?, lol.

Apparently the real trick is finding people orders of magnitude more intelligent than ourselves and trying to absorb even a fraction of what they know. If we can do this then who knows what is possible?...

Regards
AC








Online kolbacict

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Re: Dual capacitor paradox
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2022, 12:05:20 PM »

Oh the old multisim, what version are you running?.
multisim11, more than ten years of this version.
This is the technique I'm currently working with.
   Microsoft Windows XP Professional
   5.1.2600 Service Pack 3 Сборка 2600
Microsoft Corporation
NVIDIA
AWRDACPI
 X86
x86 Family 15 Model 44 Stepping 2 AuthenticAMD ~1607 МГц
 BIOS   Award Software International, Inc. F17, 22.09.2005
RAM 1Gb  :'(

I have everything old, computer. programs, internet.
new programs just won't work.
By the way, the model files themselves have been preserved.
attached below.



Offline gyulasun

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Re: Dual capacitor paradox
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2022, 10:10:46 PM »

Hi kolbacict, 

If you wish to use another circuit simulator which is much more up to date with the newer components since 2011 than your Multisim and can still run under Windows XP,  then there is the Micro-Cap from Spectrum Software. 
Last year they made it fully free (its original price was around 3500 USD) and downloadable from here: http://www.spectrum-soft.com/download/download.shtm     
(The owner of the company retired last year and finished business that was said to be the reason for making all the software versions free.)   
Maybe it would be worth trying as an additional simulator to play with.