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Author Topic: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.  (Read 9066 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2022, 12:53:48 AM »

Regarding the coils "tangential" orientation I mention above, here is an interesting induction method from member partzman which yields more induction to that of shown in Naudin's right hand side drawing: 
 https://overunity.com/19069/holcomb-energy-systemsbreakthrough-technology-to-the-world/msg564999/#msg564999   

and the induced waveform:   
https://overunity.com/19069/holcomb-energy-systemsbreakthrough-technology-to-the-world/msg565002/#msg565002     

EDIT: Just reading partzman's following posts on this induction method, the magnet does not move towards the coil but in front of it like in Naudin's case but both poles of the moving magnet induces 'tangentially':   
   https://overunity.com/19069/holcomb-energy-systemsbreakthrough-technology-to-the-world/msg565010/#msg565010   

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2022, 01:04:35 AM »
Regarding the coils "tangential" orientation I mention above, here is an interesting induction method from member partzman which yields more induction to that of shown in Naudin's right hand side drawing: 
 https://overunity.com/19069/holcomb-energy-systemsbreakthrough-technology-to-the-world/msg564999/#msg564999   

and the induced waveform:   
https://overunity.com/19069/holcomb-energy-systemsbreakthrough-technology-to-the-world/msg565002/#msg565002     

EDIT: Just reading partzman's following posts on this induction method, the magnet does not move towards the coil but in front of it like in Naudin's case but both poles of the moving magnet induces 'tangentially':   
   https://overunity.com/19069/holcomb-energy-systemsbreakthrough-technology-to-the-world/msg565010/#msg565010

NICE!   Yes I want to look into all of that...  I am rigging up the full test build, seems I have all the parts to make a rough model of all the components.  If I verify this design will work as intended then we can see what coils work best..

The way it's going- I should have some results tonight!

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2022, 03:18:35 AM »
 :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

I tried the latest design and the numbers were complete opposite from the first test.  Efficiency went down..  Numbers posted below..

I will have to experiment and redo the first setup to figure out whats going on...

IN 6v 7.62 watts
Out .3465 watts
LOST 7.27 watts
RPM 1100
RPM per watt- 144


IN 8v 11.68 watts
OUT 1.087 watts
LOST 10.593
RPM 1580
RPM per watt- 135.27

IN 10V 17.2 watts
OUT 2.158
LOST 15.042
RPM 2063
RPM per watt- 119.94

IN 12V 24.72 watts
OUT 3.498 watts
LOST 21.222 watts
RPM 2507
RPM per watt- 101.415

IN 13V 28.6 watts
OUT 4.418 watts
LOST 24.182 Watts
RPM 2740
RPM per watt- 95.80

IN 14V 33.18 watts
OUT 5.16 Watts
LOST 28.02 watts
RPM 2950
RPM per watt- 88.91

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2022, 05:12:01 AM »
I am thinking it may be cores and the timing throwing me off.

The only bog down the repelling magnets are causing is during the approach to top dead center of the rotor magnets.  At top dead center, the repelling magnets will actually help the rotor by repelling it away to keep spinning. So I would want to kill ALL attraction right after top dead center so the rotor can get that big kick.

But the iron cores + flux will be attracting the rotor even after top dead center, thus robbing me of that kick.

So first I think I need to offset the 2 rotors so coil induction occurs a little earlier than the approaching repelling rotor so it can neutralize the repelling force as the rotor approaches the repelling magnets. Then when the repelling magnets are top dead center, KILL the generator coils with a switch, to reap the repulsion kick.

And finally I think I need to lose the iron cores.  The attraction has to be finely tuned and the cores are going to add attraction when it needs to be killed.

I will lose some induction from losing the cores, but I guess I can make it up with more copper.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2022, 12:56:32 PM »
Sorry for disreagarding the cores attraction, I was sticking to your drawing that shows air core coils... 

If you still have the setup, you could attach a magnet onto the back ends of the coil cores in an attempt to just compensate for the attraction ?

Edit: you would lose both the on approach and the on leaving attraction of the cores.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2022, 01:16:22 PM »
Sorry for disreagarding the cores attraction, I was sticking to your drawing that shows air core coils... 

If you still have the setup, you could attach a magnet onto the back ends of the coil cores in an attempt to just compensate for the attraction ?

Edit: you would lose both the on approach and the on leaving attraction of the cores.

It's cool yo...  Yes I thought about it all night and I think I can get this to work..  I will be rebuilding everything properly..

The attraction (collecting current) timing is critical..    I definitely only want to use air coils so i can control the attraction completely. And Then I only want to collect (induce an attraction field) when the rotor magnet is approaching the stationary magnets (repelling)..    When the rotor magnet is at top dead center from the stationary magnets, the magnetic field in the coils must collapse, thus allowing the rotor to be kicked by the repelling magnets.

I can offset the 2 rotors slightly so I am collecting at full amperage force just as the repelling magnets are approaching at the most critical moment needed to neutralize the resistance.

If this works as I imagine, there will be a point where the resistance from the repelling magnets is reduced so much that the motor is harvesting pure gain of momentum from the repelling magnets kicking the rotor. Then it could possibly run itself disconnected from the motor.

Balancing of the fields will be crucial. So in my build, I must make the stationary magnets and generator coils adjustable to be able to dial it in. And I will probably need a Mosfet and a Hall sensor to cut the generator coils at the precise timing

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2022, 12:36:14 AM »
Here is the Build Plan..

"Floodrod's Lenz Dependent Generator"

1. Since I will be using air coils, I will need more flux (Lenz) than if I was using iron cores. So I will use 4 coils with 4 big Neo's on each rotor.
2. I want the ability to alter the amount of stationary repelling magnets based on the performance, so starting with 2 stationary ones.
3. The magnet count on each rotor must match but the stationary magnet count can be either 2 or 4.
4. The coils will be switched with a mosfet to only collect upon approach of the repelling fields. Then collapse around top dead center. of the repelling fields.
5. The rotors may be offset for 2 purposes. 1- harvest current at the optimal time / gain. 2- To neutralize the repulsion field upon approach.

This design also allows for additional rotors / coils / stationary magnets to be added to the main shaft if the needs arise. Perhaps 4 coils can not generate enough Lenz to neutralize the stationary magnets, no problem. I can add another rotor and more coils. Same logic with the stationary magnets.

It will take me a few days to get all the pieces ready for assembly.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2022, 01:38:11 AM »
Looks good for a first look,  will come back tomorrow if I find issues.   8)

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2022, 03:22:19 AM »
I guess this thread is morphing into my brainstorming idea thread.  As I am printing, I have another idea somewhat related.  I am going to throw it out there and see if anyone has any comments.

OK, so while thinking on Lenz Law, it seems the most hurtful part of it is immediately after top dead center and when the rotor is trying to leave the coil.  The flux wants to pull the rotor back in..  I figure after the rotor is clear from the coil, the buildup of flux in the coil from the next rotor magnet actually helps to attract the rotor to the coil.  But only helps till top dead center again, where it becomes a hinderance.  The issue is that the most powerful part of the flux buildup in the coil comes exactly when we don't need it or want it.

I was doing some tests holding a powerful magnet against a spinning rotor that had 2 same pole magnets. I placed magnets real close to the rotor in Repel and Attraction mode. Neither of which slowed the rotor nor made the drive motor pull more power so long as the magnets used to cause drag were balanced against the rotor evenly.  I assume many of you already know this, but I think Lenz drag happens not because of the magnetic fields themselves, but because these fields vary in strength at exactly the wrong times. 

What if we could flip the polarity of the coil exactly after the rotor magnet reaches dead center of the coil.  The coil world then repel the rotor magnet at the perfect time.

I am wondering if this can be done with a 2nd rotor.  Both rotors would  use same polarities between magnets. And both rotors would be orientated same polarity towards the coils between them. They would need 4 magnets each and the rotors would need to be aligned at a 45 degree angle from each other.  The spacing of the magnets on the rotor would also need to be dialed in so that both rotor's magnets overlap at the exact sweet-spot.  When 1 coil is aligned top dead center (Full Harvest Season), the next magnet on the other rotor is coming in to flip the coil's field to propel the first rotor. And the cycle continues.

Even though we are using same polarities all facing in, the magnetic fields in the coils would be flipping twice as quickly as opposed to using 1 rotor of alternating polarities. Thus producing AC. If this is possible, we might even be able to use iron cores for better power production..  Not to mention no need to switch the coils at all.

When viewing the pics, Assume all magnets only have 1 pole. (Yes I understand monopoles do not exist, but for simplicity of the diagram). So again, all the same poles facing towards the inside coils. Offset 45 degrees, and magnets spaced perfectly on the rotors where the pole flip comes right after dead center.


Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2022, 01:38:31 PM »
Unfortunately I think that latest design will not do any good.  After evaluating it, i think at top dead center when the attraction is the greatest, the "approaching flipper" will be opposing the rotor spin along with the the Lenz at dead center.  Thus cancelling any advantage .
« Last Edit: April 19, 2022, 03:54:47 PM by floodrod »

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2022, 03:56:08 AM »
deleted
« Last Edit: April 20, 2022, 12:49:20 PM by floodrod »

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2022, 09:52:38 AM »
Here is a video demonstrating the main "Power Gain" concept behind the upcoming build.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8U102MgiiY

Some of the main parts have completed printing, I have a few more parts to still design and print.

Since this was an "Idea" thread and now has off-topic ideas cluttering it, I will be starting a new thread in a few days documenting my build -- "Floodrod's Lenz Dependent Generator"


Interesting concept. I will be watching to see how things go. I do however have a question. I think in the video you describe opposite of Lenz law when you say the coil will attract the magnet towards it due to Lenz law. I could be thinking backwards, but Lenz law always opposes the motion of the magnet. So on the way in, it will try and repel to slow it. It will attract when the magnet is trying to pull away.
Now, if you are referring to using the concept we spoke about in your adams motor thread, where this coil is energized by another magnetic field on another rotor, I believe your experiments showed the original generated current was cut doing that but it did generate a field in the diversion coil. Problem is, that new approaching magnet will also generate a field in it counteracting it all.
BUT, you can do what I was referring to before. Instead of the diversion coil pointed at another magnet, point it at steel on that rotor. Then it WILL attract and aid in rotation. The exact concept im building into my generator. Mine doesn't have your stationary magnet though like yours. I hope my rambling made sense.

Offline BorisKrabow

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2022, 12:12:38 PM »


.....BUT, you can do what I was referring to before. Instead of the diversion coil pointed at another magnet, point it at steel on that rotor. Then it WILL attract and aid in rotation......
  Hi!   –°aptainpecan . I agree with your ideas , just make small changes to the design . But this design has limitations.
          It is necessary to connect the coil at the moment when the magnet leaves the coil and the ferromagnetic compensator approaches , a diode can be used for this. in this version, all magnets must be turned to the coil with one pole .
          The device can be based on the rotor of a car generator, magnetize only one side of the rotor, and leave the opposite teeth without a magnetic field . the second half of the rotor will become compensators . If the coil core interferes, air coils can be used.

   regards Boris   
   

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2022, 01:02:18 PM »

Interesting concept. I will be watching to see how things go. I do however have a question. I think in the video you describe opposite of Lenz law when you say the coil will attract the magnet towards it due to Lenz law. I could be thinking backwards, but Lenz law always opposes the motion of the magnet. So on the way in, it will try and repel to slow it. It will attract when the magnet is trying to pull away.
Now, if you are referring to using the concept we spoke about in your adams motor thread, where this coil is energized by another magnetic field on another rotor, I believe your experiments showed the original generated current was cut doing that but it did generate a field in the diversion coil. Problem is, that new approaching magnet will also generate a field in it counteracting it all.
BUT, you can do what I was referring to before. Instead of the diversion coil pointed at another magnet, point it at steel on that rotor. Then it WILL attract and aid in rotation. The exact concept im building into my generator. Mine doesn't have your stationary magnet though like yours. I hope my rambling made sense.

Wow..  I appreciate that!  You are right- It always works against you during approach and exit.  As you say- it repels on the way in, and attracts on the way out.  That must be why switching coils off and on never really increases anything, because yes switching them would cut 1/2 the drag out, but you lose 1/2 the output power.  Makes sense..

That put a monkey-wrench is my whole design.  Back to the drawing board...

Offline BorisKrabow

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2022, 01:42:11 PM »