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Author Topic: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.  (Read 7948 times)

Offline floodrod

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Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« on: April 14, 2022, 03:15:12 AM »
I been thinking about this since last night, considering a new build. But before I commit- I want to see what feedback / suggestions / criticism others have.

Purple shaft is spun by a motor from outside power.  Exactly half the rotor will be steel or iron thick enough to redirect most if not all flux.. 

2 pairs of magnets all same polarity on reciprocation bearings with air gap between the rotor. These magnets can freely move in linear motion. 

In any position of the rotor, there should be the exact amount of flux in contact range from the rotor to the metal.  So there should never be more or less (barely any fluctuation)  magnetic force upon the rotor. So in theory, the power to rotate the shaft should not increase whether we use HUGE magnets or Small magnets and will not increase in any position of the rotor because it is Always balanced..  At the exact moment one set of magnets is crossing the edge away from the steel, the other set of magnets is crossing into the steel's line of flux always keeping the amount of flux equal.

When 2 same pole magnets flux are in range of the metal, they attract to the metal exactly as the other 2 magnets repel each other. Creating 4 individual reciprocators which can all be converted to rotation or whatever.

I am thinking this configuration may unlink the balance of input to output allowing one to scale the output power by increasing magnet sizing without adding additional input to rotate the center disk..

Does anyone know so similar designs that were tested or can point out errors in my thinking?  I've noticed very few things work as I think they will, so any feedback appreciated before I start designing this.


Floor

  • Guest
Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2022, 11:25:14 AM »

Exactly half the rotor will be steel or iron thick enough to redirect most if not all flux.. 


1. The drawing does not match the (above quoted part of the) description ?

2. Magnet repulsion and magnet attraction are each weaker at far distances and
each is greater at close distances.

          But...

3. In general, magnet    attraction (N to S)   is    greater than   magnet    repulsion
(N to N or S to S),    when two magnets are at    close    distances.   

4. In general, magnet    repulsion (N to N or S to S)    is    greater than   magnet     attraction
(N to S),   when two magnets are at    far   distances.

5. Spinning an iron disk in front of a magnet will produce an electric current in the iron
disk.

6. The electric current within the disk will produce a magnetic field that will oppose the
rotation of the iron disk (especially at high speeds).


Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2022, 01:54:31 PM »
1. The drawing does not match the (above quoted part of the) description ?

5. Spinning an iron disk in front of a magnet will produce an electric current in the iron
disk.

6. The electric current within the disk will produce a magnetic field that will oppose the
rotation of the iron disk (especially at high speeds).

Thank You Honorable Floor!


1. Yes the drawing and description is not matching exactly with regards to the metal in rotor thickness. But I assume you got the idea from it.

5 and 6.  Would this effect still be produced when both sides of the iron plate are exposed to the same polarity of magnetic field?

Please forgive my ignorance in these subjects, but the sharing of your wealth of knowledge is highly valued by me.

Edit- and for clarification in case my description was lacking-  each of the 4 magnets have their own linear rail and all 4 can move in a linear direction from and away from the disk independently.  And all the same polarities will always face the center disk.

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2022, 05:15:44 PM »
Thanks for the further explanation and for your usual excellent builds
and sharing.

5 and 6... yes, both poles matching or not, drag upon the disk's spinning
will be present due to the electric currents produced. 

How much that drag will be, can easily be tested by spinning a complete steel disk
between two magnets.  It may not be all that great of an opposition / much of
a problem?
                           See this very short video @
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30oPZO_z7-4

       Also...
This will produce heat in the disk. 
The high elecrtical resistance of the steel or iron will produce heat.

            best wishes

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2022, 03:08:27 PM »
           P.S.

Same magnet polarity on opposite sides of the spinning disk.

Will they each cancel out the current loops produced by the other / no drag ?
              Very interesting idea / cool !
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
If the disk is too thick, they definitly won't cancel. On the other hand, if too thin
there will not be enough attractiion to cause strong motion.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

If that works out..

You could try a 1/2 disk and a coil around each magnet (non reciprocating /
non moving magnets)?
                                       or
A disk with holes in it and a coil around each magnet (non reciprocating /
non moving magnets)?
                      for electricity generation...

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2022, 07:34:31 PM »


5 and 6... yes, both poles matching or not, drag upon the disk's spinning
will be present due to the electric currents produced. 

How much that drag will be, can easily be tested by spinning a complete steel disk
between two magnets.  It may not be all that great of an opposition / much of
a problem?
                           See this very short video @
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30oPZO_z7-4

Thank You.  I did google it for a bit but all the info I found on these currents were speaking of Changing magnetic fields creating eddy curents. Such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current
"Eddy currents (also called Foucault's currents) are loops of electrical current induced within conductors by a changing magnetic field in the conductor according to Faraday's law of induction."
I was unsuccessful finding any verification of this effect with like pole magnetic forces.

           P.S.

Same magnet polarity on opposite sides of the spinning disk.

Will they each cancel out the current loops produced by the other / no drag ?
              Very interesting idea / cool !
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
If the disk is too thick, they definitly won't cancel. On the other hand, if too thin
there will not be enough attractiion to cause strong motion.


Now you are peaking my interest again to try it.  Can you point me to some material which references that you speak on,  same pole forces creating current?


If that works out..

You could try a 1/2 disk and a coil around each magnet (non reciprocating /
non moving magnets)?
                                       or
A disk with holes in it and a coil around each magnet (non reciprocating /
non moving magnets)?
                      for electricity generation...


You lost me on the non-moving magnet parts.  But I'm interested, as non moving stuff is a lot easier to build..  Interested in hearing more on this

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2022, 09:22:42 PM »
I did a basic test spinning a solid thick disc against 4 magnets all on the same side of the disc.  I could not test opposite side of the disc because of the motor design.

1. No magnets in range:  29 volts-  .5 amps
2. All 4 North Magnets-  29 volts .8 amps
3. Two North magnets , Two South magnets:    29 volts / 1.15 Amps


I have this on video- and I understand this was not a controlled scientific test.  Just based on observation:  .6 amp increase of input power with alternating polarity.  .3 amp increase with like polarities.  Will need more tests to verify, but based on this:

????  Drag increases with like poles,  but only half as much compared to using opposing poles ?????

I uploaded the rough test here-  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0FKg-1Qnk8

NOTE-  Also tested with 2 magnets only.  Little noticeable differences in amperage between like and opposing poles.  Both ways relatively the same increase.   Trying to think of the reason, and possible extensive testing to follow.

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2022, 03:18:48 AM »
Thank You.  I did google it for a bit but all the info I found on these currents were speaking of Changing magnetic fields creating eddy curents. Such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current
"Eddy currents (also called Foucault's currents) are loops of electrical current induced within conductors by a changing magnetic field in the conductor according to Faraday's law of induction."
I was unsuccessful finding any verification of this effect with like pole magnetic forces.

A changing magnetic field is not limited to            swapping polarities.

An expanding or contracting field, either one is also a changing field.

An approaching or retreating     '          '      '   '    '      '       '           '

A sliding across                                                '    '      '       '           '

And they all produce an electric current in a near by conductor.
Steel is a conductor.

A good video demonstration of this is here @
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sENgdSF8ppA













Floor

  • Guest
Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2022, 03:39:27 AM »
Don't use a power supply that compensates / holds a set voltage
when under a load.

Spin the motor / disk.
Read the RPMs.

Approach the spinning disk with a       magnet       or     magnets.
Read the RPMs with the magnet or magnets in place.

The magnets must be directly across from each other and on opposite sides
of the spinning disk.  Like in your reciprocator drawing.

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2022, 03:50:13 AM »
Floodrod quote

"You lost me on the non-moving magnet parts.  But I'm interested, as non moving stuff is a lot easier to build..  Interested in hearing more on this"

The end of that quote

Passing a steel plate between two opposing magnets (in then out the other side) will
fluctuate the magnetic field around those magnets (changing fields).  Coils around
those magnets will be within changing magnetic fields and will there fore produce
electric currents / generate electricity.

If two same polarity (N to N or S to S ) / opposing magnets can be placed on opposite
sides of a spinning steel disk,  without this putting a drag on that spin, then ...

This may indicate that an electric generator could be built which does not bog down
the mechanical power source / prime mover of the generator when a resistive load is
placed across the generator ?

Repeat.. A changing magnetic field does not    only   refer to an alternating polarity field.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2022, 04:11:13 AM »
Floodrod quote

"You lost me on the non-moving magnet parts.  But I'm interested, as non moving stuff is a lot easier to build..  Interested in hearing more on this"

The end of that quote

Passing a steel plate between two oposing magnets (in then out the other side) will
fluctuate the magnetic field around those magnets (changeing fields).  Coils around
those magnets will be within changeing magnetic fields and will there fore produce
electric currents / generate electricity.

If two same polarity (N to N or S to S ) / opposing magnets can be placed on opposite
sides of a spinning steel disk,  without this putting a drag on that spin, then ...

This may indicate that an electric genetator could be built whch does not bog down
the mechanical power source / prime mover of the generator when a resistive load is
placed across the generator ?

Gotcha..   I am going to hunt down some steel disks to test with.  And I can do RPM with my other supply that does not lock the voltage, recording watts needed to obtain XXX RPM.

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2022, 04:13:58 AM »
Cool and thanks !

I moded that last post a little.

Best wishes
     floor

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2022, 04:45:19 AM »
While we are discussing, I have 1 more thing I been thinking relating..  What about ridding the steel.  (see pic)

2 magnets (no steel) on a rotor alternating polarity spinning..  4 stationary magnets-  same polarity on 1 side, opposite polarity on the other.  With coils around the stationary magnets.

One side of the rotor always attracting to the outer magnets when lined up,  the other side always repelling. 

"Changing" polarities of the outside magnets while Cancelling drag out?? 

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2022, 04:57:29 AM »
Numbers 2, 3, and 4

https://overunity.com/19091/quad-reciprocator-motor-idea/msg565711/#msg565711

Note... There is a range of distance apart, in which attraction and repelling
force magnitudes will balance...  Both decrease with distance, but not at the same rate
per distance increment...

if blanced between the attarct and the repell, then no drag from mechanical magnetic
forces.

and no eddy currents inside the neo magnets I'm pretty sure ....
but definitly no currents within non electrically conducting ceramic magnets

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2022, 05:22:38 AM »
Numbers 2, 3, and 4

https://overunity.com/19091/quad-reciprocator-motor-idea/msg565711/#msg565711

Note... There is a range of distance apart, in which attraction and repelling
force magnitudes will balance...  Both decrease with distance, but not at the same rate
per distance increment...

if blanced between the attarct and the repell, then no drag from mechanical magnetic
forces.

and no eddy currents inside the neo magnets I'm pretty sure ....
but definitly no currents within non electrically conducting ceramic magnets

Your answers sound promising.  No drag = Scalable.
Magnet to Magnet sounds like it will cause more flux change than steel to magnet. And no hunting down exact thickness steel.

It's sounding more like a "Go".