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Author Topic: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.  (Read 12896 times)

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #90 on: April 25, 2022, 07:58:47 AM »
Okay, I get what you are saying now. I think at the exact center between the coils would be exactly like being at TDC of the coil. If I am thinking correctly, the two sides would cancel out, so you should be correct. But... I'm not sure what you are thinking for using that to our advantage or if you are just picking around to understand it. Because in most cases if the magnet is exacy between 2 coils, I doubt it would even be a closed circuit at that time. Most likely it would be an open coil situation if you thinking about a motor side.
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Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #91 on: April 25, 2022, 12:45:50 PM »
Quote from: captainpecan on April 25, 2022, 07:58:47 AM
Okay, I get what you are saying now. I think at the exact center between the coils would be exactly like being at TDC of the coil. If I am thinking correctly, the two sides would cancel out, so you should be correct. But... I'm not sure what you are thinking for using that to our advantage or if you are just picking around to understand it. Because in most cases if the magnet is exacy between 2 coils, I doubt it would even be a closed circuit at that time. Most likely it would be an open coil situation if you thinking about a motor side.

Cool now we are on the same wavelength again..

But if everything is the same size and same spacing,  it is not only balancing between magnets.  Also balancing at every spot.  When magnet entering coil, other magnet is exiting. whatever way the coil charges, one is hurt- one is helped.  At every place.

Now picture this..  If coils and magnets are aligned perfectly = they counteract each other almost evenly.  reduced drag, but no way to slice it apart and only use the advantage because at every time the coil is helping the rotor, it is also hurting it evenly at the exact same time.

But what if we take away 1 coil..  4 magnets / 3 coils..  Now the coil and magnets still balance out to some degree but not so evenly.  Since the coils are not aligned at the same spacing as the magnets, it leaves us brief moments in the rotation where the the help to hurt ratio are uneven.  Thus allowing us to switch the coils in the harvest windows.

Sort of like a muller / adams combined

If robert adams really did get overunity-  it wasn't from that flyback spike.  His coils must have been aligned not perfectly -disrupting the balance.  And we know he switched the output coils.  Whether he knew what was happening or not- I think that was the source of gain in his design.

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Offline captainpecan

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #92 on: April 25, 2022, 04:14:21 PM »
Yeah, that's the muller concept. Interesting enough, I can't find it now, but many years ago I saw a piece written up that said muller specificly said his unbalance of rotor coil magnet ratio was from adams. It interested me when I saw that, but I was not able to find anything from adams actually showing it.  It's a concept I always keep in mind actually. I was going to do that with my current motor design but I wanted more in series for more turns on thinner wire. So I want with 8 on the rotor and 6 coils. Firing the coils in pairs gives me 24 pulses per rotation. It's how I have it built now. It's kind of the best of both worlds. Because many are build using the 4 to 3 ratio as well. Muller did however use 9 to 8 I believe, or at least it was only a gap of 1 between rotor magnet ratio. It is a very effective way to cut down on magnet cogging. But it doesn't do anything for Lenz law of course. It just evens it out and splits up those sticky spots. A flywheel helps too quite a bit.
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Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #93 on: April 25, 2022, 05:22:36 PM »
Quote from: captainpecan on April 25, 2022, 04:14:21 PM
Yeah, that's the muller concept. Interesting enough, I can't find it now, but many years ago I saw a piece written up that said muller specificly said his unbalance of rotor coil magnet ratio was from adams. It interested me when I saw that, but I was not able to find anything from adams actually showing it.  It's a concept I always keep in mind actually. I was going to do that with my current motor design but I wanted more in series for more turns on thinner wire. So I want with 8 on the rotor and 6 coils. Firing the coils in pairs gives me 24 pulses per rotation. It's how I have it built now. It's kind of the best of both worlds. Because many are build using the 4 to 3 ratio as well. Muller did however use 9 to 8 I believe, or at least it was only a gap of 1 between rotor magnet ratio. It is a very effective way to cut down on magnet cogging. But it doesn't do anything for Lenz law of course. It just evens it out and splits up those sticky spots. A flywheel helps too quite a bit.

According to my current research, no way to fully eliminate lenz if magnets are alternating.

But if magnets are all the same polarity, lenz does not affect the rotor.. I am skeptical on blanket statements and textbook answers. I need to see things from myself.

In my previous image of four same poles and four coils, if anyone can point out where in the rotation lenz drag can affect the rotor, I would be appreciative.

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Offline captainpecan

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #94 on: April 25, 2022, 05:58:31 PM »
Quote from: floodrod on April 25, 2022, 05:22:36 PM
According to my current research, no way to fully eliminate lenz if magnets are alternating.

But if magnets are all the same polarity, lenz does not affect the rotor.. I am skeptical on blanket statements and textbook answers. I need to see things from myself.

In my previous image of four same poles and four coils, if anyone can point out where in the rotation lenz drag can affect the rotor, I would be appreciative.


I definitely appreciate your need to test and see for yourself. There are so many times I know something will not work before I do it, but I still do, because I don't understand WHY it won't work. So I get it.
As far as the Lenz drag though. What you are referring to as Lenz drag is the back emf. Think about what it actually is. A changing magnetic field cutting through turns of wire. This enduces current in the wire. If it not connected, you will get a voltage shown on the scope, but no Lenz drag yet. Because what you are seeing is just the POTENTIAL or, voltage. Put a load on the coil, and the current will flow. The voltage will adjust according to the load, but current is now flowing. Now you are getting the back emf, or lenz drag. And it will always work against the magnetic field which creates it. It is the current that causes it because it is the current flowing that creates it.
So, long story short, as long as you have current in that coil, you have that back emf. It does not care which polarity of the magnet it is seeing. It will adjust to drag it down whichever direction. It's just how it works and it sucks ass. But it's finding that very core understanding of what it is, will help in the hunt to defeat it, or at least work with it better.
If you have not watched it yet, Peter Lindemann explains it very well in his video Electric Motor Secrets. There is a copy on you tube but the audio gets way off from the video a ways into it. But his explanation for back emf is great and very understandable. It's in the first 45 minutes. It's worth a good watch if you have never seen it because he also shows exactly how to test a motors efficiency. Which I will be doing in next couple days I hope on mine.
https://youtu.be/OSJF3GlYGVc
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Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #95 on: April 25, 2022, 06:31:11 PM »
...

I see what you're saying. My brain just works a little differently to understand things.

Lenz is still happening. I am neutralizing some of it out with the cost of being less electricity produced.
I have another idea I am going to try. I might take you up on that moderated thread.

Thank you
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 11:57:20 PM by floodrod »
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Offline captainpecan

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #96 on: April 26, 2022, 12:08:59 AM »
Just message me with what you want it named. Let's keep the ideas flowing!
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Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #97 on: April 26, 2022, 03:48:21 AM »
Had several ideas..  Put together easiest one..  10 minute assembly for some proof of concept.

I am pretty sure this design should be free from Lenz Drag.. 

Its producing some voltage while hand spinning- even with god-awful gap between coil and rotor and 1 small bolt as a core.  Wondering if it is capable of producing usable power in this config.

Note-  Magnets are alternating polarity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elXPP8GwjQU
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Offline captainpecan

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #98 on: April 26, 2022, 04:19:16 AM »
But how would the coil push the rotor? There is a line of flux cutting wires somewhere there. Is the rotor perfectly aligned with the center of the coil? I am thinking it's off center just enough to cause some of the flux to cut turns. A voltage is created somehow. Interesting because it should make very little voltage if any. Worth understanding better.
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Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #99 on: April 26, 2022, 04:55:35 AM »
Quote from: captainpecan on April 26, 2022, 04:19:16 AM
But how would the coil push the rotor? There is a line of flux cutting wires somewhere there. Is the rotor perfectly aligned with the center of the coil? I am thinking it's off center just enough to cause some of the flux to cut turns. A voltage is created somehow. Interesting because it should make very little voltage if any. Worth understanding better.

No claims of coil pushing the rotor here.  Just trying to find a way to beat lenz.

I had the magnets in same polarity in that video.  I just switched them.  lighting an Led and getting just about 11 volts with the Led connected by hand spinning.  The wave form changed now.  Looks much better..

Maybe misaligning it would be better in this situation?  If we could align it where one rotor magnet gets more flux exposure from the coil than the other- perhaps it can help the spin by repelling harder.

Too much to think about now!  But here's the vid llighting an Led with 11 volts hand spinning  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz6LlKrKoVk


Edit--  We can probably cut more flux with different shaped magnets and still keep both aligned to neutralize drag.  Pic attached
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Offline captainpecan

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #100 on: April 26, 2022, 07:53:35 AM »
I could be wrong, but it seems like you spin it a little less hard the first time and it spins longer and smother with open coil. But when you hook the led to it, it seems to slow faster. Like it's getting the brakes put on by Lenz still. Can't tell for sure of course from that video, but it kind of looks that way. Something you can do to test it easily is hook a second led up across the 1st one, just opposite. Then you will load both positive and negative sides and leds will alternate lighting. But if there is back emf kicking it will double and make it more obvious. Just FYI, you probably figured it out already, but if you hadn't understood it yet looking at the wave form, you can see why it's a square wave on the top only. You can clearly see the dip still on the negative side but the led is making the positive side a square because it is forward biased. Adding the reversed led should give you the square on the bottom as well. Just pointing it out for learning in case you didn't notice. Keep it up!
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Floor

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #101 on: April 26, 2022, 08:03:29 AM »
And / or, add additional led s, in parallel (same polarity) to the already present one
(increase the load)?
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Offline captainpecan

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #102 on: April 26, 2022, 08:05:35 AM »
Yeah, just lay one across the same leads in parallel but reversed. It will flash one for the positive cycle and the other for the negative cycle. If Lenz is in fact present, you may be able to see it easily that way because it will double it.
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #103 on: April 26, 2022, 10:15:58 AM »
Quote from: captainpecan on April 26, 2022, 08:05:35 AM
Yeah, just lay one across the same leads in parallel but reversed. It will flash one for the positive cycle and the other for the negative cycle. If Lenz is in fact present, you may be able to see it easily that way because it will double it.


Yes, what you suggest is much better than using only one LED. But the even better load would be to use a Wheat lamp instead of the LEDs. Random search below but ebay also a good source: 
https://www.allelectronics.com/category/320700/lamps/miniature/grain-of-wheat-lamps/1.html   

These small lamps still give a nonlinear load behaviour but at least they do not have a forward voltage threshold like LEDs do under which no load current can flow. 
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Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #104 on: April 26, 2022, 12:22:43 PM »
I will test more tonight..  But did a few quick ones.

1. 2x leds.  no notice of drag
2. Shorted coil leads totally- no notice of drag
3. used 8 ohm resistor as load-  no notice of drag
4. used Led and switched resistor in parallel while spinning.  No notice of rotor slowdown

Tonight after work- I will hook a motor to it and count RPMs and input required to load it.

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