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Author Topic: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.  (Read 6551 times)

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2022, 11:10:17 PM »
I am sure this has been thought of before, but what about this.

The generator coil inside a horseshoe or c-shaped iron core

When lenz drag happens, the other pole of the coil is now located also in line with the rotor magnet. When the coil is switched on, the South Pole of the magnet attracts the North Pole of the coil in the escape, the other side of the horseshoe-shaped core is now south canceling out or repelling the rotor at the same time.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2022, 02:15:53 AM »
Regarding the coils "tangential" orientation I mention above, here is an interesting induction method from member partzman which yields more induction to that of shown in Naudin's right hand side drawing: 
 https://overunity.com/19069/holcomb-energy-systemsbreakthrough-technology-to-the-world/msg564999/#msg564999   

and the induced waveform:   
https://overunity.com/19069/holcomb-energy-systemsbreakthrough-technology-to-the-world/msg565002/#msg565002     

EDIT: Just reading partzman's following posts on this induction method, the magnet does not move towards the coil but in front of it like in Naudin's case but both poles of the moving magnet induces 'tangentially':   
   https://overunity.com/19069/holcomb-energy-systemsbreakthrough-technology-to-the-world/msg565010/#msg565010

I have been looking into your links you graciously provided.  I want to make sure I understand this, as it seems important.

Image on left is the normal coil orientation.  Equal repel and attraction force both working against the rotor.

Image on the right, small amount of repel on both the approach and escape, but one BIG attraction spike right at dead center..

If I am viewing the correctly, it would seem my idea of the 2 repelling magnets may indeed be feasible still..  I would lose a little on the small repel force on the approach, but my stationary magnets can neutralize out the big attraction spike then ride the stationary magnet repel force + the snall escape push on the way out.

If this is correct, this would be phenomenal.


Offline captainpecan

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2022, 03:02:58 AM »
I haven't had a chance to look over the links yet. But those pics you posted remind me of the zero force motor. Something I have been considering building myself to learn more about it. I saw tinman has a video of his and he wasn't real happy with how it turned out. Bedini made one that rips pretty good and supposedlybuses next to no current. I dont know enough about it yet though. But it uses that sideways coil concept. But reading those scope pics, it's a cool effect. There is only one large pulse because the magnet is only cutting wires in one direction, instead cutting 2 opposite with a core in the middle as usual.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2022, 03:52:11 AM »
There is only one large pulse because the magnet is only cutting wires in one direction, instead cutting 2 opposite with a core in the middle as usual.

I am new to the game, I have not seen it yet.  They say it is a lenz free configuration.  If the only spike is at dead center it makes sense..  The flux pulls the magnet rotor in, then opposes it on the way out.  Thus practically cancelling out lenz.  But I don't think my stationary magnets will have any use here


Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2022, 06:55:46 PM »

I am experimenting with the "Parallel Core Generator"   as outlines in the attached PDF.  According to that PDF, it states "Even when the core is turned by 90 degrees, it generates electricity as efficiently as conventional generator since the individual wires of the coil cuts the magnets flux at 90 degrees satisfying the equation E = nAH ɯ sin(ɵ) where 'ɵ' will be 90 degrees"

I have the output of my coil hooked up to a full wave bridge rectifier and I am measuring Volts and Amps coming out, as well as watching RPM.

I am not generating enough current to effectively measure lenz drag. But I can say that the horizontal 90 degree alignment does indeed generate some power.
My crude tests are not good though because holding it the standard way which directs the flux at the magnets is exposing more surface area towards the magnets, thus generating more power.

I will have to wind a coil in the horizontal fashion which exposes as much area of the wire to the magnets flux path to get a better idea of what's happening. 

I am thinking that if the power output is the same, this must indeed assist in directing Lenz Drag Flux away from the rotor.  I think it is worth the effort to do real tests with this.

As a note- I tried Partzman's Optimal Topology positioning but could not generate anything.  But I can't get the coil in close to the magnets in that way with the current rotor design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vur1cqpq2-U

I ordered a scope which should be coming tomorrow.  I don't know how to use it, but I guess I need to learn as I am beginning to see the importance of it.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2022, 12:03:22 AM »
I have been looking into your links you graciously provided.  I want to make sure I understand this, as it seems important.

Image on left is the normal coil orientation.  Equal repel and attraction force both working against the rotor.

Image on the right, small amount of repel on both the approach and escape, but one BIG attraction spike right at dead center..

If I am viewing the correctly, it would seem my idea of the 2 repelling magnets may indeed be feasible still..  I would lose a little on the small repel force on the approach, but my stationary magnets can neutralize out the big attraction spike then ride the stationary magnet repel force + the snall escape push on the way out.

If this is correct, this would be phenomenal. 
 

Hi,  all I can say is the best to test this idea...   I am not aware of anyone reporting the setup based on the image by Naudin on the right side would be with even a low Lenz effect but this proves nothing.   

I include an edited picture where I copied the scope shot member partzman made on the coil  current belonging to his mentioned test with the shown coil and magnet orientations. Note what partzman wrote: 
    "The magnet moves left-to-right or right-to-left at a right angle to the center line of the induction coil."   so this is not a tangential induction with respect to the coil side as Naudin had it in the right hand side image.   
The coil shape you show in the test video (Reply #49 above) may not have a good shape,  a solenoid shape is preferred I think.   
 
 When doing such tests, do not use LED diodes or lamps as a load because they conduct in their forward direction so load the half of a full wave and also load the peak amplitudes of the waves.  Use a normal (non wirewound) resistor set say 10 , 22, 51, 100 Ohm etc  An incandescent lamp seems also good as long as you can measure its current and the voltage just feeding it because it is also a non linear load.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2022, 12:20:49 AM »
Folks,  regarding the zero force motor (ZFM) setup,  it does have back emf and Lenz effect in spite of  Bedini's claims...   Yaro Stanchak at energyscinceforum.com made extensive tests on ZFM setups and found efficiency range between 50% - 53% between electric input power and mechanical output power  .https://www.energyscienceforum.com/forum/alternative-energy/john-bedini/2603-zfm-advanced-explorations-part-ii/page4     
   https://www.energyscienceforum.com/forum/alternative-energy/john-bedini/72864-advanced-zfm-explorations-part-3/page2#post73321   
 

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2022, 02:02:34 AM »
Folks,  regarding the zero force motor (ZFM) setup,  it does have back emf and Lenz effect in spite of  Bedini's claims...   Yaro Stanchak at energyscinceforum.com made extensive tests on ZFM setups and found efficiency range between 50% - 53% between electric input power and mechanical output power  .https://www.energyscienceforum.com/forum/alternative-energy/john-bedini/2603-zfm-advanced-explorations-part-ii/page4     
   https://www.energyscienceforum.com/forum/alternative-energy/john-bedini/72864-advanced-zfm-explorations-part-3/page2#post73321   
 


Yeah, I kind of figured. I haven't built one yet, but tinman was not impressed with his build. Even though bedinis looks impressive, I kind of had other things I wanted to try first. All I know is that it does use the coils in this orientation. I'm not real familiar with it. Will be interesting to see some tests.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2022, 08:54:03 PM »
Got my scope in..  Don't really know how to use it yet, but I see squiggles!!!!  LOL

Here are my results holding an air coil against a rotor.

1. Same polarity Magnets on rotor Normal position coil..  Notice I have 1 N52 and 3 N45's in the rotor.  You can see every 4th wave is Bigger.
2. Alternating Polarity Magnets -Coil 90 degrees
2. Alternating Polarity Magnets -Coil standard orientation

Offline broli

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2022, 10:30:43 PM »
You should focus on your second design WITH a core. Saturating a core using the magnet perpendicular to the coil's field will make the core lose it's ability to amplify the coil's magnetic field. This collapse will inturn make the energy spike as the coil does not like the sudden change in flux due to the magnet saturating the core in the perpendicular direction. This spike in current will change the magnetic energy of the system due to (L*I^2)/2 (Energy of an inductor). Another way of seeing this is that L*I has to always remain constant, if L drops I will rise proportionally but since I has a squared dependency in the energy equation, you will gain energy.


I'm myself experimenting with something similar but using a toroid instead, the magnet moves over the toroid and saturating its core the coil will spike its current but this will not affect the magnet. However it might affect the force the magnet moves away at and this might were you pay the energy penalty.


TLDR: Saturate the core in perpendicular direction, gain more inductive energy as a result. The only question is will you pay for it in mechanical energy?

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2022, 11:05:20 PM »
You should focus on your second design WITH a core. Saturating a core using the magnet perpendicular to the coil's field will make the core lose it's ability to amplify the coil's magnetic field. This collapse will inturn make the energy spike as the coil does not like the sudden change in flux due to the magnet saturating the core in the perpendicular direction. This spike in current will change the magnetic energy of the system due to (L*I^2)/2 (Energy of an inductor). Another way of seeing this is that L*I has to always remain constant, if L drops I will rise proportionally but since I has a squared dependency in the energy equation, you will gain energy.


I'm myself experimenting with something similar but using a toroid instead, the magnet moves over the toroid and saturating its core the coil will spike its current but this will not affect the magnet. However it might affect the force the magnet moves away at and this might were you pay the energy penalty.


TLDR: Saturate the core in perpendicular direction, gain more inductive energy as a result. The only question is will you pay for it in mechanical energy?

Neat Stuff!  Thanks and I would like to follow your results.

I am just tinkering till I have a better understanding..  I am just stumped at the moment on something..

I have been watching dozens and dozens of videos of magnets passing coils with a Galvanometer in slow motion..  Trying to study and understand exactly what's happening and when - so I can dissect it to work with it instead of against it.

I believe the thought "Repel on approach, attract on exit"  is not correct in all scenarios.

View this carefully..  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAD_aHLrbFQ

Based on what I am seeing and looking at the scope waves- "I Think" The whole Repel on approach, attract on exit should only hold true when either changing directions of the stroke or changing polarities of the magnet that is going in 1 direction.. 

1.  Pass a bar magnet all the way through a coil..  .  It will indeed Repel on approach and Attract on Exit..  Bar magnet has 2 polarities which went through in 1 direction.

2. Push one polarity of that magnet half way into a coil then pull it out.  Indeed it will repel going in, and attract coming out.  We Changed Directions With 1 Polarity

3.  Pass one pole of a magnet past a coil in 1 direction all the way past it...  There was no change of direction or polarity flip.  The coil should repel equally throughout the pass..

#3 above is how our common Axial Flux generators work.  There is only 1 polarity passing a coil..  And no change of direction or polarity flip till we reach the ZERO LINE between magnets.  I can't see how this could possibly attract during magnet exit.

See the image attached.  The current is only flowing 1 direction from zero line to zero line during one magnet pass.  And that video i posted shows similar things of a coil + Galvanometer reactions.  A coil going into one leg of a horseshoe magnet all the way past the magnet pole only makes the needle move 1 way.. 

If I am right, why do we have drag when 1 magnet passes a coil in 1 direction?  Or perhaps I am wrong and just don't get it yet..  But I do think something else is happening other than the common explanation that it is repelling while entering and attracting while exiting.

I ordered a Galvanometer so I can test this for myself.  I want to experiment switching the coil at exact times, but I need to understand exactly how the current reacts to different coil orientations and fine a situation where there will be benefit switching a precise moment.

« Last Edit: April 23, 2022, 05:08:53 AM by floodrod »

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2022, 03:16:44 AM »
I have my full working theory I am going to test...  I am venturing to say the drag is coming from the "Brick Wall" at top dead center..

When collecting - the whole wave cancels out EXCPET passing dead center.  It's at dead center when the 2 repelling fields must meet and must overcome each other. 

Same concept as repelling 2 magnets and trying to use the repulsion to make it past another repelling field of equal strength as the first.  The only way it's possible is if you use momentum inserted from another source..  But in the case of a PM generator, it's even worse because there is no gain anywhere to use.  All the potential gain cancels out leaving you with a solid brick wall you must pass through with input power.  If you ever get 60-70% efficiency consider yourself lucky. 

If my "imaginary theory" is true-  it's good news because it should be beatable.  You would have to give up the greed and sacrifice somewhere between 51% and 55% of the cycle by only collecting AFTER the rotor passes dead center of the coil and disconnect the coils again at or before the zero line between magnets.  Sure you miss most the good juice, but in return, the generator speeds up when collecting.

My theory may be way off base- but it's the only way that makes sense to me and all the pieces fit (in my demented mind)  .. 

2 Images attached.  First is 1/2 wave showing where I predict the forces are in the cycle-  second showing when to collect and disconnect the coils.

1 last note-  magnet past iron / metal creates the same drag- just like magnet to magnet.    The attraction of the magnet to the core is not strong enough for the magnet to sail past the core and give it any additional power.  Iron Cores will just rob us of power so have no place in this design if this theory pans out.. 

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2022, 09:48:22 AM »

3.  Pass one pole of a magnet past a coil in 1 direction all the way past it...  There was no change of direction or polarity flip.  The coil should repel equally throughout the pass..

#3 above is how our common Axial Flux generators work.  There is only 1 polarity passing a coil..  And no change of direction or polarity flip till we reach the ZERO LINE between magnets.  I can't see how this could possibly attract during magnet exit.

See the image attached.  The current is only flowing 1 direction from zero line to zero line during one magnet pass.  And that video i posted shows similar things of a coil + Galvanometer reactions.  A coil going into one leg of a horseshoe magnet all the way past the magnet pole only makes the needle move 1 way.. 

If I am right, why do we have drag when 1 magnet passes a coil in 1 direction?  Or perhaps I am wrong and just don't get it yet..  But I do think something else is happening other than the common explanation that it is repelling while entering and attracting while exiting.


Okay, this one took me a bit to grasp also when I was trying to learn it, but I think I understand it myself now. For ease of explanation, lets assume all air core coil for what I am about to say.
Where you have above showing "coil is between magnets" is actually the magnet at TDC of the coils core or center of air core. Where you have as "brick wall" is actually the center of the copper turns on either side of the core. Let me explain.
 
Work your mind from the center of the coil outward in both directions.... If you are the magnet passing the coil perpendicular, the normal way we always do it, the dead center position of the coil is 0v on the scope. If you move from the center to the left you begin to see a voltage move higher giving you the voltage rise. Now, go back to the center again, and move towards the right. You will now see the voltage fall on the scope. Why? Think about what is causing it. The magnetic field interacts with the copper wire. The position of the magnet that causes the flux to cut the most turns of copper at onc time is your peak on the scope. The polarity changes when moving the magnet only one way also. This is simply because you may have wound the coil all in one direction, but from the perspective of the magnet, the wire is running upward on one side and downward on the other side. That is why you get the polarity flip. The wire has changed directions in the perspective of the magnet, even though the magnet has not.


Now, and iron core looks slightly different. But the dead center spot is still 0v. The difference you will see on the scope is simply a sharp change from peak to peak when passing the center. This is because the iron core simply draws the magnetic flux toward the center. You get a more confined magnetic field so the change in polarity at the center is much more direct. To me, I used to think the peak was the center of the coil. This is not true. The center MUST be zero because it is equally between two sets of copper turns, both running opposite directions, and the dead center is both sides cancelling each other out making it zero on the scope. This however is not the case of a parallel coil. I am referring to the traditional way we always use them.


Hope this helps. If I am off in this somehow, someone please correct me so I understand as well. Here is a really crappy quick sketch to try and show what I'm saying.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2022, 10:26:28 AM »
I need to play with it myself because it's been an interest I haven't gotten around to understanding fully yet. But my take on the parallel coil is that you still have Lenz but I'm not sure how much it would be reduced. The peak of the waveform is in the center because that is where the flux cuts the most turns of copper at once. It shows as one polarity because since you only use 1 side of the coil, the wire does not change directions from the perspective of the magnet. It is possible that more flux is concentrated in the center of the coil causing less Lenz drag, but there still will be some. Those copper turns each have a magnetic field rotating around them as well that is not inside the core. So as long as current flows, there will be that opposing field. The question is how much of course and is it less because more is concentrated in the center. But, let's also not forget, we are now only using half the coil. So half the energy as well. Very interesting stuff I want to learn more about.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Quad Reciprocator Motor Idea.
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2022, 04:38:50 PM »


Where you have above showing "coil is between magnets" is actually the magnet at TDC of the coils core or center of air core. Where you have as "brick wall" is actually the center of the copper turns on either side of the core. Let me explain.
 


This should be easy to prove .
Assuming we have 4 magnets and 1 coil (which I do) in your model, there should be 4 complete sine waves per revolution.  in mine, there should be 2 complete sine waves per rotation.  So all we have to do is mark one magnet so it shows on the scope and count the sinewaves.

So I added a magnet to only 1 pole of a 4 pole rotor.  So we can see the wave peak difference and know when the rotor completed 1 revolution.

@@@@  Notice the peak from the extra magnet on the top and bottom wave.  Much bigger peak on 1 side than the other. 

Captain- I am totally up for explanations and willing to listen to all viewpoints and view all related data.  Please do not take this as me being stubborn. I just need to see it for myself to confirm it.