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Author Topic: A theory and build inspired by Friedrich Lüling's magnet motor  (Read 5473 times)

Cadman

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The purpose of this thread is to explore a method of operation for a magnet motor based on my theory of how Friedrich Lüling's motor may have operated.
It is not an attempt to replicate it in detail or disparage anyone else's ideas or efforts.
Please, alternate theories are not acceptable in this thread and should be presented elsewhere.

Respectful, polite, questions, comments, suggestions and criticisms are welcome and encouraged. In other words, posts using common decency.
Any posts that are inappropriate or off topic will be removed.

--------------------------------------------------------

Flux redirection. Not a new concept. I'm sure many others have been there before now.

Judging from my own experience, a magnet motor should have a defined magnetic circuit.
By using such a circuit the flux can be controlled much the same way as current in an electric circuit.
The majority of the flux will follow the path of least resistance through the circuit.

The material composing the circuit will have a static reluctance (resistance) dictated by it’s length, cross section and permeability.
This reluctance can be altered using an air gap as a resistor, and using a variable air gap allows control of the circuit.

In the attached conceptual drawing there are two circuit paths for each magnet.
The first path is from a first magnet through a very small air gap, through the rotor to the opposite side air gap, through a second magnet
then returning through the frame or other iron member to the first magnet.

The second much shorter circuit is through an iron shunt contacting the same-side magnets on one or more faces other than the face closest to the rotor.

The second circuit draws the magnetic attraction away from the rotor, minimizing or eliminating reverse rotation forces. Neutralizing them, if you will.

To be continued:
Cadman
« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 05:32:05 PM by Ufopolitics »

Cadman

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Re: A theory and build inspired by Friedrich Lüling's magnet motor
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2022, 10:30:56 PM »
Several things to consider going forward.
What material could be used to make the iron rotor and return path? I have 4 choices.

Iron. Density of 7.874 g/cm3
Iron PLA - Density is about 1.85 g/cm3
IRON 100 - Hydrogen reduced, fine iron powder. Iron purity > 98%. Apparent Density is 2.41 g/cm3
SM 1001 ultra pure soft-magnetic iron powder. Iron purity > 98%. Apparent density is about 2.92 g/cm3

Typical iron ferrite has a density of about 4.85 g/cm3, but that is not available to me.

SM 1001 is better but more than twice the price of Iron 100 so that is out of the picture.

Lastly, I may be able to get the parts made from hot roll bar, plasma cut from work. Maybe.

Originally I intended to make a shell of iron PLA and fill it with Iron 100. But the density of that is 1/3 that of iron so the permeability is that much less.
On the other hand that should also make separating the switch from the magnet that much easier.
If I can figure out how to compress and bind the powder the density should increase. Heat sintering is out of the question.

So right now I think I’ll start with a plain PLA shell filled with Iron 100 and experiment with that.
If anyone has a suggestion for a better material or combination of materials please post your idea.

« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 05:33:22 PM by Ufopolitics »

citfta

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Re: A theory and build inspired by Friedrich Lüling's magnet motor
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2022, 08:06:49 PM »
Hi Cadman,


When I  first looked at your drawing it immediately came to my mind that your rotor looked like part of a cast iron drive pulley
like the ones that used to be used on a lot of machinery. 
If you could find one of the proper size you could cut away the extra spokes and part of the rim to make it like your drawing. 
You would have to be pretty accurate with your cutting in order to keep everything balanced. 
Or you might just do a little grinding to get things balanced after cutting it to shape. 
I like your idea.  When I have time I want to look into it myself.

Take care,
Carroll
« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 05:34:13 PM by Ufopolitics »

lota

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Re: A theory and build inspired by Friedrich Lüling's magnet motor
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2022, 08:43:52 AM »

Hello,
one could use iron oxide with epoxy. Black sand.
On the drawing is a diode.
Greeting
Lota

kajunbee

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Re: A theory and build inspired by Friedrich Lüling's magnet motor
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2022, 01:36:47 PM »
This post to see if pics sized correctly.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 05:36:48 PM by Ufopolitics »

kajunbee

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Re: A theory and build inspired by Friedrich Lüling's magnet motor
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2022, 01:52:50 PM »
Cadman if the pic is to large please delete.

Cadman

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Re: A theory and build inspired by Friedrich Lüling's magnet motor
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2022, 02:44:51 PM »
Thanks for the input and ideas guys.

Citfa, that’s a good idea. I actually have a couple of those, but unfortunately they are  3 and 5 spoke pulleys so won’t work for this. I’ll make a note of it and keep my eyes open for one.
Too bad we all don’t have our own foundries and machine shops. :)

Lota, I have used black sand with epoxy before but it’s magnetic attraction is in between iron PLA and the iron 100. At least the ones I cast were. Maybe I used too much epoxy?
It’s cheap though and may do alright for a build. I might cast a couple with a different binder and see how they do.

Kajunbee, the pic is alright for my screen but you should try to size for 1024 max width. Guilty of that myself.
BTW, earlier you mentioned leverage. Leverage is a factor used in this build in a couple of ways. You’ll see.

Regards to all,
Cadman


kajunbee

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Re: A theory and build inspired by Friedrich Lüling's magnet motor
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2022, 03:16:23 PM »
There’s always a trade off and I wasn’t seeing it at first.
There is more leverage near the center but there is also reduced velocity. So the rotor near the magnet will be in the sticky point for a longer duration.
Not sure if there’s a workaround for this or not. Maybe a smaller air gap between the two rotor arms. Not sure. Also since eddy current drag needs to be considered I was thinking a laminated steel rotor might work. But ideas are great until you see the price tag.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 05:37:32 PM by Ufopolitics »

Cadman

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Re: A theory and build inspired by Friedrich Lüling's magnet motor
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2022, 04:38:30 PM »
There’s always a trade off and I wasn’t seeing it at first. There is more leverage near the center but there is also reduced velocity. So the rotor near the magnet will be in the sticky point for a longer duration. Not sure if there’s a workaround for this or not. Maybe a smaller air gap between the two rotor arms. Not sure. Also since eddy current drag needs to be considered I was thinking a laminated steel rotor might work. But ideas are great until you see the price tag.

Yes, laminated electrical steel would be great but it's too expensive and difficult to get so it's out for now. Looking at your drawing it appears you have a magnet at the center of the rotor.
Just so everyone knows, there are no magnets on or in the rotor in this experiment. The rotor is all iron.


Cadman

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Re: A theory and build inspired by Friedrich Lüling's magnet motor
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2022, 04:41:12 PM »
More stuff has been delivered, almost ready to cast a rotor and assemble some test pieces.

You can see in the first drawings 2 magnet switches have to be physically moved.
Closing the switches isn’t a problem because the motor magnet’s natural attraction will power that.
But opening 2 at the same time is going to take a lot of force, even with a sliding top shunt on the magnets.

Kuling used air cylinders to operate the switching system but I really want to avoid that or any kind of electrical device if at all possible.
So, this experiment will have a mechanical roller cam system to open and close the switches at the proper time.

There is a big problem with that idea though, because the force needed to open the switches
will be greater than the motoring force of the rotor, and will probably break plastic parts too.
So in order for it to work some system has to be devised to increase the rotor force or decrease the force required for opening.

I see no way to increase the rotor’s relative power so the only alternative is to decrease the opening force. 
That doesn’t sound practical but the required force can be somewhat counter balanced with a mechanical spring system
to lessen the load on the rotor.

The drawback with that idea is the force curve of a magnet is exponential.
Off the shelf springs don’t fit the bill very well because their forces are linear and end up soaking up too much power at the wrong times.
The only solution that I could think of is to come up with a spring that has an exponential force curve similar to the motor magnets.
If the operating force can be evenly counter balanced through the entire switch movement then we are home free!

Last night a practical solution presented itself to me, one that anyone can make, and will be incorporated into the build if it works.
What can exactly counter a magnet’s exponential force curve?
Another magnet!

No secrets.

Regards

edit: Reading what was written it looks like I'm taking credit for the solution. Just the opposite, it's sarcasm.
All this time I've been trying to bull through the problem with springs and the solution has been staring me in the face.
I was just too focused on springs to see it.  :-[

« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 05:39:13 PM by Ufopolitics »

Tarsier_79

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Re: A theory and build inspired by Friedrich Lüling's magnet motor
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2022, 05:35:44 AM »
Gday, love the design. Thanks for sharing. I am considering a build myself, but more simple.

Just my personal belief in magnetic fields:
They are a field, like isobars on a map.
They do not exist as everyone draws them.
They exist as a gradient field from one pole to the other.
When you put iron filings in them, the filings like to arrange themselves
so they alligned with the greatest difference in the field across them.
This is similar to grabbing the end of a rod in a gravity field, it alligns itself to have the greatest potential weight difference
between the top and bottom. In magnetics I guess that is what you call flux.
This does not change (mostly) the way your theory of this design works,
and should attract around till the straight bar is most directly between the two greatest potentials.

Good luck everyone.

« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 05:40:27 PM by Ufopolitics »

kajunbee

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Re: A theory and build inspired by Friedrich Lüling's magnet motor
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2022, 03:33:45 PM »
Cadman I have some questions about some observations I made yesterday.
In the pic where ring magnets on smooth end of bolt it has some resistance to pulling magnets off.
When I slide magnets in the other direction when it nears thread it will meet some resistance again.
Once past this spot it will move relatively freely again until it nears the end.
But the amount of pull force to remove magnet from threaded end appears to be less than removing it from smooth end.
I’m only measuring this by feel but it seems to be less but by how much.
Let’s say for example it takes 10 lbs. of force to remove from smooth end.
And it only takes 8 lbs. to remove from threaded end. Is that missing 2 lbs.
the resistance it encountered when transitioning from the smooth part of bolt to the threaded part.
I’m speaking of magnetic resistance and not mechanical  friction between magnet and bolt.
I’m thinking yes but it’s difficult to say just by feel.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 05:41:47 PM by Ufopolitics »

Ufopolitics

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Re: A theory and build inspired by Friedrich Lüling's magnet motor
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2022, 05:14:21 PM »
Hello,
On the drawing is a diode.
Greeting
Lota


Hello Lota,


Take a look again at my cropped 4K frame attached from the original 35mm film (reduced to post it here) of same frame you have posted before.
You could look up whole image (and download it if you like) at: Semi Frames Folder 3
Where Semi loaded all these images, frame by frame of whole film...from his Github site ¨Secrets of Lüling¨


You could also see the whole film in LÜLING 4K


There is no Diode there
...it is just a measurement number between two arrows to define a distance in a mechanical CAD Plan.




Cheers




Ufopolitics

Cadman

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Re: A theory and build inspired by Friedrich Lüling's magnet motor
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2022, 08:16:26 PM »
Cadman I have some questions about some observations I made yesterday.
In the pic where ring magnets on smooth end of bolt it has some resistance to pulling magnets off.
When I slide magnets in the other direction when it nears thread it will meet some resistance again.
Once past this spot it will move relatively freely again until it nears the end.
But the amount of pull force to remove magnet from threaded end appears to be less than removing it from smooth end.
I’m only measuring this by feel but it seems to be less but by how much.
Let’s say for example it takes 10 lbs. of force to remove from smooth end.
And it only takes 8 lbs. to remove from threaded end. Is that missing 2 lbs.
the resistance it encountered when transitioning from the smooth part of bolt to the threaded part.
I’m speaking of magnetic resistance and not mechanical  friction between magnet and bolt.
I’m thinking yes but it’s difficult to say just by feel.

Difficult to say for sure since I don’t have any experiment to draw from. Best guess is it’s due to the difference in mass between the threaded and solid areas of the bolt, or the increased space in the threads around the solid core and magnets at that end, or both.
It would be interesting to see the field patterns with some viewing film.


lota

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Re: A theory and build inspired by Friedrich Lüling's magnet motor
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2022, 10:32:39 AM »
Hi Ufopolitik,[/size]

Thank you this is a good quality. You're right it's just a number.
Greeting
Lota