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Author Topic: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity  (Read 6433 times)

Offline floodrod

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Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« on: March 31, 2022, 11:23:29 PM »
I have the first prototype running of an Adams style motor with some differences.

-  6 alternating pole 40mm magnets
- 6 iron core coils.  3 are drivers, 3 are collectors
- Switching output coils then rectifying
- Attempting to collect flyback on the driver coils (not sure if it's working)

The 3 driver coils are using a latching hall sensor and flipping polarity 3 times per revolution.

Here is a video of it running with some detailed info.  Please forgive the mess..  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkrV9vcR6g

I am attempting to use Gyulasun's circuit he posted here https://overunity.com/4679/free-energy-using-magnets/msg97834/#msg97834  to collect flyback on the pole switching drivers.  But it kept slowing the motor, so I had to run it through another bridge rectifier after it.. (i probably have something wrong here)

I currently do NOT see any overunity..  But by measuring battery voltage while running,  it has LOTS of power and the battery is not running down much..

To switch the output coils, I tried reed switches but I blew them up within seconds.  I am sure my amperage is exceeding their capacity.  So I went for a solid state relay for now.

I wanted to post it to see of any recommendations come my way..  I know it can use lots of tweaks..  Thanks


Offline captainpecan

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2022, 01:11:21 AM »
Nice build. Looks like you are using a good amount of current. Have you done any measurements of the current? Also, it would be good to know how much drawing off of those coils is bogging things down. Runs pretty strong so far. Nice work.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2022, 04:19:49 PM »
Nice build. Looks like you are using a good amount of current. Have you done any measurements of the current? Also, it would be good to know how much drawing off of those coils is bogging things down. Runs pretty strong so far. Nice work.

Somewhere about 3 amps (based on what I seen it pull when hooked to my variable power supply).  I will get more data soon..

Regarding flyback capture with switching polarity driver coils--   I tried the circuit below left, but hit problems.  So now I am using the circuit on the right..  I would really like to pump the flyback into the drive battery.   My questions are:

1. Will the circuit on the right work?
2.  Is using an O-scope the only way to verify it's working?  I would assume the spikes are too quick for a multimeter to catch.  ?

Thanks!

Offline synchro1

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2022, 07:46:36 PM »
Thane Hiens has a small resistor in series with a Capacitor in parallel that turns the output coils into LCR oscillators. When they are ringing while the rotor is above the critical RPM, they accelerate the rotor and generate power with no drag and reduction in input. The coil impedence at high "Q" or while ringing prevents any input current from entering. This ringing advances the induced pole and propels the rotor above critical RPM.

Thane connects an Induction motor to power the rotor to critical RPM. Your super powerful pulse motor is far superior to the clumsy hybrid setup on Thane's test bench! You have no problem reaching the critical RPM with the pulse motor alone.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2022, 11:54:56 PM »
Hi floodrod,

Back then I drew the circuit with switching symbols for a member so that he could understand the principle. The switch symbols represented a H-bridge but the two separate puffer capacitors were not a good solution for utilizing the captured DC voltages.

IF your present H-bridge is built from MOSFETs, then the body diodes in each 4 of them constitute a full wave diode bridge whose AC input is 'hard wired' to the H-bridge output i.e. across the coils to be switched and DC output of the diode bridge is 'hard wired' to the + and - points of the input supply rail feeding the H-bridge, you surely know these. I mention this because this inherent diode bridge across the input coils steers the flyback spikes to the supply rails and the battery immediately limits their amplitude to its own output level. The flyback current surely go back to the battery, to "charge" it in such scenario  but the question is whether there is enough idle time in-between the motor ON currents to receive the flyback current pulses coming to "charge". How a battery can be discharged and charged alternately within quasi milliseconds or less, this is a good question but eventually the resulting input current may get reduced by the amount of the flyback current.
 
You can separate the input supply voltage from the recovered flyback voltage by a diode inserted into say the incoming positive supply rail to pass through any motor input current but block the flyback spikes towards the input supply. And to help store the flyback spikes, an electrolytic capacitor can be connected directly across the H-bridge supply rail (after the series diode). In your schema, cut the wire between the battery+ and the electrolytic cap+ and connect them with a 5A or heftier diode, (anode goes to battery+). The spikes will raise the voltage across this capacitor above the input supply rail but the actual voltage level will fluctuate across this capacitor depending on the ON and OFF motor times. There can be setups where such diode does not do anything good, it means then it is not needed... 

So on your 1st question: yes the circuit should collect the flyback from the 3 drive coils as it is connected (assuming your H-bridge has 4 MOSFETs) and
on your 2nd question: inserting the series diode and checking the DC voltage level across the capacitor may indicate this, especially using an oscilloscope for this. If your arduino has the feature for adjusting the duty cycle of the control pulses to the input of the H-bridge, then try to reduce it to let have more OFF time vs the ON time, thus the voltage should increase across the capacitor (when the series diode is there, that is).

I assume your 3 collector coils feed (charge) the battery via the full wave bridge and this circuit is not shown in your above schematic (so the big capacitor across the DC output of this diode bridge you show in the video is not the one indicated in the schema), is this so?

How did you adjust the control of the solid state relay to switch it on at a best moment? I mean what did you consider for that?  8)
You can check the output current of the 3 collector coils after the diode  bridge and its capacitor to have an idea on how much it helps reduce motor currrent (besides the flyback current) to the 3 drive coils?

Edit: I think I misunderstood your schematic. So the series diode should be inserted to the other side of the battery+ whiere the wire goes towards the H-bridge+.  And the diode bridge shown in the schematic receives the AC voltage coming from the 3 collector coils but the solid state relay circuit is not shown.  Right?

Gyula

Offline floodrod

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2022, 12:47:50 AM »
Thanks for the great replies..

I do think the flyback circuit is working.  When I disconnect the cap from the battery / driver coils, at times I can see 45+ volts in the cap with the multimeter (and the supply is only putting 12 volts in) sometimes.  But when it's all hooked up and working, the cap stays at the battery voltage.  Even when I disconnect the cap only from the battery- the cap stays at battery nominal voltage, which I am guessing is from reverse leakage through the fwbr?   but one thing I confirmed many times now is that without the flyback circuit hooked up, the battery goes from 12V to 9 volts in under 5 minutes..  With the flyback circuit hooked up, the motor runs and the battery stays at 12V for a long time.  So I conclude it must be doing something..  I will experiment later with your diode placement recommendation.  Thanks for that..

That big blue Cap in the video is the only cap I am using currently for both driver and collector circuits.  I do not have much happening in the collector circuit as of now. Basically rectifying it and connecting the DC to the same cap.  Pic attached.. But I can also say for certain, the collector coils do add a good degree of drag when hooked up.

I have a few big heavy duty reed switches, I tried shorting the collector coils but not really sure how that part works yet.  Am I shorting one AC lead before the fwbr? I figure I shouldn't short the DC because I think doing so would short the cap.   I might be totally off base here on this part.  FYI- since I got the reed switches in- I took out the SSL as of now. 

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2022, 09:37:15 AM »
At 3 amps, it's pretty power hungry. The original adams was a bit power hungry as well though. But that is a pretty good chunk or power to try and make up with the Gen coils even though technically all of your coils are gen coils the way you have it. You are getting lenz drag from all of them but still much rpm is left to harvest from. Is your pulse width pretty wide on purpose to gain more speed possibly? I'm just curious, because it's clear you can crank the speed out and it can be powerful. But at what cost? I'm just curious how far you can increase that efficiency. You are at the fun stage of the project now. And the most frustrating tweaking stuff!!! This is where I like to cut power down to the very minimum that continues to run, and step it up slowly as I tweak everything. The adams motor I built many years ago I actually found that it was more efficient to me, not to treat the run coils as Gen coils. When I removed the bridge from it and worked to only collect the flyback, my current dropped, my rpms increased, and my Gen coils appeared to be doing better as well simply because they were being fed higher rpm. I felt in my motor, the added Lenz drag from pulling energy off my run coils hurt more than helped overall efficiency. Yours may be totally different. Just sharing my experience from past.  Please keep sharing. Love to see it.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2022, 12:48:15 PM »
last night I switched around the coil config and made it into the standard 2 driver setup to compare.  And my RPM and power went through the roof!  I was wondering why, so I ohm'd out the coil sets and I think I have a shorted coil... Now the problem-child is in the collector coils. So I will have to take it apart and inspect closely.

Then I reduced the pulse width by tuning in 2 non-latching hall sensors.  Here is a video of the on / off cycles.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIWZ4H1-j5I

Yes, you are right.  it is a power hungry beast..  With all the iron in the cores combined with the thick coil wire- I don't have much of a choice.  When I reach minimum cut-in voltage for the H-bridge-  the amps are already way up there.   And I read a post by Stefan who said when OU is the goal, size matters.  It made sense to me, with all the losses from friction / heat / etc, I figure the bigger and stronger it is, the less consequential those losses will be in the overall picture. And in most my past motors, the biggest problem was always lack of torque.  I don't think this motor here is lacking torque now.

After getting this shorted-coil sorted out, I fear my generator coils will not produce enough voltage to charge the battery.  The collector coil wires are just too thick..  But I guess we will see how far I get :)


Offline synchro1

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2022, 02:31:24 PM »
Wiring the generator coils in series will multiply the voltage. Interrupted current can easily generate hundreds of volts. Just the opposite from what you're anticipating. A high voltage Capacitor in parallel with the charge battery is needed to regulate the voltage down.

Shorting the output coils at TDC will increase the power to the rotor. Controling the pole reversal causes the drag to propel the rotor rather than slow it down. This will result in increased acceleration and higher charging!

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2022, 02:48:25 PM »

...  But when it's all hooked up and working, the cap stays at the battery voltage. 
It is okay due to the direct cap-battery connection. And the battery simply "swallows up" the huge spikes and strictly limits to its own voltage level - every battery an excellent voltage stabilizer.

Quote
Even when I disconnect the cap only from the battery- the cap stays at battery nominal voltage, which I am guessing is from reverse leakage through the fwbr? 
Well, in this case the cap is still connected to the battery via the driver coils and the H-bridge, this is the explanation. With a voltmeter in say max 20 V measurement range you could see a voltage difference representing the diodes forward voltage drops (2x 0.7V for Si diodes).

Quote
But I can also say for certain, the collector coils do add a good degree of drag when hooked up.

Yes, this is normal generator Lenz drag as captainpecan also wrote.

Quote
I tried shorting the collector coils but not really sure how that part works yet.  Am I shorting one AC lead before the fwbr?

I am not fully sure how you mean shorting? In the video with the solid state relay you inserted it in series with the 3 collector coils before one of the full wave bridge AC inputs as an on/off switch or I misunderstood ?  There is coil shorting where a controllod switch is connected across a coil (or across coils which are in series connection) and the switch is ON at say the voltage peaks induced in the coil. Then a full wave bridge across the coil can direct the huge spike to a capacitor.  But this may improve the collapsing field energy capture efficiency but no extra energy production I am afraid. 

Regarding your setup with the transformer E cores, you could increase torque by utilizing the two outer prongs of the E cores which are presently "unused" if I see it correctly.
I mean to install two additional rotor magnets for each E core which move over the outer prongs of the E core like the 40 mm magnets over the center legs. Presently these outer prongs have opposite magnetic poles with respect to their center pole whenever such electromagnet is ON by its driver coil. I made a small drawing and indicated a moment when the input current creates an N pole in the top center leg and of course the outer two legs should have S poles then.  You could strengthten these S poles by two additional coils wound onto the outer legs as I indicated (they make the N pole in the center also stronger of course). So you could print another rotor structure for the rotor magnets to accomododate the additional magnets besides the presently used ones.
The additional small coils could be connected in series with the main drive coils of course and 40-50 turns would be already enough for each such additional coil. 
Even if you would not have these extra 12 coils, the additional extra rotor magnets (also 12 in number) would increase torque already. Just a suggestion. 


Quote
I fear my generator coils will not produce enough voltage to charge the battery.  The collector coil wires are just too thick.. 
It is good that generator coils have low DC resistance. With the series connections of the gen coils as synchro1 also say you may reach the needed voltage (and with the additional magnets?)

Gyula



Offline synchro1

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2022, 03:48:35 PM »
Thane's ReGenX coils have a tiny capacitor in parallel with the winding. We can control the timing of the Lenz pole reversal with a Reed switch or the inclusion of the Capacitor. The calculated resonance of the LC tank delays magnetic pole appearance because of this hysterisis loop. The Capacitor farad and coil inductance values determine the moment of maximum impedence. The mirror pole cannot form while the cap charge has the coil in resonance. Thane failed to get any patents awarded for this design, so it is free to use. Your motor will be the highest state of the art if you succeed.

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2022, 04:27:27 PM »
 ::)   https://overunity.com/19078/99-5-efficient-electric-motor/msg565245/#new   

                                              Reply #3
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=25&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19900215&CC=DE&NR=3826970A1&KC=A1#


https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=26&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19821007&CC=DE&NR=3039176A1&KC=A1#


https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=27&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19810723&CC=DE&NR=3002327A1&KC=A1#



                                                                          and

                                        Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
                                       ------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                          =

                                                          Running Adams Motor

                                                                    -
                                      6 X independent circuits - poles with Alternating Polarity
                                                           per wheel/rotor

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2022, 08:15:37 PM »
Thinking about your concern for how power hungry your motor is at the moment. Here is something to consider, and something I am currently working on with my own motor design...

I'm not saying this is your answer by any means. Just adding a little food for thought if you begin changing coils a bit...

Sometimes it helps me step all the way back to the basics... Talking about the run coils... There are 3 ways to increase the magnetic field that they produce from each pulse that we are aware of immediately.
1. increase the number of turns
2. increase the amount of current
3. add an iron core
Now, we also want to keep resistance as low as possible. So finding that golden ratio here that matches each particular motor can be difficult.
Consider this. You already have the iron core. You also have the higher current. You really only have more turns to add to the coil to help any more here. Unless of course you use tank circuits and other manipulations, but I'm only talking about the very simple principles here.
I am going exactly opposite with my motor design currently. I am using very high number of turns from very small wire guage just to see the effect of doing exactly opposite. In my coils I have 2600 turns of 30awg in each coil. That of course has increased my resistance quite a bit per coil. And what I found is that I am get extremely efficient run, but much lower rpm and torque. I am getting over 500 rpm for less than 1/2watt of power. It runs on only about 14ma which is fantastic, but I have to push a much higher voltage to get there due to the high resistance of the wire. I am on the other extreme of the scale from where you are. There is a happy middle in there for each of our designs. From my experience, it looks to me like if you wanted to make a coil adjustment, your efficiency will go up if you use smaller wire. Your current draw will go down and the number of turns goes up. You will be making a trade cutting current while still trying to maintain as much torque as possible. Where is the happy median? Maybe just stepping up a few guages of wire might do you a lot of good without going to far with it and increasing your resistance to much like I have done. Also, the saturation point of your cores is something to think about as well. To thick of cores could also be very power hungry as well. With 3 amps cranking through there, that is probably not your issue here. And since you are using transformer cores, may not be an option to change much here anyway. But may be something to think about as you move forward. Somebody also mentioned, that you are not using the outer sides of your cores either. That is also a very valid point. That's just unused power laying there for the taking. But everything is of course a work in progress.
Now of course, our goals are probably completely different as well and makes a huge difference. In my design, I do not need high rpms. I want efficiency and to pull all of my power off the backend through gen coils. You on the other hand may be hunting for a much stronger torque than me, which would require much more current than mine does. Just all food for thought. I love the Adams motor design, but I quickly found myself drifting in my own directions and moved to air cored before I moved on to something else entirely. I found my air cored adams was more efficient but of course not as impressive. There always seems to be a trade off in every design. I'll keep changing and adapting like we all do.
Sorry for all my rant. Just sharing the part of my own experiments I'm currently working on that maybe you can learn from my mistakes and keep in mind.

An after thought... I'm not sure what kind of transformers you used for your coils. But do you happen to have some secondaries you could swap in on your cores to see what the higher gage wire would perform like? Just for an easy way to test out the side of the wire thickness scale?

Offline floodrod

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2022, 12:47:09 AM »
Thanks..  Tinkering with adding magnets and adding windings on the E legs is certainly a possibility to check out.    As far as shorting the generator coils, I tried it both ways.  Shorting and disconnecting an AC lead.  I will have to mess with this again to get a better idea what's happening with that part.  Or if it's even worth doing.

Captain-  In the past-  I did wind 2 bobbins for these coils in 28 gauge to test.  Each coil takes about 1/2 pound of wire..  I can mess with these ideas in the future- but first I want to see what I can do about the drag (if anything)

So I took it apart and I found the short and verified my 4 generator coils DO reach 15+ volts, enough to charge the battery!  And when I hook it all up and run it, Lenz Law is absolutely destroying me (as we can expect)..

I took a video of the motor Loaded,  then Unloaded, then Loaded again..  You can see how the RPM's go wild unloaded, then SLOW majorly when hooked up.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sh8ZWH1l1I 

I guess I just found the same roadblock that many before me have faced.  There will be no OU unless Lenz Law can be bypassed / lessened / reversed / .