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Author Topic: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity  (Read 4698 times)

Offline synchro1

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2022, 06:31:01 PM »
Woopy has 2 Hall effect transistors and 2 mosfets driven by a 9 volt battery connected to the positive and negative electrodes of the output coil. It takes a small amount of primary input power to run the shorted coil, but after it's shorted you can load the coil with no further losses.

These components can run multiple coils in series as Lidmotor demonstrated. The circuit does everything Thane Heins's delivers.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2022, 09:35:39 PM »
OK so I got some positive results today and repeatable!  Double checked at least a dozen times and got videos of it if needed...

Bucking diversion coils, so far I up to 19.22% increased efficiency..

When using the diversion coils, BOTH the Input and Output wattage drop...  But the INPUT DROPS more than the Output...

Unloaded=  motor takes 13 watts. No output
Loaded standard series generator-  34 watts input /  12 watts output.  A loss of 22 watts
Loaded with 2 coils bucking-   28.16 watts input  /  8.63 watts output.  A loss of 19.53 Watts
Loaded with 4 Coils Bucking-  24 watts input / 6.23 Output.  A loss of 17.77 Watts

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #62 on: April 07, 2022, 11:12:16 PM »
Woopy has 2 Hall effect transistors and 2 mosfets driven by a 9 volt battery connected to the positive and negative electrodes of the output coil. It takes a small amount of primary input power to run the shorted coil, but after it's shorted you can load the coil with no further losses.

These components can run multiple coils in series as Lidmotor demonstrated. The circuit does everything Thane Heins's delivers.
And that actually is a very good explanation of the effect he was using. Seeing lidmotor work with it helps it too. We all know he breaks it down to reality whatever it is. I'll look into this a bit more when I can. Thanks.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2022, 11:19:23 PM »
OK so I got some positive results today and repeatable!  Double checked at least a dozen times and got videos of it if needed...

Bucking diversion coils, so far I up to 19.22% increased efficiency..

When using the diversion coils, BOTH the Input and Output wattage drop...  But the INPUT DROPS more than the Output...

Unloaded=  motor takes 13 watts. No output
Loaded standard series generator-  34 watts input /  12 watts output.  A loss of 22 watts
Loaded with 2 coils bucking-   28.16 watts input  /  8.63 watts output.  A loss of 19.53 Watts
Loaded with 4 Coils Bucking-  24 watts input / 6.23 Output.  A loss of 17.77 Watts


Great stuff. Increased efficiency is moving in the right direction for sure. I haven't had a chance to read everything from what you posted. A lot of driving today for bussiness.. I'll get caught up later. I will be able to get more done on my rotors and coils tonight. Hopefully I'll be built back up with my next design in a couple days and can start working some of these tests as well with my high turn coils. Can't wait. It is good finding others work that is related. I hadn't found any.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #64 on: April 08, 2022, 08:54:11 AM »
Look at what Lidmotor suceeded at here. He has his generator coils wired in parallel wth his driver coils as Whoppy shows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLRqM0nDT_M


I'm kind of wondering if the effect shown by lidmotor and woopy is a little easier to explain. I could be wrong, but here is what I see could be happening. The discussion is that lamps are being lit, without bogging down the rotor or drawing any more current. Now consider this. Woopy is using a 9v battery to "ring" that coil. After he shorts the coil using the 9v battery in this manor, is when he can run the lamps for seemingly free without loading the rotor. Okay, first thing, to me, those LEDs lighting up are not requiring hardly any energy because they are being lit by the collapsing field of course. The whole Joule Thief concept we all know about. When he disconnects the cap, they go out because the field is no longer collapsing because the coil is no longer ringing. The rotor is not slowing down because the leds are not lighting from the field made from the magnets drag on the coil. The magnets are no longer interacting with the coil anymore because with the coil ringing, the core is saturated. A magnet passes right by a saturated core and is not slowed down because there is no interaction. So if you break it down, you have two parts. He is ringing a coil with a cap and 9v battery making LEDs light off of the collapsing field. Thats really just a Joule Thief. And you have rotor that does not see the core as it passes by because it is saturated. Those 2 conditions together explain exactly what is going on I think. Then when he disconnects the 9v battery, the current draw drops in the main circuit. So everything is being paid for to ring that coil. And all he is showing that he gets for it is lighting LEDS off of a collapsing field which we can do without all that set up already for nearly no current.
Just my observations. I completely believe there may be something there. But so far, it looks explainable to me. At least THAT test does that woopy showed. Did I miss something maybe?

Offline floodrod

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #65 on: April 08, 2022, 01:46:56 PM »

I'm kind of wondering if the effect shown by lidmotor and woopy is a little easier to explain. I could be wrong, but here is what I see could be happening. The discussion is that lamps are being lit, without bogging down the rotor or drawing any more current. Now consider this. Woopy is using a 9v battery to "ring" that coil. After he shorts the coil using the 9v battery in this manor, is when he can run the lamps for seemingly free without loading the rotor. Okay, first thing, to me, those LEDs lighting up are not requiring hardly any energy because they are being lit by the collapsing field of course. The whole Joule Thief concept we all know about. When he disconnects the cap, they go out because the field is no longer collapsing because the coil is no longer ringing. The rotor is not slowing down because the leds are not lighting from the field made from the magnets drag on the coil. The magnets are no longer interacting with the coil anymore because with the coil ringing, the core is saturated. A magnet passes right by a saturated core and is not slowed down because there is no interaction. So if you break it down, you have two parts. He is ringing a coil with a cap and 9v battery making LEDs light off of the collapsing field. Thats really just a Joule Thief. And you have rotor that does not see the core as it passes by because it is saturated. Those 2 conditions together explain exactly what is going on I think. Then when he disconnects the 9v battery, the current draw drops in the main circuit. So everything is being paid for to ring that coil. And all he is showing that he gets for it is lighting LEDS off of a collapsing field which we can do without all that set up already for nearly no current.
Just my observations. I completely believe there may be something there. But so far, it looks explainable to me. At least THAT test does that woopy showed. Did I miss something maybe?

Good thought pattern!

I tried shorting / and switching the generator coils several ways.  Heavy duty reed switches, Mosfets, relays, both manual aligning and timing with hall sensors etc. I have not seen any results to suggest it has any real benefit.

Can someone please post a video demonstrating this principle which shows Watts In / Watts Out with a decent load that draws real usable amperage (not LED's). without the inclusion of an "additional power source".

I suspect as captain said-  this method may work as a joule thief allowing us to extract more power than we would otherwise, But I need proof actual real power can be obtained with this idea.

EDIT-  Oh and no videos with music background or hot glue guns. LOL

Thanks

Online ramset

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #66 on: April 08, 2022, 06:58:25 PM »
Sirs
Edit ,was on the road before when posting
@ Attention to Floodrod and captainpecan

I did give Luc ( gotoluc ) a call today on some previous discussion you had been musing over here,
He sent this link

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wAYsAN5QPnA&feature=youtu.be


He had done some simple testing ( vid above ) years back ( 2009 ?)  , his only comment today was “attraction supplied More torque” in his above test ( he was testing for a motor application).


You fellows are a breath of fresh air to the open source builders community!
BTW , Luc still hunts the elusive FE beast …(as most here also hunt …


Shared with respect and gratitude
Chet K
Edit to also add
Ps,
Also have actual testing of coil shorting “test videos “
To post from members here ( itsu and Verpies , Grumage and others)
*I do think Luc has also tested this “coil shorting “ ( will check?….

Here starting at post 1675 itsu had series on coil shorting measurements


https://overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/msg361569/#msg361569
Itsu has perhaps 10  coil shorting videos  ( shortening?) on his you tube …under itsusable
Coil shorting ( might have written “shortening” ?)


( thanks to itsu!!)
Here from member Grum
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7gM_3Ji4IMg


These things are shared only as examples,not to imply any negative… there could obviously be possibilities from Alternative methods ( to achieve OU ?)

To note
One comment itsu felt was an accurate summary from his coil shorting experiments ,


Quote from a you tube comment on his videos,
“”

I would say that the Wattage does not change, because what you loose by shortening you get back in the spike


so you can short the coil, but the bemf pulse it creates (which suppose to be the OU part) just fills the gap created with the shortening “”
End quote


« Last Edit: April 08, 2022, 11:34:17 PM by ramset »

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #67 on: April 09, 2022, 01:31:27 AM »
@ramset
I appreciate forwarding this info. You never know where that little nugget that triggers a new idea will come from. Also, it's funny you posted that video from luc. I literally was stalking some of his stuff last week and that particular video made me decide to completely switch my own pulse motor design. I gave every attempt I could at testing repulsion. The attraction is just simply stronger. Hands down. I see others say it over and over as well. I gave it my do diligence, was time to move forward again.
Thanks for the kind words as well. It's refreshing to see others who still appreciate the process.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #68 on: April 09, 2022, 04:23:56 AM »
Thanks Ramset....   I watched the first video of the electromagnets attracting / repelling.  My initial evaluation of that one is the iron core is probably the variable that is causing the majority of those results.  Although I do have a hunch there is something special about attraction forces that are stronger than repel, I think those special forces are amplified by the core.

As an explanation,  I can set an electromagnet to repel a permanent magnet, but even in repel mode, the permanent magnet will still stick to the center of the core if the electromagnet is brought close enough.  I feel decent repel force if I keep the permanent magnet away from the core, but when I bring it in close, the core to magnet attraction overrides the repulsion.  I'd be willing to bet the results would be much closer if an air core coil was used.

I am glad you posted this because the last few days I have been debating if I should change my motor to all air core coils and lose the iron.  I question if the iron is even doing any good?

I am going to babble here a bit- but I think it's justified.

I am starting to think that perhaps an air core coil setup may be more efficient (especially with a pulse motor).  But it will probably be less powerful..  With an air coil setup, we lose the cogging problem, and momentum that we build will not be bogged down as easy when we cut power between pulses because the rotor magnets will not have to get past the attraction to the iron.  We could probably pulse it with less duty time because no iron means no attraction to the same coil after we give it the pulse.  Also Lenz Forces will be drastically reduced.

I do see the benefit in iron cores though.  The electromagnet field is definitely stronger and we can also use the attraction to the core for our advantage.  But another problem is the power it takes to repel a permanent magnet if the coil has an iron core is much greater than just an air coil because we need to pump that coil very hard to overcome the core attraction. 

My last point in this jargon speech is to point out how Iron Core Coils will Link with Magnet Sizes.  Basically what I am saying is increasing permanent magnet strength / sizes while using iron cores will not increase efficiency, just increase overall output along with input respectably because the stronger the rotor magnets are, the stronger attraction they have to the core. So any advantage in efficiency is cancelled out.  But with air cores,  the stronger the magnets, the more efficient the motor should be because we are eliminating the iron which governs the whole process. 

I am starting to think more and more that iron cores are good for beastly motors who need much torque to work big loads.  But they will require big input power.  And Air Coils would probably be more efficient overall for things like hunting for OU, even though the output would be less.

Thanks again for all the links. I will review them in detail.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #69 on: April 09, 2022, 05:35:17 AM »
I am going to test my theory and go BIG with it. I am printing out another 6 pole rotor.  For a total of (12) 40mmx20mm neos.  Thousands of pounds of pull force combined. I will sandwich 6 air coils between the 2 rotors.  And if the results are promising, I can always add more air core generator coils on top and bottom of the magnet-sandwich.

No iron will be used.  Just max out the permanent magnet force and use a configuration that I feel is less likely to link magnet strength with generated drag and resistance.  As I see it, a theory is just a theory if one does not test it properly.. 

It will take me time to redesign and print all this- but it's underway..

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #70 on: April 09, 2022, 06:01:49 AM »
And that was what I did with my Adams motor build many years ago. I moved to air core. I did find it was more efficient. But there was a very noticeable amount of torque change and rpm. The power input was way different as well. But, not expecting to do strong torque work with it, the change really helped me in my build. Certainly worth learning from. But, with my current pulse motor design, a metal core is absolutely necessary for the hidden permanent magnet core design I am testing. I must say, it was very coggy. Then I made a flywheel. No kidding, it would spin for a very log time with just a push and not being powered simply by letting the flywheel carry that momentum through the cog spots. So, although I tend to believe just like you with the advantages and disadvantages of iron core, I need more understanding of them.
A lesson I learned with my Adams motor was that at least with my build, I found it much less efficient trying to draw energy off of the drive coils other than the flyback. Just having a bridge after your coils, you are generating both inward, and outward. Lenz drag both sides. I rigged a 2nd reed switch making it an open coil the entire time between the bridge and coil except for during the power pulse and just a hair past it to collect the flyback. Lens dropped massively. I then worked on pulling more off more collector coils. To me it just seemed to work better letting each half do their own job. At least on my build.
With my new build, I am making my generator coils air core, but on a plastic bushing I can easily slide in a core and test that way as well for each one. Voltage is harder to get from air core, but won't be an issue for me woth 30awg wire. There are many odd tests I want to try from things we discussed here. That 3D printer of yours sure would be handy... lol.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #71 on: April 09, 2022, 05:59:20 PM »
And that was what I did with my Adams motor build many years ago. I moved to air core. I did find it was more efficient. But there was a very noticeable amount of torque change and rpm. The power input was way different as well. But, not expecting to do strong torque work with it, the change really helped me in my build. Certainly worth learning from. But, with my current pulse motor design, a metal core is absolutely necessary for the hidden permanent magnet core design I am testing. I must say, it was very coggy. Then I made a flywheel. No kidding, it would spin for a very log time with just a push and not being powered simply by letting the flywheel carry that momentum through the cog spots. So, although I tend to believe just like you with the advantages and disadvantages of iron core, I need more understanding of them.
A lesson I learned with my Adams motor was that at least with my build, I found it much less efficient trying to draw energy off of the drive coils other than the flyback. Just having a bridge after your coils, you are generating both inward, and outward. Lenz drag both sides. I rigged a 2nd reed switch making it an open coil the entire time between the bridge and coil except for during the power pulse and just a hair past it to collect the flyback. Lens dropped massively. I then worked on pulling more off more collector coils. To me it just seemed to work better letting each half do their own job. At least on my build.
With my new build, I am making my generator coils air core, but on a plastic bushing I can easily slide in a core and test that way as well for each one. Voltage is harder to get from air core, but won't be an issue for me woth 30awg wire. There are many odd tests I want to try from things we discussed here. That 3D printer of yours sure would be handy... lol.

Very cool..  I have thought about a magnet core many times, but I keep getting stuck on the fact that the polarity of the PM core will not change and always be orientated one way.  How do you plan to make that work?  Will your passing magnet rotor all be the same polarity magnets? Do you plan to neutralize one pole of the PM inside the coil when you do not want attraction? I am interested to see how you work this. 

I am building my stator now.  It's a little awkward because the stator will be in the middle of 2 rotors so I can not support the coils from only one end. It needs to be equally flat on both sides.  So for the first run, I am sandwiching my coils between 2 pieces of plexiglass.  My magnet to coil gap will be a bit further than I would like, but if the results are good and this design ends up permanent, I can always set the coils in epoxy permanently and close that gap.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #72 on: April 09, 2022, 06:45:45 PM »
I've got quite a bit of my learning process in coming up with this design on my other thread. I'll be adding more real soon as the build progresses. Just got my rotor cut this morning and working on other stuff for the new build this weekend. I've got a couple more of the special coils to wind and hopefully I cam be back up and running quick. Then I'll be doing all the tests on the Gen coil side. Still got a lot of winding to do there.
Here is my thread I discussed this build in and will continue to. https://overunity.com/19040/permanent-magnet-assisted-motor-coil-designs/

But, for a quick explanation. My magnets are imbeded inside a bushing. I figured the strength of my magnets and how thick the metal has to be to be near saturation to hold all the permanent magnet flux inside the core onto itself. Ive learned through testing that this greatly decreased the amount of current needed to flip that permanent magnet flux outward instead of inward. I have to use all like pole magnets, and I am using an axial flux design so I can use both sides of the coil for each pulse. Basically, the magnet is shorted inside the core containing nearly all the flux. I tried repelling and it worked great. But attraction works better so that the way I'm building it now. I have measure with a scale the exact distance from the core at which the most force is given to the rotor for each pulse. I find that 11 degrees before TDC gives the strongest response for attraction. So as the rotor magnet is attracting to the core, at 11 degrees, it will give a sharp pulse the flips the magnet flux outward from the core added to the natural pulse of the electromagnetic core. The gives huge attraction for the least amount of energy. As the pulse releases, I collect only the flyback. The PM flux naturally shorts out back inside the core as the rotor passes on by. This design gives great power increase for torque, but horrible if I try to use them as a generator coil. Lenz throws on the breaks 2 fold on these things. I'll keep the other thread updated and share everything. I don't want to over run your thread with to far off topic of course. But the 2nd side of my system, the generator side, will be very much on topic here. But it's not built yet. I will also be doing more testd with this special coils only in generator mode. They seriously suck to try and generate from them while alsobtrying to motor with them at the same time. BUT... I want to play around with using them backwards in gen mode. Seeing if I can find a way to maybe line them up and only draw from half the cycle. Meaning, line it up so that the natural repulsion caused by lens of the rotor magnet leaving the gen coil, will flip the permanent magnet to aid in rotor motion while lenz tries to slow it down. Hard to explain. But what is in my head may give a loss on the way in and a gain on the way out. So i would go open coil on the way in, and generate on the way out. Im thinking, maybe we can get a gain only drawing half the power from it? I dont know. My brain hurts trying to think backwards all the time... lol. So many twisted ideas to test!!! More to come.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #73 on: April 09, 2022, 08:40:05 PM »
Wow, yeah that's pretty complex.  I will be reading it slowly line by line to fully understand and work it all through my head. I will certainly be watching your updates.


Offline captainpecan

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Re: Running Adams Motor - 6 pole Alternating Polarity
« Reply #74 on: April 09, 2022, 09:22:07 PM »
I like the way you think. Who knows until we try it... As you know, there is only so far we can take theories. And it is amazing sometimes how different things react in actual practice. Its so important in my mind to document all the mistakes too. I think so many times everyone gets excited about an idea and keeps posting about it. Then in practice people realize it doesnt work, and nobody posts that info. Then you get so many people repeating the same failures and just getting frustrated. Hell, sometimes I will do things assuming it will fail, just because I cant understand why it fails and I want to repeat it and play with it to learn from it. But, dealing with magnetism, we are dealing with things at the quantum level. And to anyone who has studied into quantum physics, they know things act completely different than expected at times at that level. But to me, that makes it even more fun. But when it is all said and done, if all i ever achieve is finding a way to increase efficiencies by 50% that nobody has ever done before, that's a win in my book even if I never find that elusive free energy. To me that 50% is free because we didn't have it before.