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Author Topic: HHO projects  (Read 3195 times)

Offline assokin227

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HHO projects
« on: February 23, 2022, 04:33:51 PM »
I am interested because I am writing a monograph on HHO self-generating energy systems.  that develops some ideas.I have a website that I use to post monographs There are about 5 of them.
www.hho-research.org

In the one currently being written, I go back and examine the Oliver Valentin project. When first reading it, I noted that they got 400 watts output and their cells required 800 to 900 watts. So if this were scaled up to a unit with an output of 1 megawatt, would it need a 2 megawatt electrolysis plant (800/400 = 2) and an engine with a capacity of 3 megawatt? It looks rather bleak.  To deploy this system large scale, it would have to be cost competitive with other forms of renewable energy.

But it helps to look at it from a different perspective. What was the total amount of energy they got per gram of HHO hydrogen?  Assuming that the genset was about 15% efficient (and I did calculations on specs of what appeared to be a comparable product) then 85% of the energy produced was wasted. That works out to around 1.5 megajoules per gram of hydrogen.  The low heating value of hydrogen is 0.11996 megajoules per gram.  That is a factor of roughly 13, certainly over unity.

The same thing could be done with a more efficient engine, generator and maybe some sort energy recovery such as a microturbine attached to the exhaust that runs a generator that could power the electrolysis system. (The amount of energy that goes out through the exhaust is roughly equal to the amount of output energy produced by the engine.) The data produced by the Olive Valentin project seems rather approximate but based on the yeild value, a 1 megawatt unit might require an electrolyzer with a capacity of about 250 kilowatts.  Certainly significant but initial and maintenance costs are more likely to be manageable given the size of such a unit.

In another calculation,  I noticed that this yield value is much higher at very low concentrations of HHO.   On two different engine tests, it averaged a net yield of 6 megajoules per gram of hydrogen where the volumetric concentration was about 0.1%. 

In the Oliver Valentin project the concentration was about 5% and the yield was 1.5 MJ/gram. 

So what about all the concentrations in between? Maybe the yield effect is self inhibiting, so a plot of yield versus concentration might be a linear function.  Total energy produced would equal the product of the yield value and grams of hydrogen present.   

The total energy produced as a function of concentration would then be a quadratic equation. It would have maxima at around 2%.  The total concentration of hydrogen has to be above the combustability limit of 4% so that a reaction occurs when the spark goes off.  So we would need another 2% regular diatomic hydrogen to get us to 4%.

The total amount of energy at 2% HHO comes out 2.5 times greater than the amount at 4%.  So a 50/50 mixture of HHO and hydrogen may produce 2.5 times more energy than the same amount of HHO by itself.

I have a few other ideas.   I began an engine project a while back shown in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1DXtLrH1YU Also, I did this video early on in the pandemic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMkQn4rieLI&t=13s I have a company,  which is an actual Illinois LLC, www.almeo-research.comHowever,  I think development of a self-generating HHO energy system should be open source.

Offline stevie1001

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Re: HHO projects
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2022, 09:39:12 PM »
Nice, however.....
You should think on why you do not hear anything of these guys....
The title of their video is to think different.
That cell and their powersupply was basic stuff.
But the key question is what substance was in the bubler....




Offline Paul-R

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Re: HHO projects
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2022, 11:36:48 PM »
I am interested because I am writing a monograph on HHO self-generating energy systems.
Have you read Patrick's Chapter 10?
Now at
http://www.free-energy-info.tuks.nl/indexOct2018.html
The Bob Boyce and Dave Lawton work is most interesting.

Offline assokin227

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Re: HHO projects
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2022, 02:58:04 PM »
Those are good questions.  I've been studying HHO gas injection, Diesel engine technology and related topics since 2008. A better question may be what's next?  If no one does it, how is it going to happen?

Rather than trying to get a self-generating system, just mapping the characteristics of the engine under highly controlled conditions would probably be more productive. The engine has to be run at a regulated speed and load. A small gas engine might be placed on a little engine dynamometer.  But what would perhaps be cheaper and more appropriate to this test would be to estimate what is called IMEP, indicated mean effective pressure, which would give the load on the engine.

A pressure sensor is installed in cylinder head of the engine.  A trigger disk is attached to the shaft of the engine and a variable reluctance sensor produces a clock which tracks the crank angle.  A computer device connected to these sensors plots out pressure vs. volume within the engine to get what's called an indicator diagram.  The area within the plot is integrated to get the IMEP value.  In a sense, it gives a view of what happens inside the cylinder. I actually put together such ah arrangement and latter, built electronics that recorded an indicator diagram. See

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1DXtLrH1YU

This was done in my back yard, not the best place for more extensive research.   That would start with running the engine on hydrogen from a tank.  That would provide the classical baseline performance of this engine.  Then connecting an electrolytic HHO reactor.  HHO and bottled hydrogen might be used together at first. In any case, it would be an attempt to measure energy yield,  that is, the additional amount of energy produced per gram of HHO hydrogen injected. In this monograph found at  www.hho-research.org/wp12.pdf  ,  I develop this idea. 

It seems possible that multi megajoule  energy yields are possible.   In two different sets of tests,  the average yield value was 6 MJ/gram of HHO hydrogen. That is 50 times more than the low heating value of hydrogen ( 0.11996 MJ/gram )  the amount of energy that would be obtained from just burning the stuff.

The Oliver Valentin project would suggest that the reason for such a yield is a non-classical rationale and there are several other reasons suggesting that this actually makes sense. This project requires a more industrial space than my backyard,  such as, what is called a hackerspace having welding shop facilities, such as a place called Pumping Station One located at 3519 N Elston Ave, Chicago, IL.

I will finish the monograph, then maybe schedule a meet up to talk about the possibility of an open source project to explore the potential of using self-generated hydrogen/HHO as a self-contained energy source.

Offline ramset

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Re: HHO projects
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2022, 05:56:10 PM »
Sir
 Thank you for sharing your efforts and thoughts ,
I am taking the initiative to forward this info to persons
I feel could assist you in this open source venture ,and comment here!


Respectfully
ChetKremens@gmail.com

Offline onepower

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Re: HHO projects
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2022, 05:43:33 AM »
Assokin227
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Those are good questions.  I've been studying HHO gas injection, Diesel engine technology and related topics since 2008. A better question may be what's next?  If no one does it, how is it going to happen?

Most European countries have been using HHO and water injection for decades because of high fuel prices. There research and application of this tech is well ahead of most countries.

I started experimenting with water injection and plasma ignition when I was 16 about 40 years ago. Most today still don't understand how most of this stuff works so I will touch on a few points.

The main goal of water injection is to cool the cylinder, modulate the burn time and prevent pre-detonation. So we can run more volatile fuels at higher compression generating more power more efficiently without pre-detonation. I injected a water mist into the intake proportional the the fuel/air and monitored the exhaust temps. The water also flashes to steam cleaning the valves/combustion area increasing efficiency. The ignition system also has to be more powerful to compensate for the water vapor in gas engines but obviously not a diesel.

So why water injection?, I could run any fuel at high compression and unheard of super lean fuel/air ratio's because there's no pre-detonation and the burn can be modulated in the cylinder. In fact I could run a gas engine with no carburetor allowing 100% air all the time. The throttle was regulated only by the fuel/water intake injectors and ignition timing. So most of the stuff we learned about the average engine is irrelevant. 

On HHO, most don't understand what HHO actually does in the engine. The HHO burns super fast which acts as an accelerant for the gas or diesel fuel. However most see little benefit because it burns too fast near the top of the stroke. So like water injection we can advance the timing so the pressure bump occurs later in the stroke. Less rod/crank angle keeps the increased cylinder pressure in check and applies it more efficiently. So we can have a faster much more efficient burn generating more pressure/power where it acts most efficiently. The HHO has little energy but it releases the energy in a small time period, a fast burn, which is the real benefit.

You should also try this out because it works really well... Squish-Zone Grooves (IC Engine)
http://rexresearch.com/singh/singh.htm
I started on lawn mower engines to get a feel for it then worked up to motorcycles and generators.

In any case I have been building and researching stuff on engines for decades and found even the new engines are a joke. It's all the same old crap with some new packaging and most are still grossly inefficient. I still enjoy tinkering with engines and wanted to share some of this so people understand how much there is to learn and how far we can go.

Regards
AC

Offline Paul-R

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Re: HHO projects
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2022, 11:30:24 AM »
Assokin227
Most European countries have been using HHO and water injection for decades because of high fuel prices...
...and the need for speed.
I think the P-47 used water injection for short bursts of power but it couild cause problems for longer periods. It might be worth asking Pratt & Whitney if their historical records have research papers which you could use.

Offline onepower

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Re: HHO projects
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2022, 03:32:33 PM »
Paul
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...and the need for speed.
I think the P-47 used water injection for short bursts of power but it couild cause problems for longer periods. It might be worth asking Pratt & Whitney if their historical records have research papers which you could use.

I did extensive research over a few years and never had any long term issues other than power train problems. The extra power was bending sheer pins between the crank and clutch plate and wiping out universal joints. The water injection allows a leaner fuel/air charge at higher compression without cylinder over heating or pre-detonation.

In fact some found the engine ran so cool they could do away with the cooling system all together. Another example is the 6 stroke engine combining a conventional 4 stroke with a steam engine. The 6 stroke did not need a conventional cooling system either.

Some had issues with common sense and kept the water injectors on when shutting an engine down. This left water vapor in the engine causing rust in the intake, cylinder and crank case. This is an amateur mistake and I simply ran the engine a few minutes without water injection before shutting down.

Regards
AC


Offline h20power

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Re: HHO projects
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2022, 07:16:41 PM »
The problem with adding hho to today's modern day cars is you have to tell the computer just what it is you are doing to the car. Bob Boyce found that out the hard way as his Toyota ended up getting worse fuel economy than it started out with once the computer reset things back to what it was programed to maintain. This is why when people just add a hho device to their car it starts off good but ends up bad as they didn't reprogram the car's computer for the new fuel being added to the car's system. The computer has been program for a ratio of 14.7:1 for gasoline cars and when you add in a hho system that ratio needs to be changed to something like 38:1 but in order to get it working properly you would have to put the car on a dyno to map things out correctly.


Shalom,
Edward Mitchell
CEO and Owner
True Green Solutions
https://www.gofundme.com/f/energy-independence-for-you-and-me

Offline Paul-R

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Re: HHO projects
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2022, 10:57:17 PM »

I did extensive research over a few years and never had any long term issues other than power train problems. The extra power was bending sheer pins between the crank and clutch plate and wiping out universal joints.

I think that P & W were getting so much power that prolonged use would blow the engine. There might be something to learn from them. One of the P-51s also used it on a Packhard Merlin and so either they or Rolls Royce might provide their archived research papers.

Offline onepower

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Re: HHO projects
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2022, 11:06:16 PM »
H20power
Quote
The problem with adding hho to today's modern day cars is you have to tell the computer just what it is you are doing to the car.

My father used a programmable ICE computer on his EA81 Subaru engine conversion for aviation. On home built aircraft they often have to convert everything over to aircraft standards/operating conditions. He could literally setup every parameter and all the sensor/operating curves on a laptop.

A while back I was programming an Arduino with interrupts for use on a small Combined Heat and power unit. It worked well enough using an optical sensor for ignition timing and servos managing the separate fuel and air flows. Not optimal but it worked better than I expected.

A friend also convinced me to design a scooter CDI/fuel injection unit. Apparently there's a big demand for after market systems in the Philippines and other Asian markets. Never had the time to follow through but it was an interesting project. So it is doable but like everything it takes a great deal of time to design and test. Everything has to be the hard way, lol.

Regards
AC

Offline h20power

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Re: HHO projects
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2022, 03:23:18 AM »
H20power
My father used a programmable ICE computer on his EA81 Subaru engine conversion for aviation. On home built aircraft they often have to convert everything over to aircraft standards/operating conditions. He could literally setup every parameter and all the sensor/operating curves on a laptop.

A while back I was programming an Arduino with interrupts for use on a small Combined Heat and power unit. It worked well enough using an optical sensor for ignition timing and servos managing the separate fuel and air flows. Not optimal but it worked better than I expected.

A friend also convinced me to design a scooter CDI/fuel injection unit. Apparently there's a big demand for after market systems in the Philippines and other Asian markets. Never had the time to follow through but it was an interesting project. So it is doable but like everything it takes a great deal of time to design and test. Everything has to be the hard way, lol.

Regards
AC




Even with Meyer's technology I must get the machine that will allow me to reprogram my car before I can convert it to run on the technology. I will have to make another EGR system as the one's the come with the car aren't fast enough to keep up with the changes as in Meyer's technology the EGR is now being used to adjust the burn rate of hydrogen and keep it where you want it to be at all times. I find most people didn't know about Bob Boyce's Toyota getting worse fuel mileage after the car's computer went to reset everything as that story really isn't told.


I watch people add those devices to their cars all the time and then when it doesn't work as planned join all the Naysayers going against this technology which most of them have no idea that the world already runs on hydrogen as they aren't smart enough to realize that what's burning in the gasoline they put in their tanks is hydrogen. Meyer's technology allows us to switch the source of hydrogen away from fossil fuels to just plain water. But even as good as I am even I must learn how to implement the technology into today's cars. Being a mechanic for over 30 years does give me an edge but just an bit.


No mater what is done to todays cars the computer that was put in to manage them must be told just what it is you are doing to them to make the car run it's best be it just water injection, hho, or a complete hydrogen system like that which Stanley Meyer was going to bring out. But the folks need to learn that the world already runs on hydrogen as our educational system have clearly failed at teaching everyone that.


I think I have to go to the next city to find a dyno machine I can use while I convert my SUV to run on Meyer's technology. I'm not sure of the cost but I already know if I am to map the full engines performance it must be done on a engine dyno. I am quite interested in seeing just what the Gas Processor's effects is on a engine as I don't know of anyone that has tested that device before.


Well, I think once people read what I have had to say they will now know there is a lot that goes into getting a vehicles engine to run correctly with todays modern computer systems be it a car, truck, plane, train, ship, or even a motorbike. As it's not enough to get the technologies up and running but knowing how to go about implementing these technology into our lives as we go about trying to phase out fossil fuel use.


Shalom,
Edward

Offline onepower

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Re: HHO projects
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2022, 05:39:08 PM »
On a practical working HHO setup...

As usual Nikola Tesla was many decades ahead of his time as an engineer/inventor and most still haven't caught up to him today. As Tesla claimed, a hybrid ICE generator to AC motor system will always win.

This is true because the ICE can easily be tuned to run at it's sweet spot at a constant RPM for maximum efficiency. The ICE generator charges a battery bank which then drives a high efficiency AC motor. This also allows for regenerative braking adding a 30% bump in efficiency. As well the ICE only needs to be sized to match the lower power needed for highway driving.

In essence it's a 100% electric vehicle with a high efficiency standby ICE generator.

So the ICE can be undersized at around 40-60 hp and run at a constant power level for max efficiency. For example a modern 40 to 60 hp four stroke water cooled snowmobile engine is under 100lb and occupies maybe 1.5 cubic feet. It has a small footprint, minimal electronics and could easily be adapted to an HHO system. Then we build a universal ICE/generator package which can be retrofitted into any vehicle and were good to go.

Most cannot see the real benefits of this system however as an Engineer I think it's obvious...
1)It's light weight, compact and super efficient.
2)The ICE only has to be setup and tuned to one RPM/power level. The ICE comes on and runs up to it's sweet spot and stays there running the generator. There are no fuel/air curves, no variable HHO curves, no variable timing and it only requires one optimized setting. It's a no brainer...

This is why Nikola Tesla will always be "The Man" because he understood all this stuff 70 years ago much better than 99% of people today.

AC




Offline h20power

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Re: HHO projects
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2022, 10:01:41 PM »
On a practical working HHO setup...

As usual Nikola Tesla was many decades ahead of his time as an engineer/inventor and most still haven't caught up to him today. As Tesla claimed, a hybrid ICE generator to AC motor system will always win.

This is true because the ICE can easily be tuned to run at it's sweet spot at a constant RPM for maximum efficiency. The ICE generator charges a battery bank which then drives a high efficiency AC motor. This also allows for regenerative braking adding a 30% bump in efficiency. As well the ICE only needs to be sized to match the lower power needed for highway driving.

In essence it's a 100% electric vehicle with a high efficiency standby ICE generator.

So the ICE can be undersized at around 40-60 hp and run at a constant power level for max efficiency. For example a modern 40 to 60 hp four stroke water cooled snowmobile engine is under 100lb and occupies maybe 1.5 cubic feet. It has a small footprint, minimal electronics and could easily be adapted to an HHO system. Then we build a universal ICE/generator package which can be retrofitted into any vehicle and were good to go.

Most cannot see the real benefits of this system however as an Engineer I think it's obvious...
1)It's light weight, compact and super efficient.
2)The ICE only has to be setup and tuned to one RPM/power level. The ICE comes on and runs up to it's sweet spot and stays there running the generator. There are no fuel/air curves, no variable HHO curves, no variable timing and it only requires one optimized setting. It's a no brainer...

This is why Nikola Tesla will always be "The Man" because he understood all this stuff 70 years ago much better than 99% of people today.

AC


I'm a bit different in my approach to all of this as I have over 30 years of experience as a mechanic. While I'm not going to tell anyone what I am planning lets just say there is a engine that was built a long time ago that is well suited to this technology. The engine has very few moving parts, about the same as Tesla cars do, plus they have a small footprint to boot. Add this experience I have to all the science I picked up in college and it's no wonder I solved exactly how the water for fuel technology works scientifically. It's been a long journey where I had to spend quite a bit of money while making use of the scientific method to get at the science behind this technology.
I still find it puzzling when people go out of their way to get in contact with me expecting me to just hand all I know about the technology over to them free of charge. The only reason I shared the science behind the technology was due to a promise I made many years ago stating I would do so if I got at it as I am a man of my word. I find it sad to see so many have tossed in the towel on this technology but I know the reason why they kinda had to do so as they were just in full out copy mode and could care less about actually learning just how the technology worked. I'd watch folks working on this technology arguing over who copied the technology better than the other and would think to myself what if there was a mistake made in what they were all copying? Anyway I chose to take the long way around through better understanding as copying something not knowing how it worked fully just sounded foolish to me.


Yeah Nikola Tesla was a man ahead of his time but this technology is even better as it allows us to be apart of the earth's water cycle. I honestly do not see an equal to this technology as to it's full capabilities as anything that is currently running on fossil fuels right now can be converted to running on this technology. I find that in general people don't seem to understand the world already runs on hydrogen and I am not talking about just what man uses it for. Our problem is the source of the hydrogen we choose to use as it's dirty. Using this technology will allow us to ditch fossil fuels for good. The technology powers planes, trains, forklifts, cars & trucks, and many more things as it's a one shop fits all type of technology.


I find that most western nations general population have no idea how bad battery powered things are for our environment and those that do seem to know just don't seem to care about the damage they are doing to someone else's home on the planet: [size=78%]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipOeH7GW0M8&t=7s[/size]


It's hard to watch that video as it kinda tears me up but it just goes to show all the push for an EV switch over from fossil fuels is not a good idea. Anyway with Capitalism it's just like Meyer says in that the cheapest will win out in the end and I am fairly certain that this technology will be the cheapest with me behind the wheel, but I welcome the competition just as long as it's moves to solve our climate change problems.


Shalom,
Edward

Offline onepower

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Re: HHO projects
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2022, 11:16:37 PM »
H2Opower
Quote
Yeah Nikola Tesla was a man ahead of his time but this technology is even better as it allows us to be apart of the earth's water cycle. I honestly do not see an equal to this technology as to it's full capabilities as anything that is currently running on fossil fuels right now can be converted to running on this technology. I find that in general people don't seem to understand the world already runs on hydrogen and I am not talking about just what man uses it for.

Very good points, as you say many don't understand that when burning fossil fuels or hydrocarbons (HxCy) the hydrogen is the energy source and the carbon basically inert. For example, a fuel cell reforms a hydrocarbon discarding the carbon and using only the hydrogen in the energy conversion process. So the carbon is basically useless and unwanted similar to nitrogen in the combustion process. So yes, the world quite literally does run on hydrogen.

Quote
I find that most western nations general population have no idea how bad battery powered things are for our environment and those that do seem to know just don't seem to care about the damage they are doing to someone else's home on the planet: [size=78%]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipOeH7GW0M8&t=7s[/size]

I see it as a means to an end following our learning curve. Energy storage is a huge issue which opens up many other roads to greater efficiency. The new batteries use organic materials and oxide layers doubling the energy density of the current LiPo battery technology. As I implied, energy storage can allow multiple energy sources to be utilized. There are three phases, energy production, energy storage and energy utilization.

Quote
It's hard to watch that video as it kinda tears me up but it just goes to show all the push for an EV switch over from fossil fuels is not a good idea. Anyway with Capitalism it's just like Meyer says in that the cheapest will win out in the end and I am fairly certain that this technology will be the cheapest with me behind the wheel, but I welcome the competition just as long as it's moves to solve our climate change problems.

Indeed, it's heartbreaking however we must always keep the bigger picture in mind as inventors. For example, T.H.Moray invented an electrical device with no moving parts which could produce almost 20kW per cubic foot. That's 26 hp per cubic foot of volume with no moving parts and no fuel of any kind. If that doesn't blow your mind then nothing will and it's a good indication of just how far behind the technology curve we are. Were basically cave men, which is cool I suppose, lol...

Regards
AC