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## 2022 builders survivor board => General Builders discussion => Topic started by: floodrod on February 01, 2022, 02:21:39 AM

Title: Coil Arrangement Question for reciprocation
Post by: floodrod on February 01, 2022, 02:21:39 AM
I am seeking ideas for best coil arrangement in this scenario. If anyone could educate me?

Say I has a row of 25 magnets in a straight line like the pic attached. Alternating polarity.  And these magnets were on a device that reciprocated at great speeds left, right, left, right, repeating.  Now I wanted to put coils over and under this strip to generate current.

Would my best bet be having an equal number of coils to magnets, in which each coil was the same size as a magnet?

What other coil arrangement options are there?  I am seeking links for more knowledge on this subject.

Should each magnet only pass 1 coil at a time? Would putting a big starship coil under a strip work? Is it not a good idea?

I have much learning to do in this subject- so I am hoping to get some direction from the masters!

Title: Re: Coil Arrangement Question for reciprocation
Post by: Floor on February 01, 2022, 04:45:35 AM
Search
basics of permanent magnet electric motors
for a start

Lots of good stuff there...

floor
Title: Re: Coil Arrangement Question for reciprocation
Post by: Ufopolitics on February 01, 2022, 03:54:57 PM
Hello,

There are many ways to do coil winding and cores for this type of setup...However, I will just show the "basic ones"...as it can get complicated as much more possibilities...

The Steel Core should be around the size of the magnets, then the winding wire coils will meet the Spatial Magnetic Field, or the spatial space around magnets.

So, you will have a set of cores for top and another set for bottom...

The Windings:

1- Alternated S Coils like a Car Alternator, study that...but basically consists of an upper run going up, then down to next core

2- Typical Generator Winding is a loop for each core (could be of many layers, as long as you keep same pattern all the way) alternating cores for upper and lower sets.

The wire gauge depends on the Currents and Voltages you are looking for...The finer the wire, the lesser the current, the higher the Voltage (more resistance, Ohms Law)

A heavier gauge will deliver lower Voltage and High Currents (Amps)...as it has lesser resistance.

A typical, mid size wire, like from 16-18-20 Gauge will work fine for a pretty good Voltage around 50 to 220 Voltas and like up to 20-30 Amps.

And of course, the Higher the Reciprocating Movement, the more Energy will Output...(directly proportional to output)

Hope this  helps you...

Cheers

Ufopolitics

Title: Re: Coil Arrangement Question for reciprocation
Post by: Ufopolitics on February 01, 2022, 04:11:47 PM
I am seeking ideas for best coil arrangement in this scenario. If anyone could educate me?

Say I has a row of 25 magnets in a straight line like the pic attached. Alternating polarity.  And these magnets were on a device that reciprocated at great speeds left, right, left, right, repeating.  Now I wanted to put coils over and under this strip to generate current.

Hello, it is great that you are able to set coils on top and below, that way you will use both poles of the magnetic field...

Would my best bet be having an equal number of coils to magnets, in which each coil was the same size as a magnet?

Yes, one core per magnet, however they should be attached also with a steel main frame, to dissipate heat plus eddy and parasite currents.
Laminated steel would be more suitable, as also contributes to above currents dissipation-distribution plus induced fields better reach.

What other coil arrangement options are there?  I am seeking links for more knowledge on this subject.

Many, many options...many different possibilities...

Should each magnet only pass 1 coil at a time? Would putting a big starship coil under a strip work? Is it not a good idea?
1- It depends on the reciprocating distance the device does...but yes, one magnet per coil is fine...If your reciprocating distance reaches more than one magnet, then you could do Overlapped Coils.
2- Nope, a whole big coil over all magnets will get a mixed signal...distorted, not good.

I have much learning to do in this subject- so I am hoping to get some direction from the masters!

I am pretty sure you will...

You are welcome

Cheers

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Coil Arrangement Question for reciprocation
Post by: Ufopolitics on February 01, 2022, 05:01:39 PM

Here is the Elevation view of your setup and the windings coils distribution and connections...as you must realize magnets in your drawing are only representing one pole...and they have two...upper and lower, correct?

On my previous image I only show the upper windings, alternated and not the lower ones...and so you fully understand it, I have to show a different view of the windings (Coils) and connections.

Here you will see upper and lower alternation between North and South Poles...

Cheers

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Coil Arrangement Question for reciprocation
Post by: citfta on February 01, 2022, 05:25:40 PM
Hi floodrod,

Ufo has given you some good information.  Let me clarify a couple of things about what he has posted. Thinner gauge wire does not give you higher voltage because of it's higher resistance.  If the length of wire and number of turns is the same as the thicker wire then actually the voltage will be a little lower because of the higher resistance.  But It you have two coils that have the same dimensions the coil with the thinner wire will produce a higher voltage because you can get many more turns in the same space.  The number of turns determine the voltage if everything else is the same.

The thinner wire is not capable of producing as high a current as the thicker wire just as Ufo has posted.  But until you reach the limits of current for a particular size of wire the current produced depends on the load being powered.  The load determines how much current is needed.  So obviously thinner wire can not power as large a load as thicker wire.

Another thing to understand is that voltage is determined by the number of turns of wire and the strength of the magnetic field affecting the wire and the speed of change of the magnetic field.  Changing the speed affects only the voltage.

The amount of current draw is reflected back to the power source that is moving the magnetic field.  Under light current draw it takes very little power to move the magnetic field.  However under heavy current draw it takes more power to move the magnetic field.  If you have ever worked with gasoline powered portable generators you have seen this in action.  The governor of the engine is designed to hold the engine speed the same so that the output voltage stays pretty steady.  Usually between 110 and 120 volts AC.  However when you plug something into the generator you will hear the engine start to work harder as the governor opens the throttle some to maintain the same speed and thus keep the voltage steady.

I hope this information is helpful to you.
Title: Re: Coil Arrangement Question for reciprocation
Post by: synchro1 on February 01, 2022, 05:33:13 PM
Weight in copper determines magnetic strength for anykind of coil configuration or wire thickness. Voltage equals current times resistance.
Title: Re: Coil Arrangement Question for reciprocation
Post by: Ufopolitics on February 01, 2022, 05:44:25 PM
Hi floodrod,

Ufo has given you some good information.  Let me clarify a couple of things about what he has posted. Thinner gauge wire does not give you higher voltage because of it's higher resistance.  If the length of wire and number of turns is the same as the thicker wire then actually the voltage will be a little lower because of the higher resistance.  But It you have two coils that have the same dimensions the coil with the thinner wire will produce a higher voltage because you can get many more turns in the same space.  The number of turns determine the voltage if everything else is the same.

The thinner wire is not capable of producing as high a current as the thicker wire just as Ufo has posted.  But until you reach the limits of current for a particular size of wire the current produced depends on the load being powered.  The load determines how much current is needed.  So obviously thinner wire can not power as large a load as thicker wire.

Another thing to understand is that voltage is determined by the number of turns of wire and the strength of the magnetic field affecting the wire and the speed of change of the magnetic field.  Changing the speed affects only the voltage.

The amount of current draw is reflected back to the power source that is moving the magnetic field.  Under light current draw it takes very little power to move the magnetic field.  However under heavy current draw it takes more power to move the magnetic field.  If you have ever worked with gasoline powered portable generators you have seen this in action.  The governor of the engine is designed to hold the engine speed the same so that the output voltage stays pretty steady.  Usually between 110 and 120 volts AC.  However when you plug something into the generator you will hear the engine start to work harder as the governor opens the throttle some to maintain the same speed and thus keep the voltage steady.

I hope this information is helpful to you.

Thans much Ctfta for helping me clarify the subject!!

You have given the very essentials about it!!

Thanks again

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Coil Arrangement Question for reciprocation
Post by: Ufopolitics on February 01, 2022, 06:02:04 PM
Weight in copper determines magnetic strength for anykind of coil configuration or wire thickness. Voltage equals current times resistance.

"Copper Weight" is a very "GENERAL" term...which tends to be confusing.
"Copper Weight" depends on All Parameters about a Coil which varies a lot...like Length, Thickness or Diameter plus number of turns (loops) and , of course the Gauge utilized of ANY given Coil is EXACTLY what defines the Output of any given Coil...

And we are not looking here for "Magnetic Strength" but for Induced Capacity of the Coils, as they are for Generators, not for Motors.

In this case that this Thread relates to here, the Magnets are the ones to be measured their "Magnetic Strength"...not the Output Generating Coils.
Title: Re: Coil Arrangement Question for reciprocation
Post by: Ufopolitics on February 01, 2022, 06:29:49 PM
Hey Citfta...

How many "Pounds of Copper" do you recommend to make an Overunity Coil?

Forget about length, diameter, gauge nor Turns...just how many Pounds of Copper Man!!

I wanna dump some big time copper Bro!!

;D
Title: Re: Coil Arrangement Question for reciprocation
Post by: bistander on February 01, 2022, 06:42:05 PM
Hey Ufo,
You need an infinite number of pounds of copper to wind an Overunity coil. Better get your order in soon because price of copper is going up.

As far as a good coil layout for a linear PM motor or generator, here's what I think best. Image from:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Two-conventional-types-of-PM-linear-motors_fig3_4333178
bi

Title: Re: Coil Arrangement Question for reciprocation
Post by: Ufopolitics on February 01, 2022, 07:03:56 PM
Hey Ufo,
You need an infinite number of pounds of copper to wind an Overunity coil. Better get your order in soon because price of copper is going up.

Thanks Bistander!!

Then I better go ahead and start buying big chunks of copper weight right away man!!

[/size]As far as a good coil layout for a linear PM motor or generator, here's what I think best. Image from:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Two-conventional-types-of-PM-linear-motors_fig3_4333178 (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Two-conventional-types-of-PM-linear-motors_fig3_4333178)
bi

What about like He said he could put a layer of coils on top and one at bottom of magnets?

That is the Graphics I specially designed for his setup...

I know that most Linear Generators use only one side of the Two Magnetic Poles, like you have posted above.

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Coil Arrangement Question for reciprocation
Post by: bistander on February 01, 2022, 08:20:21 PM
Hi Ufo,
Good luck with that copper venture.

Using both sides of the magnet, N & S pole facing a gap, sounds good, but really is a hindrance. Perhaps you recall me saying the magnetic "pole" is not so important looking at Faraday and Lorentz laws. It's the flux and charge and rate of change and spatial relationships. Using both poles of a PM, or electromagnet, like is suggested brings with it an unnecessary gap in the magnetic circuit which is detrimental and not overcome with any offered advantage. It also complicates construction.
bi
Title: Re: Coil Arrangement Question for reciprocation
Post by: Ufopolitics on February 01, 2022, 08:43:41 PM
Hi Ufo,
Good luck with that copper venture.

Using both sides of the magnet, N & S pole facing a gap, sounds good, but really is a hindrance. Perhaps you recall me saying the magnetic "pole" is not so important looking at Faraday and Lorentz laws. It's the flux and charge and rate of change and spatial relationships. Using both poles of a PM, or electromagnet, like is suggested brings with it an unnecessary gap in the magnetic circuit which is detrimental and not overcome with any offered advantage. It also complicates construction.
bi

Hi Bi,

Sorry but here I agree with some of your statements above...as I also disagree with some...

Yes, agree it is more work to have dual gaps and dual coils layers, one above and one below...
Agree that it's all  about the charge and rate of change...
On spatial relationships, I disagree...if you look again, we are using the magnet in a full way spatially when we do both sides.

And I know what you think about magnetic poles...as you also know what I think about magnetism...but, let's not complicate the author of Thread here by our disagreements, as his main idea was to set two layers of coils above and below...please.

If I remind you about a typical, simple House Small Gennerator, Two Poles Single Phase...the rotor is a Two Pole electromagnet, which is ON at all the time of operation,  where it sweeps 180º North on one side while other 180º gets South...and in the other 180º half turn to complete the 360º it reverses polarity...

Also on Faraday first experiment of a magnet bar and a coil...when he reversed magnet bar, then enter coil, it reversed current flow and voltage polarity on coil...

But in the end, I clearly understand your point...as I do as well that Magnets poles are actually same direction only looking from two different ways...

Let´s  let the builder here decides as he was originally thinking of doing it...and let´s see results.

Regards

Ufopolitics
Title: Re: Coil Arrangement Question for reciprocation
Post by: bistander on February 01, 2022, 09:00:34 PM
Ufo,
You notice when I spoke of using both poles, I qualified it with "as mentioned". In dealing with magnets and electromagnets it is given both poles will be used. Even the homopolar (Faraday disc) dynamo has both a N & S pole, doesn't it? Actually what I'm referring to is the standard "double air gap" dynamo vs the proposed 4 air gap (or more) machine. Just kinda picky terminology, but I understand the concept. Using the OP's "above and below" coils unnecessarily complicates everything and it's been done many times and always discarded. But it's his choice.
bi
Title: Re: Coil Arrangement Question for reciprocation
Post by: Ufopolitics on February 01, 2022, 09:26:51 PM
Here are just a couple of examples where we use magnets both poles, and even Four Poles out of four magnets...for Generators capturing waves energy from the Oceans...

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/a-Two-Sided-Flat-LPMG-b-Four-Sided-Flat-LPMG_fig2_336886386

Title: Re: Coil Arrangement Question for reciprocation
Post by: bistander on February 01, 2022, 10:02:52 PM
Ufo,
Notice in the article, it appears they went to the double air gap (single sided magnet) configuration. Meaning each flux path crosses air gap only twice, like I promote.
bi

Title: Re: Coil Arrangement Question for reciprocation
Post by: floodrod on February 02, 2022, 02:23:47 AM
Wow this is all such great info.. Thank you UfoPolitics and All others for taking the time.

I am in the process of building a 2nd prototype for a device that creates strong and quick reciprocation, which was going to turn a shaft, when I came across linear generators while searching.  And it got me thinking...  I might build 2.  One to make a linear generator- one for my original plan.

Excuse my crappy paint markup, I was just organizing my thoughts with it.  But the linear device will be 2 iron core electromagnets from transformers currently (with plans to upgrade later).  A linear bearing based platform placed between the electromagnets which will have two 40mm x 20mm N52 Neos (one on either side.)

The flux field from Neo to Electromagnet extends to about 45mm, but at 30mm, the force is at the point where the neo sucks to the iron core in an unstoppable fashion.  So I am expecting between a 25-30mm throw.

Needless to say, the strategy is to pulse the electromagnets at the right timing on each side to repel the Neo to attract to the opposite transformer core (repeating).  2 hall sensors, 2 mosfets, and an ardiuno should do the trick.

My mind is telling me the main force being created (the attraction to the cores) takes no input power.  The only power I will need to input is pulses to weaken (or repel) the attraction on 1 side at a time until the flux from the opposite end can take over.

I never expect overunity, nor am I here- but if I can create strong reciprocation with as little input power as I can, this opens the doors to experimenting with flynns parallel path and such to get more efficiency from it..

So basically, my coil arrangement needs to be High Amps, as the electromagnets will be very Amp-Heavy, but minimal voltage.  So Thick copper coils..  And I can design and print the magnet carriage to mount whatever I need above and below.