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Author Topic: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs  (Read 41058 times)

kolbacict

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #75 on: February 14, 2022, 04:45:26 PM »
And here is the motor from the VCR.
I glued the magnets inside the coils.
I will make a short circuit of these coils at the right time.
Will I succeed?  :)
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kolbacict

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #76 on: February 15, 2022, 11:51:17 AM »
It does not want to rotate yet. When the coil is closed at a certain frequency using a relay.
Counted  on the fact that the frequency of revolutions and the frequency of short circuits will successfully coincide.
And why, in fact, a permanent magnet is needed in the middle of the coil ?
Isn't it just by closing a coil with an iron core or without it at all, we will not break the symmetry of forces? ;)

p.s. And Andrey Slobodyan’s motor,such some argue, is a worker, wasn’t it of this type was?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 02:24:39 PM by kolbacict »
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captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #77 on: February 15, 2022, 07:52:16 PM »
Quote from: kolbacict on February 15, 2022, 11:51:17 AM
It does not want to rotate yet. When the coil is closed at a certain frequency using a relay.
Counted  on the fact that the frequency of revolutions and the frequency of short circuits will successfully coincide.
And why, in fact, a permanent magnet is needed in the middle of the coil ?
Isn't it just by closing a coil with an iron core or without it at all, we will not break the symmetry of forces? ;)

p.s. And Andrey Slobodyan’s motor,such some argue, is a worker, wasn’t it of this type was?


Your technique is different than mine. No clue how yours will work. But that's why we are here. Mine, I am using the core to redirect the flux naturally and release WITH the normal pulse of an electromagnet for boosted force. That's the theory anyway. Not sure if iron is needed, but it is integral to the design I am trying. Using data from K&J I determined 3mm thickness of iron (steel in my case) is needed to effectively contain the flux of my particular 12mm by 12mm magnets. It allows a like pole to be attracted to the core with a like pole magnet hiding in it. It naturally draws the two like poles together. Then with the pulse, the field from inside the core permanent magnet gets projected outside of the core to force the rotor away. Just like a normal electromagnet except there is a strong flux waiting to be released already. Then when the pulse stops, you get an added pulse through the coil when the permanent magnet flux again moves back inside the coil. This should be naturally timed with the collapsing field of the coil. I have not tested those effects yet. That is to come. Interesting to see how your technique will work.
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kolbacict

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #78 on: February 21, 2022, 06:57:40 AM »
Quote
(steel in my case) is needed to effectively contain the flux of my particular 12mm by 12mm magnets. It allows a like pole to be attracted to the core with a like pole magnet hiding in it. It naturally draws the two like poles together. Then with the pulse, the field from inside the core permanent magnet gets projected outside of the core to force the rotor away.
I understood. :)
Quote
That's what I'm hoping for and it looks to be true so far.
What success have you achieved?
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captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #79 on: February 22, 2022, 01:21:51 AM »
It does do as expected. But life has been insane for a bit. I just haven't been able to work on my own stuff much lately. Hopefully I'll get some more results posted soon. I still can't tell how much better it works, but it does seem to be at least an advantage. Can't really say more yet because I just don't have the results yet.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2022, 03:26:12 AM by captainpecan »
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kolbacict

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #80 on: February 22, 2022, 06:54:32 AM »
Is there a magnetic saturation of the steel shell in your concept ?
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captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2022, 02:07:09 AM »
Yes. I built with it in mind making assumptions. Mostly to test different options to see how it effects it. I entered in the numbers for the magnets I am using at k&j website and it shows that the flux is mostly contained at 2mm thickness. In my mind, it seems that the quicker you cam saturate the metal, the quicker the flux from the permanent magnet releases outward. I made a coil that was thicker at first amd it does appear to take more power to get the same amount of flux projected forward. I have since chosen material 3 mm thick to enclose the magnet. It encloses it well enough to allow a like pole to attract to the core still, while being nearly saturated. Just see like a good figure to continue working with.
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captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #82 on: March 01, 2022, 08:26:35 PM »
I have finally gotten the extra magnet wire I ordered. I have been holding up a bit until I could make more coils for the build. Hopefully through this weekend I will have more to show and maybe some numbers.

@any talented circuit builders...
I have other ways to power this motor/generator project of course, but I would like to ultimately use a battery pack circuit. I have been working hard to design some battery switching circuits. I would like to run this motor off of the "split the positive" battery system. It is a set of battery packs I would like to use for all my experiments on other projects as well. Its taking me a whole lot of googling and learning. I have found a way to do it using relays, and maybe it will be perfectly fine for testing and all. But relays being mechanical, just have the part failure issues. I am trying to put together a transistor related circuit that will run a set of 16 or more 18650 batteries. The circuit would constantly switch 8 in series dumping into 8 in parallel through the motor. Assuming an average voltage of 4v on each battery, that would give a voltage difference of 28v to 32v to run devices off of. Is anyone aware of a circuit that has already done this or something similar? Please point me in the direction of another post or something you may have seen I could possibly learn from. I have been kicking around the idea of using a 555 timer  to run something, but I am plenty fine using hall switches near my rotor to make the switching. I have come up with my version of a whole bunch of DPDT relay replacements using mosfets. But I'm not really even sure it would work, or if there is simply a better way to do it. I am playing with it a bit anyway. I only put this out there because there are many very talented people in this forum that just may be able to point me in the correct direction.
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captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #83 on: March 08, 2022, 12:19:58 AM »
Well, I got it running!!! I wound some new coils, and ran some individual tests on the new coils. I have found that so far, the more turns of the thinner wire continues to increase efficiency. The less amount of energy it takes per gauss of magnetic field gained. The major drawback is that it requires more and more voltage for extra resistance in the coils. The current draw is very low. To be honest, my watt meter takes quite a bit more energy to even work than this motor takes to run.


At this point, I have chosen to start my tests with 4 coils hooked in series... it is a high resistance and requires more voltage to run. But is where I am starting, as I can switch to parallel and record each step.


The coils I am using are 2600 turns of 30 awg. The coils are 80.7, 78.1, 82.4, and 83.6 ohms each totaling 324.8 ohms for all 4 in series.

I have realized a critical error I made in the design. The coils react much better with the magnets when the coils are not installed in the unit. Therefore, I believe I have the magnets to close together on the rotors. I needed to make the rotor with 4 per rotor instead of 8 per rotor. Or even 6, if I choose to run the coils in parallel pairs. I believe the output would be increased. What I think is happening is that the magnet entering the coil is being slowed down because it is to close when the pulse happens that pushes the leading magnet away. Now of course the force is greater on the 1st magnet but it is reduced by the 2nd. I will be making new rotors as soon as my new magnets arrive.

I have not started recovering any of the energy yet, not even the flyback. This is just getting things running. I'll share more as I can. Wires are a mess and I'm still working on everything. This is just an update of a quick first run.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2022, 08:29:35 AM by captainpecan »
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Floor

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #84 on: March 08, 2022, 06:14:09 AM »
Thanks...
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jimbo

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #85 on: March 09, 2022, 07:55:42 AM »
Captain pecan
 Once you've run your tests there's more you can do .if you drill a hole or tube up the middle of the coil cores .a small hole that would fit 1/8 neo stack it becomes a magnet assisted motor .or in other words when the  power is off the core shorts out the flux field from the neos and when turned on the flux field has no were to go but out combining with the electromagnetic field of the coil .its a booster .and by just adding one neo at a time you can find the needed amount for max output. Happy trails .
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captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #86 on: March 10, 2022, 04:21:12 AM »
Now you are getting the design... the center of the core IS A PERMANENT MAGNET... that was my entire concept. The coils are made so I cam switch out the center. The core is a bushing, with a 1/2" open core. I can still fill it woth steel to test. But I have put a 1/2" magnet inside it and packed 3mm of steel on both sides to enclose the field. The pulse releases the permanent magnet field along with the normal electromagnet. You may have missed the first couple pages of this thread. I tried to detail as much as I could and my theories. Some are proving wrong of course. I have been trying to keep high number turns with thin wire because it is showing the most magnetic field per amount of energy. BUT... it is taking really high voltage for a slow rotation even though it is using next to nothing in current. But, that is still using all coils in series and very high resistance. I am going to make little changes at a time, and then I will be winding some coils with 24 awg wire to test. It may require that extra current to be very useful. But I will find out.
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captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #87 on: March 10, 2022, 05:19:14 PM »
I am seeing some interesting things as I do some testing with this design. As was expected, and brought up by someone early in this thread, Lenz Law is an issue because I am using magnets on the rotor. I am seeing quite a bit of drag, even just collecting the back spike. Some is quite possibly that I have magnets to close on the rotor. But there is a possibility that many of the gains in my design could equal even greater losses due to Lenz. As I move forward with this project, I will be changing the rotor and making a set with iron instead of magnets. Turn this into an attraction motor reducing the severe effect of Lenz law. I can see a very good adaptation on my whole concept to include the work from Tinmans torque force motor. I had that in the back of mind as I was trying to build and understand his concept. I have not fully replicated his motor but I did successfully replicate the effect his motor is taking advantage of. These permanent magnet boosted coils could really boost the attraction effect in his motor design. I may be able to use what I learned from all of Tinmans great work, to meld these two together for a VERY efficient motor/generator design. It has been well known by many and repeated by Tinman, that using attraction in a motor seems to just perform better than repulsion even though to me it seems counterintuitive. But, I often have to learn the hard way by building stuff wrong first. But the experience and knowledge is priceless.  I'm just getting my thoughts and theories out of my head and down somewhere.
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captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #88 on: March 13, 2022, 06:06:16 AM »
Frustration is begining to set in with my current setup. I think it is time to change direction. It runs well. And it runs on very little energy. But when I simply try and recover the flyback, it really bogs down the motor and thats not even trying to pull any other energy out of it. I can get it running at over 500 rpm if I hook all the coils in parallel. But it doesn't take long for that high voltage spike to tank my mosfets. I have to take care of the kickback but when I do, it seriously bogs down the motor and the current cranks up. Almost worse than a traditional motor. With my current design, there is just to many permanent magnets involved and Lenz law is kicking my butt severely. If I try and take any energy out, it throws the breaks on from every damn angle it seems. I have proven the concept of the coils and it works great. But I think I will need to turn this into an attraction motor in order to see any real benefit from these special coils. Big learning experience I am very happy to gain. I can't wait to start converting things around to see what this thing is capable of.


Here is a short clip of it running.
https://youtu.be/Cfn3Zx-JXho

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lancaIV

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #89 on: March 13, 2022, 11:12:14 AM »
Salve ,capitano !
Living with a black cat around ,and more !


Demo arrangement :

Upper wheel and a second,smaller one !
The wheels distance ! More and less distance experiments !?
The upper wheel : rpm rated ? Over/under rated rpm measure values !?
The electricity input variation : DC,AC,pulsed DC,PWM DC included duty cycle lenght experiments !
The nether wheel : ratio diameter upper to diameter nether !
The nether wheel : diameter greater the upper wheel !
Step up or Step down : mechanical transformer !
When not Lenz rules,entering in Fleming rules !?
Enough for a Sunday

wmbr

OCWL

p.s.: Your ' frustration' remembered me SOFT CELL their NON-STOP EROTIC CABARET theme ' Frustration',                                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EebuXP2YLE8

which I for the first time saw in video-audio formate some hours before !(The audio as cassette since the middle 80' owning)


Youtube delivers also : Bedsitter ( ....Sunday morning ... ::) ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbC4yxjydUc

Mein Jott eeye,die san so watt fon twul eeye,so was can become ' free energy' cold weather chamber heater !?
 8) Almond : so ' nen will man nitt bedingungslos im Mondschein begegnen !Naja,Gottes Produktionsphasen sind un-?/ergruendlich : Montag-/Freitag -Prod.-Aussch(l)usz-Ware ! ;)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2022, 01:23:30 PM by lancaIV »
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