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Author Topic: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs  (Read 17453 times)

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2022, 11:00:46 AM »
I learned a few things about this coil setup tonight. I have some test numbers to show.

These numbers are just comparing the original coil I made with the stack of washers, with the new coil I just made using the metal spacers instead. The spacers are much thinner in size. The original coil has 2200 turns on it and the second only has 1600 turns because I did not have enough wire to complete as many turns. I did make 2 taps so that I may run tests I will share next.

The test setup was simple. I used the cell phone app Gauss Meter to measure the magnetic field from a fixed distance from the coil. The app of course is picking up surrounding magnetic fields from other things inside the house, and was on average about .7 Tesla just sitting all by itself. I positioned the phone at a distance so that the reading was exactly 1 T (about 6 inches in this test). Then when I would turn on power to the coil, I can see the magnetic field reading and everything over 1 T is the change in field strength for that distance from the electromagnet. That is the number entered into the tables. It's not the best way to test I am sure, but it is what I have and I used the same consistency though out.

The data from these charts does appear to show that I may have been correct in my theory so far. My theory was that the stack of washers is overkill for the size of magnets I am using. It takes much more energy to saturate the core before I am able to see the effect the permanent magnet has inside the core. Although I am still not able use a power supply of enough voltage to successfully release the power of the permanent magnet from the core, I am able to see the effects of changing the core material, thickness, and turns of wire. It does appear that it is noticeably more efficient to cut down on the core material more than I had before.


***EDIT: All measurements in the charts are actually in GAUSS and not Tesla as stated.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2022, 09:18:55 PM by captainpecan »

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2022, 11:12:59 AM »
This is comparing the results of repeating the same test 3 times. Each using a different tap of the coil which in turn used more turns and higher resistance. This does show that it is increasingly efficient the more turns you can get onto the coil. I am not seeing a point yet at which more turns do not do any more good for the magnetic field. I will be adding even more turns to this coil when more wire arrives. I plan to use more taps and keep increasing the coil until I see the point that it does no more good.


***EDIT: All measurements in the charts are actually in GAUSS and not Tesla as stated
« Last Edit: February 03, 2022, 09:19:19 PM by captainpecan »

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2022, 11:26:58 AM »
The next test I did showed some very useful information. I am now comparing a hollow core to a permanent magnet core. I simply removed the magnet and all metal end caps to just have the coil with hollow spacers with 3mm thick walls. I then filled the core with metal so it was a solid steel core.
I immediately noticed a significant difference between the coil setups. Without the magnet in the core, the magnetic field was significantly less at the distance I was measuring. I also noticed that filling the core with metal made no noticeable difference. In order to see any real magnetic field from the coil. I had to move to within 1 inch of the coil.

This tells me, that with the permanent magnet inside the core, the core is more fully saturated now with the thinner wall spacers, that the field added by energy to the coil, it projected significantly out away from the core. Where as the core without the permanent magnet embedded, most of the energy goes into saturating the core and does not protrude that far away from the electromagnet.

The tests results shown here are testing both from exactly the same distance of about 6 inches from the core. If you move much closer to the empty core, you do see a much greater increase in magnetic field as the voltage and power increases. But it is significantly less than if the permanent magnet is embedded. I had to test at safe distances though because I did not want to subject my cell phone to any higher magnetic fields than I was sure it could handle. The next test needs to be pull force at 2 mm or so from the electromagnet.


***EDIT: All measurements in the charts are actually in GAUSS and not Tesla as stated
« Last Edit: February 03, 2022, 09:19:50 PM by captainpecan »

Floor

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2022, 01:10:33 PM »
Real tests, real data, realy cool.
      thanks.

Offline partzman

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2022, 08:37:42 PM »
Cap,

Your tests are good for comparisons but you might want to check the magnitude of flux you are measuring.  Gauss Meter on my phone measures in gauss not in Tesla.  One Tesla = 10kG so a 1T measurement 6" away from a PM source is quite high from my experience.

regards,
Pm

Floor

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2022, 08:45:10 PM »
May be its time to upgrade that app ?   :)

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2022, 09:02:10 PM »
Thank you. I will have a better power supply hopefully tomorrow, amd can start pushing more into the coils and finally see exactly when that permanent magnets field gets released, and how it acts. I probably won't have any more 30 awg magnet wire for a week or so to increase the number of turns. But I have enough stuff to keep me busy this weekend. Hopefully I'll have more to share soon!

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2022, 09:10:00 PM »
Cap,

Your tests are good for comparisons but you might want to check the magnitude of flux you are measuring.  Gauss Meter on my phone measures in gauss not in Tesla.  One Tesla = 10kG so a 1T measurement 6" away from a PM source is quite high from my experience.

regards,
Pm


Holy crap, lol. You are right. I was using the app on my old cell phone from long ago. I just checked my app on my current phone, and you are correct. Maybe it's labeled wrong on the old app. Now im curious, how I missed it, or if I do need to update an old version error. Thanks for catching that. But luckily, what ever it was I screwed it up equally on all of the tests so it's still a good comparison. Thanks again.

Floor

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2022, 09:29:13 PM »
                 :) Considering that many, much like into my self, 
                        (persons reading the MMM builders board)
     received the printed materials here via the olfactory senses any way.   :)


       Don't worry
                  aBout it.
                         Enjoy instead
                            and
                               keep
                                 remembering 
                                       to   LOL and :)

Offline jimbo

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2022, 11:12:57 PM »
Captainpecan
I think the wire might be a little thin for this .try a larger winding like 20 awg or 22  .its amps turn and thin might not give you the needed amps . I do like the 2200 turns at 30 awg but I think it might need a higher voltage to reach the needed watts . its like everything in electronics something's work some don't .in the movie he's using the thick old wire off a large transformer .with a lot of raps . not all parts combos work like in Tesla coils if its not right it just sits there a dead door stop .. notice once found everybody is running that path .

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2022, 05:00:02 AM »
@jimbo
I typically would agree with your assessment that it needs thicker wire. But in this case, the wire being to thin is actually intentional. I kind of wanted to try it out. I am experimenting with the concept that Robert Adams followed for the Adams motor. He believed it was all in the ampere turns. More turns stronger magnetic field. The added resistance was kind of a bonus and keeps the current down while increasing the turns. He was however leaning towards a combo of high turns and thicker wire. Tinman showed he was seeing similar results but stated that he believed there is a point at which there would no longer be an advantage. I am trying to find that point if it is true. But so far, the more turns of smaller wire, the less I have to pay per gauss. I plan to make one thicker as well to test them both. I just need to know from testing myself.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2022, 09:25:32 AM by captainpecan »

Offline jimbo

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2022, 05:42:07 AM »
Sorry about my meddling .I've kind of created a path way in my research .its to try to duplicate exactly the success first then modify .I can get way off track sometimes . Paul Babcock showed that a lot more wire can double your flux field for the same energy .and the guys over at ???? Amazing ?? I'm not sure they used triple coated very thin wire and a lot of it with very high pluse voltage to gain power .but now are using 30 Awg .

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2022, 09:32:24 AM »
Sorry about my meddling .I've kind of created a path way in my research .its to try to duplicate exactly the success first then modify .I can get way off track sometimes . Paul Babcock showed that a lot more wire can double your flux field for the same energy .and the guys over at ??? ? Amazing ?? I'm not sure they used triple coated very thin wire and a lot of it with very high pluse voltage to gain power .but now are using 30 Awg .


Meddle away! I love the ideas kicking around, suggestions and all. Even those off the wall lame brain ideas we all have sometimes. You never know when one has the tiny key to be the answer to a massive question... I also get way off track sometimes. To the point that I have to reel myself in to complete something. This little hobby gets your mind running and thinking of so many different possibilities that are technically supposed to be impossible anyway. But that's kind of what we are here for anyway!

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2022, 09:37:20 AM »
Frustratingly, I am sitting without a new power supply this weekend because USPS has decided to lose the damn thing. I updated my apps and adjusted some settings I hadn't payed close enough attention to. Some of the settings are faster sampling rates so they may have a real impact on my numbers. I've been running the tests again while I wait for the power supply, and I'm seeing some strong differences made from updating things. Ill post as I have something.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2022, 11:01:41 AM »
I retested the 2 coils after app changes. Difference in numbers but shows same results. Very interesting test I added though.
I hooked both in series and tested them each at the same time using 2 phones with the gauss app. Clearly, the further I go, the more voltage needed. But the less current used and the more magnetic field per unit of energy used. Notice the far right column. That's what we get for our money per say. So far, even though the resistance is rising, we are getting more magnetic field total for the energy being used. Efficiency keeps rising. Interesting numbers.