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Author Topic: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs  (Read 40435 times)

citfta

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #105 on: March 26, 2022, 12:03:30 AM »
Yes it is and it seems to work pretty well.  It was a collective effort of several of the people that were working on the Tinman motor.  I did some testing of the ideas but most of the design came from others.




captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #106 on: March 26, 2022, 01:18:41 AM »
More mind ramblings... but i think i have a valid concept here. Thinking about how my special coils seem great for motor but terrible for generator, I came up with a way to use them on the other side as well. I have been kicking around this idea to help negate Lenz law when trying to use a generator side to pull energy from this system. I think I have another great way to use this special embedded magnet coils I made.

Consider 2 generator coils hooked in series. Coil 1 is an air core coil where permanent magnets will pass on both sides. Without passing any magnets over coil 2, coil 2 will generate a magnetic field equal to the field generated in coil 1. (I think) Because the field is generated from the current being pushed through coil 1 it will be the same current in coil 2. It is well known that if you want to increase the magnetic field of a coil, you can use more current, more turns of wire, and you can use a metallic core. Well, the current is actually going to be very slightly less due to extra resistance of adding a 2nd coil. We could use more turns of course, but that will also add some more resistance. But one change we can easily do is ad an iron core to coil 2. Now we should be able to get a stronger more concentrated field in coil 2 than  in coil 1. Now embed the permanent magnet in the core as well. Now line the same rotor or at least another rotor on the same shaft with coil 2 using instead iron to attract to coil 2 on both sides. Now what we get is every pulse created in coil 1 from magnets passing it that puts a little drag on the rotor, also creates a pulse in coil 2, releasing the permanent magnet field from the core along with the slightly stronger magnetic field originally created from the current in the coil and metallic core. This pulse attracts the metallic rotor towards it giving an extra push to the rotor at the exact same time the Lenz law is trying to drag it down at coil 1.
So, instead of getting a little drag with every bit of energy generated, we get both a little drag and a little push helping to negate the whole effect... maybe with some tweaking, Lenz can be redirected into no longer slowing down the rotor, or maybe even helping to speed it up a bit. Just a theory.
Hopefully I got that out of my head and typed out correctly.

seychelles

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #107 on: March 26, 2022, 04:54:26 AM »
JUST PASSING BY.

captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #108 on: March 26, 2022, 07:40:30 AM »
JUST PASSING BY.


Nice... You should pass by more often!

captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #109 on: April 10, 2022, 12:16:04 AM »
Just a small update. I am rebuilding this weekend and changes things up a bit. So far, I have been running this coil and motor build in repulsion mode. Pulsing after the rotor passes TDC to repel the rotor. I have seen many many times others saying attraction worked better for them. With these special coils I had to try everything because I am not sure anyone has ever made a motor quite like this. Well, attraction is still way better. It's time to make the change everyone else did. Attraction is in fact stronger with this design as well.
I have made a couple rotors now for the new setup, and cut my wood. I have a couple more special coils to make to go with it as well and hopefully I'll be up and running soon.

captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #110 on: April 10, 2022, 12:29:02 AM »
This time I have chosen to use the same coil design. 2600 turns of 30awg wire. I have found that this gives a good magnetic field flip for low current. I have found that 4 coils in series really keeps the current low, but I have to use a much higher voltage to run. This makes it very efficient, but I'm shooting for a little less voltage, a little more current available, and shorter pulses to make this easier to make the move to all batteries soon. I want to have a pretty good rpm but don't really want to run over 30 volts at least for this build. Efficiency has shown higher voltages have performed more efficient. But I'm shooting for a good mix here.
I have chosen to go with 2, 8 magnet rotors, above and below coils. Top will be all North facing down, and bottom all south facing up. The coil will be aligned opposite. I have measured the force acting upon the rotor in attraction mode for my magnets. I have found that between 11 and 10 degrees before TDC gives the strongest pull to the rotor per pulse. I have chosen to build using 6 coils. The combination of 8 magnets and 6 coils will give me 24 pulses into 2 coils in series, for each single rotation. This should give me 5200 turns of copper for every pulse. I do not forsee it being close enough to self start yet. So I will still need to nudge the rotor to start it. But I believe I can adjust the pulse pretty sharp to cut down on current flow and with 24 pulses per rotation, I should get a higher percent of the initial energy back as flyback. The shorter the pulse, the better here. Having 24 per rotation will hopefully give me good rpm anyway at very low wattage. We shall see. I think my biggest struggle is finding the best way to mount the coils that will allow a small gap but be strong enough to not move. There will be quite a bit of force from the rotor magnets acting on them. Just keeping things updated. I'm moving forward.

floodrod

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #111 on: April 10, 2022, 01:43:41 AM »
THE QUICK AND EASY WAY TO AVOID ALL THE LENZ NEGATIVE EFFECT.
IS TO MAKE THE STATOR AND THE ROTOR THE SAME. AS THE TWO REACH TOP
DEAD CENTER BOTH ARE TRIGGERED. AND VOILA.

Can you explain this process more thoroughly for me?

are you saying using all the coils as both generator and drivers.  Pulse all the coils with each magnet pass just past dead center.  And collect all other times including top dead center?

Is this what you are saying?  If not, I would like to hear more about this idea.

thanks

captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #112 on: April 10, 2022, 03:35:31 AM »
.

captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #113 on: April 10, 2022, 03:37:53 AM »

I think what he means is to have coils on the rotor also. Pulsing coils against coils and not having any permanent magnets by themselves. Would be a nice very powerful layout but difficult to do. I think what he means is because the flux hides back inside the core when not pulsed, they pass right by each other with no Lenz drag. Kind of like a normal induction motor that does not use permanent magnets, except this one does use them but only when they do the most good and then they hide again. If I'm reading his stuff correctly. I would actually like to try it but I'm just not sire to do the slip rings and spinning the coils with good connection. It's a very good thought with these coils. And automatically does what I am trying to do by leaving open coil except for the pulse and flyback collection.

floodrod

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #114 on: April 10, 2022, 04:52:36 AM »
I think what he means is to have coils on the rotor also. Pulsing coils against coils and not having any permanent magnets by themselves. Would be a nice very powerful layout but difficult to do. I think what he means is because the flux hides back inside the core when not pulsed, they pass right by each other with no Lenz drag. Kind of like a normal induction motor that does not use permanent magnets, except this one does use them but only when they do the most good and then they hide again. If I'm reading his stuff correctly. I would actually like to try it but I'm just not sire to do the slip rings and spinning the coils with good connection. It's a very good thought with these coils. And automatically does what I am trying to do by leaving open coil except for the pulse and flyback collection.

OK, yeah I was thinking that route also when I read it.  Thanks for the clarification..

I made slip rings / commutators for 3 of my past motors, and they all worked. some better than others.  They aren't too bad to make when all magnets are same polarity. But when your flipping polarity, you need a minimum of 4 contacts.  But I ended up using 5 contacts because making the commutator is much easier with that extra contact.  If I am ever satisfied with a design, I will definitely outfit it with a commutator for the final product.  Can deliver AMPS to the input without the fear of adding another wounded soldier to my chinese quart container of fried H-bridges.  Lol..

Anyway- keep building man...  I await the knowledge you will share.. 

seychelles

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #115 on: April 10, 2022, 08:26:25 AM »
JUST LOOK AT POST 844. JUST ABOVE. YOU CAN MAKE AS A MOTOR AND OR AS A GENERATOR.

lancaIV

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #116 on: April 10, 2022, 08:34:50 AM »
JUST LOOK AT POST 844. JUST ABOVE. YOU CAN MAKE AS A MOTOR AND OR AS A GENERATOR.
Good Sunday-MorningSeychelles !
Hope You are fine ,with-/out maid during the night beside ( and/or bottle beer) !  ;)
Not Your personal postes quantity but Your Reply #120 ee should look for,is it not ?
Happy day and following time wishing
OCWL :)

seychelles

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #117 on: April 10, 2022, 08:36:11 AM »
GENERATOR. THE TWO FLYWHEELS ARE CONNECTED TO EACH OTHER.

seychelles

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #118 on: April 10, 2022, 08:57:45 AM »
THIS IS THE GENERATOR COIL. I JUST WOUNDER IF THE SUDDEN PURSE OF THE TWO PMACOILS
WILL INVOKE THE MAGNETIC FLUX FROM THE DORMANT GENERATOR COIL.

captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #119 on: April 10, 2022, 03:53:30 PM »
THIS IS THE GENERATOR COIL. I JUST WOUNDER IF THE SUDDEN PURSE OF THE TWO PMACOILS
WILL INVOKE THE MAGNETIC FLUX FROM THE DORMANT GENERATOR COIL.
These are some good valid ideas. I'm trying to come up with some simple ways to test. So far, I haven't found a good configuration yet that makes these good for Gen coils. Of course good to excite a normal Gen coil. But so far, every benefit I get pulsing the coil as a motor to unleash the field from inside, just the opposite happens when Lenz pulses it for me in Gen mode. It's like double Lenz in a way. But I'm working on the ideas and trying to wrap my brain around it. But, I'll get the motor side of it running again and I'll get to work on some generator tests with these.