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Author Topic: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs  (Read 17362 times)

Offline captainpecan

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Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« on: January 24, 2022, 08:35:06 AM »
I have been seeing bits and pieces of work done by others that coincides with work I am doing as well. I also realized Floor was working on similar concepts 9 years or more ago. I just wanted a good thread to share info about these ideas and to post my own work as well as I work through some concepts to learn more.


First off, I had always been experimenting with sticking a magnet on the back of my pulse motor coils and seeing how it effects things. But I never got to deep down the whole idea of digging way deeper into what is actually going on there that appears to boost the output with no more energy, or sometimes maybe even less. I will try and reference others works as I find them here. Please feel free to share anything you know of as well. I believe if there isn't any OU available from these various setups, there is at the very least extreme possibilities of increased efficiency.


First off, it was work done by Robert Murray I saw on his youtube channel that inspired my current design I am working on. Here is the video I am referring to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xZa1JGP2oc&t=1s


I probably am not aware of many others who have worked on projects in this area but I know some was posted in another thread I will reference below.
Some very good info including patent info was posted by gyulasun on jimbo's thread here...
https://overunity.com/19030/new-electromagnet-configuration-4-times-out-verses-in/


Here is a post from gyulasun of much interest...


Hi Jimbo,

The concept of embedding a permanent magnet into a ferromagnetic enclosure and use a coil to control the setup was also proposed by Jack Hildenbrand, see his drawings in his thread here: 
 https://overunity.com/833/hilden-brand-magnet-motor/msg22925/#msg22925 

He built several motors with his concept, you can see some pictures on motors he uploaded in his thread but later he deleted them all (mainly due to the patenting process) and someone from the members here saved some of them in this site:
 http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/Inventors/Jack-W-Hildenbrand/ 
In the folder you can see a video on a test demonstrating the Hildenbrand valve principle, done by another kind member here back then. 

Jack patented the concept as "System and method for utilizing magnetic energy", US7453341, the pdf file is also included in the folder.   He claimed a COP of around 2 (to 2.5) for his motors based on the concept https://overunity.com/833/hilden-brand-magnet-motor/msg23790/#msg23790 
(COP = Coefficient of Performance).  Unfortunately Jack deceased in an illness soon after he got the patent and, as I know, no successful replications have been done ever since to get COP > 1 with the concept. 

There was another member here, DMMPOWER, who showed a drawing on the concept as a "super" electromagnet, see here: 
 https://overunity.com/4624/how-to-make-bedini-motor-overunity/msg96814/#msg96814 

And see Floor's post with a link included in it:
https://overunity.com/13354/perm-magnet-only-core-with-iron-shell-motor-coil/msg563135/#msg563135  and see the start of the thread here:
https://overunity.com/13354/perm-magnet-only-core-with-iron-shell-motor-coil/msg354318/#msg354318     

Please do not misunderstand my mentioning the above examples, your efforts and enthusiasm are appreciated and please continue tinkering with this concept.

Gyula


Please feel free to post any other info anyone may have relating to this concept. I do not wish to take any credit away from anyone and their work. I simply want a thread I and anyone else interested in working with this concept can compare notes and share work.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2022, 09:39:57 AM »
Here is the coil design I am currently working on. A good part of it is very similar to a drawing Floor posted some time ago. I am aware a magnetic field is not a perfect oval as depicted here. It's just what I was able to draw easily to show the concept of how the field will work. It's close enough to get the idea across I believe.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 12:53:13 PM by captainpecan »

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2022, 11:28:51 AM »
How it should interact with the rotor. The first one is with the rotor having soft iron on it that is attracted to the electromagnet while turned on and drifts past it when turned off.


The second one uses a rotor with all apposing magnets. Because the field is mostly enclosed in the core of the coil due to the added iron on top and bottom of permanent magnet, the rotor magnet will now be attracted to core instead of slightly repelled by the opposing magnet in the core. After rotor magnet attracts to the coil, just after center, the coil will be turned on. This will create a much stronger repelling force shoving the magnet away.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2022, 12:40:18 PM »
Here is the coil I have made so far. As done by Robert Murray in a video I posted previously, I have used a stack of washers glued together that my 12mm by 12mm neodymium magnet fits in the center of. I also have some 1/2 inch 1 mm thick metal discs. I glued 2 of them in the center of a washer to create the sealed core on top and bottom of magnet. This allows a permanent magnet to interest woth the the core and be attacked to it even though the 2 magnets oppose each other because the flux is held inside the core.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2022, 12:47:19 PM »
And here I have my first coil made. For this one, I am trying high number of turns with thin wire to see how strong of a magnetic field I can get with smaller current draw.


This is 2200 turns of 30 AWG wire. Coil isn't looking perfect and is a bit ugly with super glue drying funny and other things. But it is a solid coil to use.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2022, 11:37:45 PM »
Hi captainpecan, 

Thanks for your kind activity here.   

 Regarding your 2nd drawing in Reply #2 above (CaptainpecanPMassistedCoilRotorMagnet (2).png) I think you are surely aware of the fact that the rotor magnet will induce voltage in the coil, all the way it moves in front of the coil+core assembly.  Lenz law will appear to reduce the repel forces I think when the coil current is switched on (coil will have a closed circuit) to toss the magnet out after the TDC. This is inherent in this assembly but it is surely worth testing whatever the outcome will be.  I agree with what you wrote in the 1st post above:  "I believe if there isn't any OU available from these various setups, there is at the very least extreme possibilities of increased efficiency."   

Hopefully the washers as a ferromagnetic core will not develop too much eddy current loss and neither will the 1 mm thick metal disk covering the center either.  Only a rotating setup will answer this by checking core temperatures.

The high number of turns is surely good for obtaining stronger magnetic fields and if the driving current is low enough to get the needed AmperTurns, then the wire resistance loss may remain acceptable.  Would you measure the DC resistance of the coil.  May I also ask whether you have an oscilloscope.

Gyula

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2022, 03:00:34 AM »
Thanks for the response and looking over what I've done so far. I can't seem to edit the post and add the measurements you requested. I'll add it when it let's me.

The coil I made is 2200 turns of 30 AWG wire. I used 119 grams of copper which made a coil of 80.1 ohms. If I figure correctly would be close to 800 ft.

I do have a couple oscilloscopes. Been a long time since I used them. Just may have to thump the dust off of those baby's. 

I am aware of the lens law that will induce drag on the permanent magnet on the rotor. It is duely noted. Hopefully it will help drop the current draw a bit while it is adding a little drag so maybe the tradeoff will be worth it. It seems to me that there should be quite a bit more torque for less current draw and less "on" time for good results. But of course, it's all theory at this point. The bench will tell the tale! With my design it is extremely easy for me to swap the rotor for iron instead.

I also am wondering the same thing about residual magnetism. I would feel better about it if I was flipping polarity but as of now, they will be pulsed with 1 polarity. After all, there is permanent magnet giving it a constant flux already. But, I figured it is worth a try to see if it makes enough of a difference to be an issue. Guess I will find out. But the ease of build for anyone with access to a simple hardware store makes it worth a shot.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2022, 05:06:12 PM »
Hi Floor and captainpeacan, 

I think there is a 12 hour long Modify time period available for any member to edit the already posted text, counted from the time of posting. 

Captainpeacan, thanks for measuring the DC resistance, it is relatively high but surely the AmperTurns can also be considerable, especially if you can increase the supply voltage to have increased coil peak current.

Gyula

Floor

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2022, 07:24:13 PM »
Copied to here from the "new-electromagnet-configuration-4-times-out-verses-in" topic


There are several methods of approach in regard to electro permanent magnet interactions.

No doubt.  In some conditions the combination of an electromagnet and a
permanent magnet will      increase         the magnetic force from the magnet.
They add up.

No doubt.  In some conditions the combination of an electromagnet and a
permanent magnet will       decrease      the magnetic force from the magnet.
They subtract.

There are other things that one might hope to accomplish.

for example...
 
The turning on and off of a magnetic current, by a method which might in some
ways be like unto the way a transistor can turn on or off an electric current.
I refer to this as      shunting      the magnetic current into another path or as
simply  shunting.

Some transistors use an extremely low amount of power to do that switching.

If a permanent magnet can be switched in that way, this would be free energy from
that magnet.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
Again copied to here from the
"new-electromagnet-configuration-4-times-out-verses-in"
topic

There are numerous related other approaches to the goal of gaining energy as well. 

Clarification of intent / approaches / design and some possibilities ?

We have concepts and / or designs,  wherein the intent is to
                                   suppress
a permanent magnet by means of the application of an opposing
electromagnet.  This is already being used in scrap metal lifting cranes
and so on.  No    direct    net gain here.
... ... ... ... ...
We have concepts and / or designs,  wherein the intent is to
                                      shunt
magnetic force in such a manner that the process of the
        cyclical, shunting and / or switching of that magnetic current from
shunted to un shunted,
                           will consume less energy than can be gained from
the energy difference between the application of that force when shunted and un - shunted.
... ... ... ... ...
We have concepts and / or designs,  wherein the intent is to
                                            balance forces
                 such that force vectors and / or other characteristics
              may be rearranged without a net opposition by magnetic forces
                                               and in turn
              those rearrangements give rise to  interactions which are profitable
                                      in terms of an energy gain.

... ... ... ... ...
We have concepts and / or designs,  wherein the intent is to
         stall or slow down in time / create some form of stasis in an event
                                     during which period we
                                     move a field or exit it,
                                                     or
                       in some other way alter some relationship/s
     such that force vectors and / or other characteristics may be rearranged without
                                                or with little
             significant opposition and there by profit, in term of an energy gain.
... ... ... ... ...
                  We have concepts and / or designs,  wherein the intent is
                   multiplications or additions (cascading) of force where in
                                                          there exits
                                                    no   apparent  gain,
                              because increases must be reversed or undone
                                             in order to proceed cyclically.
                                                                but
                      those forces can while in their multiplied state / conditions
                                                  give rise to changes
               which do not subtract from the energy used to cause reversal / undoing
                                                          and instead
                      only cause a delay in time in the macro world, of that reversal / undoing
                                   (apparently simultaneous to that reversal / undoing)
                                                              behavior
                               (which is  in some manner is like unto the behaviors
                                        of those, theorized, particles, which physics
                                                          has termed virtual).
... ... ... ... ...

                                              Some combinations of the above.

                                              Some of the above may be statements of
                                              essentially the same things.

                                              Other options.


Offline captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2022, 10:08:23 AM »
Just jotting down mental notes here for a bit:

I just did some initial tests of the coil before I start assembling. I wanted to understand the power needed and expected results. Well, I got results I was not expecting. I can't say they are entirely good or bad. Just that I expected something else.

First off, the only power supply I have available at the moment is a 12v 1 amp that actually tops out at 13.6v. My setup for this quick bench test was very simple. Hook the coil up to the power supply and increase the voltage very slowly and watch how the coil reacts. I was initially simply wanting know about what minimal voltage I was looking for to use when I assemble to get at the very least a running motor.
I have downloaded 2 apps for my phone. Pole Detector which is simply a N or S reading app to tell you magnet polarity. It also makes it easy just to see how far away from the electromagnet a pole can be detected at all. That other app is called Gauss Meter for which it does actually read the strength of magnetic fields. Both apps actually work very well for this simple test.

I was immediately seeing an increase in magnetic field with .5v and less than 10ma because it didn't even register yet. That is good news and shows that the 2200 turns of 30 awg  wire did not make to much resistance and is creating an effective magnetic field as others have said would happen, such as Adams when using high turns of small wire on the Adams Motor. Here is what I expected to see. I expected to see as I slowly increase the voltage, the strength of the magnetic field will grow at an even rate. But I expect a certain time of increasing voltage in which the permanent magnet will be fully projecting forward and there will be a strong increase in field. After which the increase in voltage should make less of a difference in the magnetic field because there would no longer be much advantage to having a permanent magnet embedded. But.... instead, I saw a simple linear increase in field strength all the way to max 13.6 volts the power supply can deliver. The effects were following the exact same results. The distance away from the electromagnet it detects the pole is increasing linearly in the exact same way. Not exactly as I expected, yet completely understandable.
But here is where I got a bit confused. The design I am trying to implement first, is using permanent magnets on the rotor as well and not just iron. The plan is to let the magnet attract to the core of the coil on the way in, and just past TDC, turn on the coil and release the permanent magnet field inside it to appose the rotor magnet and force it away with what I assume would be a nice strong push for a smaller amount of energy input.
But that is also not what I am seeing. The magnet is still attracted to the core when the voltage is maxed out. There seems to be a little repulsion at dead center, but the slightest move to the side, it attracts to the washers of the core.
This tells me that the core is not fully saturated and the actual full strength of the permanent magnet inside the core I do not believe has even been opened up yet.
It appears to me that this is not a good setup for a simple 12v power supply to run. I had hoped it would be enough. It seems like I will need to be pulsing it with up to 30 volts as I have seen others do on other pulse motor designs such as tinmans work in another thread. I will try and come up with a stronger power supply, but until then, I will use some batteries in series and capacitors to try and figure out what voltage releases that force of the permanent magnet from the core.

Not bad results. I guess for some reason I expected to see a lower voltage to have the results I was looking for. But the thin wire is not pushing through high current for low voltage to do as I expected. I will have to use high voltage to get there. Current needed is of course something I will find out.


Offline gyulasun

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2022, 09:43:37 PM »
Hi captainpecan, 

Jack Hildenbrand wrote about 8 to 10 W input to his electromagnet coils for his valve to operate as he expected if I recall correctly.  Your input power is around 2.3 W or so (considering 13.6 V and 80 Ohm coil resistance). Of course the iron sleeve, the magnet size and strength etc he and you used can be different (Jack never wrote about his coils data) but from your test observations I also think the input power is too small to open up the permanent magnet's  field locked into the washers. And when you increase the supply voltage beyond 13.6 V which seems to be a must, you will need to reduce the test time to as small as possible to prevent overheating the coil. At say 40 V the 80 Ohm coil may dissipate 20 W, so the intermittent testing is preferred, forcing you towards the pulsed operation (as you mentioned).   

Note also that the washers have air gaps between them (however tiny they are) and this may make overall "core" saturation even more input power demanding than in case of a solid sleeve, besides the fact that cores with an open magnetic circuit from the coil's point of view involve a certain input power demand in itself too. 

If you have a Variac, I suggest to build a simple variable DC supply using a diode bridge across its output with say at least a 100 VDC rated electrolytic filter cap (47 uF - 100 uF would be enough). I know a Variac autotransformer is galvanically not isolated from the mains but using it with care for such tests it may be okay.  If you have a step-down mains transformer say to 15 or 24V, it may be used in reverse, driven from the Variac and rectify its (primary) output, this would already be safe and galvanically isolated from the mains.   Unless you find other solutions to increase DC voltage

In case your magnet (enclosed inside the washers) can be removed relatively easily, then a kind of comparison test could be made between the electromagnet alone and the permanent magnet also alone. Check the magnetic field strength of the permanent magnet from a few cm distance.  Then do this with the electromagnet (with no magnet inside) for the same distance to have field strength comparable to that of the permanent magnet while varying the input voltage to the coil. Of course you need to act fast to avoid overheating when input voltage is increased to some ten volts and higher. This test is not an accurate comparison of course, perhaps good for a rough estimation on coil input power. 

Gyula

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2022, 04:34:13 AM »

@gyulasun,

I agree with pretty much everything you said. It's good to hear your thoughts on the process. I think it's also possible to reduce power to get to the release of the internal pm field by decreasing the thickness of the core needed to get saturated. In other words, as nice and easy as using a stack of washers is, using a thinner pipe option may actually be preferred. The washers are pretty thick in width and could be overkill and just require more power to reach the "release" point of the pm. Jimbo had mentioned the pipe idea a bit. I would like to wind a coil using pipe as a test also but as of now I am having a hard time finding a ferrous material pipe that my current magnets fit properly in. I'll keep it in mind amd keep looking for options as I work forward with what I have.
I tried removing the magnet after the coil was completed because doing those type of split tests was already on mind. But now I can't get the magnet out of it. I may need to use much more force to remove it now. Which is frustrating because it slid in and out as easy as possible before. So before I accidentally screw up the coil I have, I'm going to try and get the power needed figured out to use it the way it is.  But of course it's all a work in progress and I learn best from stuff that doesn't work as expected. But it really is an intriguing concept and pretty exciting. Hopefully everything keeps looking better and better.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2022, 05:51:05 AM »
A little bit of research at K&J magnetics, it shows that for my 12mm by 12mm (1/2" basically) magnets, it only takes 2mm and above of plate to saturate one side of the field. That makes me believe if I cut the thickness surrounding the magnet to between 2mm and 4mm, it may greatly decrease the amount of energy needed to release the pm field from the core. It would easily make the core at least 2 or more times thinner. I think I will try wrapping a magnet with some layers of 1mm sheet metal I can easily cut with tin snips. Or maybe i can find a 12mm ID bushing i can work with that is megnetic. May be worth a little try before I go much further.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2022, 03:25:58 AM »
I decided to test my theory a bit and make another coil. I found some spacers that work great for my use and they are 3mm wall thickness. Kind of expensive buying them this way, but I only needed 2 to test my theory. I could not find 1 that was the length I needed or I would have done it all in one piece. I needed it slightly longer than the magnet because i need to put 2 or 3mm of steel on both ends of the magnet, and all need to be enclosed inside the spacer and copper windings.
I also knew I was not going to have enough wire from this spool to get 2200 turns like the other one. But I did want to have some center taps at 500 turns, and 1000 turns so I cam see how the effect of the added turns is. Maybe it no longer helps at a certain point? Just gives me more control to test things.
The coil looks a bit crappy, and 1 of my taps wasn't lined up where I wanted it. But the center is easily removed and I cam replace the permanent magnet with solid core for testing as well. After the coil dries a bit more, I'll hopefully get to test it out tonight.
The spacer I used is less than half the wall thickness. If there is any significant difference, it should show.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: Permanent magnet assisted motor coil designs
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2022, 03:48:12 AM »

The coil looks a little crappy. But I made the coil with 2 center taps
500 turns 11.6 ohms
1000 turns 25.5 ohms
The spool was almost empty so I just ran the last of it on the end so it was 600 more turns.
The total of the coil is.
1600 turns 45.4 ohms.


Hopefully I can have some test results soon.