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Author Topic: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !  (Read 22718 times)

Offline ZeroFossilFuel

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Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2007, 11:29:08 PM »
I think someone else mentioned it, but is it possible to use the fuel injection rails to introduce the hydroxy into the engine? I want to try as much as possible to introduce the hydroxy into the engine of the cars I am working with. I have a '90 Dynasty that currently just needs me to replace some fuel lines that lead to the rails from the main fuel lines and a '90 Grand Am that I need to find an engine for.
I too would like to know if anyone has done this. I doubt they would flow enough volume though. Seems to me that you would have to accumulate hydrogen alone under pressure to mix with air and/or O2.

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Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2007, 11:29:08 PM »

Offline Draco Rylos

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Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2007, 11:56:25 PM »
I know that under normal conditions, the fuel rails are under high fluid pressure which causes the injectors to spray the fuel like they do.  Most people that have been experimenting with hydroxy have been getting lower pressures from their cells. Then they use the vacuum to draw the hydroxy into the cylinders. There is an inherent danger of using the fuel rails though, because of the hydrogen could leak out of the rail when the engine is not running and cause explosive gases to build up under the hood. That seems to be one downside that I have thought about when trying to figure out how to run an engine using the fuel rails and fuel injectors. The injectors would probably have to be modified as well to get enough gas into the cylinder to maintain the engine RPMs. I have also seen some files that have pressure cutoff switches that turn the cell off when the cell reaches a certain pressure, sometimes low pressures sometimes higher pressures.

Offline MeggerMan

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Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2007, 12:07:17 AM »
Hi ZFF,
I too tried to reply to your latest EFIE mods on Youtube (posted today - Sat. 1st Sept 2007), I think the problem lies in a Javascript error on the page - maybe they wrote for IE7 but forgot to test it on other browsers like IE6/Firefox 2 etc.
Its quite amazing that such a small amout of HHO in the mix can effect the oxygen sensor output so much, was it about 500mV without and 600mV with HHO.

If you add HHO into the fuel directly before it gets to the injectors, surely this will cause an air lock and mis-inject of fuel.

How about passing the HHO through an air stone into the fuel so that the HHO is disolved into the fuel - if that is possible.  Maybe similar to the Geet process.
I suppose if you can get the hydrogen and oxygen atoms to bind with the petroleum molecules then you have a fuel that burns cleanly, creates less heat and more importantly, greater downward force on the piston.
After all, if the fuel was to burn very very slowly then the piston would probably not move at all.

Regards
Rob




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Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2007, 12:07:17 AM »
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Offline rickter

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Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2008, 12:35:30 AM »
Or perhaps inject the HHO with a T just befor the fuel pump so it is on the low pressure side, is drawn in and presurized to be delivered with the fuel. I am also wondering if the o2 extenders theat pull the sensor out of the exhaust streem work to control the signal or is the computer chip better?
Thanks
Rickter

Online ramset

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Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2008, 01:30:07 AM »
Nice Idea but the pump will cavitate     That is unless your talking about diaphram pump    Chet

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Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2008, 01:30:07 AM »
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Offline Jonny Q

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Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2008, 04:30:00 PM »
   I think the best bet while running a HHO gasoline mix to inject the HHO into the intake. Reasons being is, HHO being in a gaseous state mixes easier with other gases(in this case, Oxygen) where as it doesn't mix so easily with a liquid and could cause pockets of HHO resulting in a unstable burn where one burn has more or less HHO or gasoline than another burn. Also I'm pretty sure that no HHO cell produces more pressure than any vehicles fuel pump so if your try injecting the HHO into the gas line between the pump and injector rails your probably going to get more gasoline in your HHO line than HHO in your engine.
   I believe fuel pumps run upwards of 55psi and trying to run a hydrogen cell that high is suicide making injecting HHO into the intake your most reliable, safest and therefore your best bet. probably the same for trying to run straight HHO and no gasoline. unless you could retrofit the current injectors to inject HHO instead, but even still i think you'd see better performance from the vacuum of your intake which is suppose to help your cell create more HHO in return.

So if i understood correctly...people have been running straight HHO (no gasoline) into there engines with no need to replace parts with stainless steel?? even exhaust?? i am going to have nightmares once i try gettin my engine to run on straight HHO, i can see myself prying off the head and seeing nothing but rust. anyone know of a site where they have documented fairly extensive tests with both HHO/gasoline mixes and straight HHO?

Offline vdubdipr

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Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2008, 01:41:29 AM »
i think, the easiest mothod to prevent rust, instead of coating your engine internals with ceramic meterial, witch would be expensive, maybe we could switch back to gasoline for the last couple of minutes to dry everything up.... instead of having a "turbo timer" that runs the engine too cool off after the car is shut off maybe we could have a hydrogen timer to run the car on gas for a pre detemined amount of time to eleviate any concerns with rust... what???

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Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2008, 01:41:29 AM »
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Offline joemumu

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Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2008, 07:09:24 AM »
Hello all,

I have been searching the net for a calculation I am trying to make.  I have found some calculators, but I would like for someone to verify the numbers.  I hope someone can help.
I am trying to get how many liters/minute of gas come out of a pipe with .062 diameter inches at 5 PSI.  I'm not concerned with the length of the pipe or the smoothness of the walls.  I'm just looking for the volume one could expect out of this setup.

I didn't know where else to put this question.

Thank you

Offline vdubdipr

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Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2008, 09:48:47 PM »
put one hose in a bucket of water under a 2 liter bottle filled with water, then use a stop watch to see how long it takes

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2008, 09:48:47 PM »
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Offline joemumu

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Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2008, 11:05:45 PM »
@vdubdipr

Yes I understand how to measure HHO output as you described.  I am looking for a validation of the amount that should be produced at 5 PSI described in my previous post.  I suppose I should tell you why this is important to me.  A video I saw on youtube showed a 5 HP engine idling on straight hydrogen supplied from a tank.  The narrator commented that the gas was fed into the engine directly into the intake (there was no carburetor).  There was 5 PSI coming out of the end of the feed tube which had been reduced at the end to .062 diameter.  This is a good benchmark for knowing how much gas needs to be produced to run an engine.

Thank you

sulake

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Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2008, 11:27:47 PM »
Last summer I tested a small electrolysis cell that produced quite little amount HHO. No difference in the engine sound/tone was noticed when I powered the cell. So I attached it to my -87 Mazda 929 2.0i. No pulseing or nothing, just straight to battery via a relay.
After a 5 days the engine broke, bearing plate between the crankshaft and piston rod melted, because there was no oil!  :)
No oil leakage either, so it was weird... ???
Now I saw a comment on YouTube that if the ignition is not retarded, this will happen. HHO will be ignited and burned before the piston get's to the top dead center, trying to push the piston backwards so to speak... This is true ofcourse, cause the HHO burns much faster than gasoline, that must be ignited early.

But, is it true that this (not retarding ignition) can cause the oil to burn/consume much faster???
This was quite expensive experiment since machining cost ~400€ and other parts ~150€....  :P
I will make bigger cell with Mayer pulsing power source soon, this time I'll adjust the ignition :)
Some pics ...
http://mfiekw.tuk.livefilestore.com/y1pddlMuCifWfTwkqax-kkJxyDDjvt4kLQKgPq3eo7FOzuE07ZYJH_P5DuBbYAy2UtgzYK0QyfjT-c/mazda01.jpg
http://mfiekw.tuk.livefilestore.com/y1pddlMuCifWfSo-IEwsEGp6STlfQ5J7SPSkV1i0leMJwyWNwvd1GWMEpMZHfFHSz1lRvC1tddUPIo/mazda929-2.0i-motor.jpg
http://mfiekw.tuk.livefilestore.com/y1pddlMuCifWfQzemGPS33sqaXDMtrus3ymIgFGCsoXafcrxmnPy5d_CO12sWpIkp03OcVnM3IRf2Q/mazda-crankshaft.jpg
(http://mfiekw.tuk.livefilestore.com/y1pddlMuCifWfQKSeh0JKehmmfmS8-pieFUb2trQyVdXKHub081ckhLzoAEECvhsNz_eCMoIlupRQk/IMG_2568.JPG)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2008, 11:27:47 PM »
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sulake

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Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2008, 11:52:31 PM »
@joemumu

Here is a calculator that can be used I think. It tells that flow rate is 4.27 litres/minute (261 in^3 / minute) or (0.151 ft^3 / minute)
I'm not sure but this is what it says, if the pipe length is 100mm (3.93in). If the length increases, flow rate goes down.
Here is the calculator:
http://www.pipeflowcalculations.com/airflow/index.htm

Offline vdubdipr

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Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2008, 12:44:03 AM »
oh sorry,  ive seen the same w/ the john deere and also wanted to do that. so i built a cell that would hold up to pressure because i couldnt think of a way to put it under pressure later, my cell can hold 135 psi but i got it up to 27 psi and then thought if a diesel engine uses heat from compressed air at 145 ish psi to ignite diesel gas i should stop so i did,  figuring hydroxy is alot more unstable. i just havent had the money to create that much hho since then, because well, the walleyes are running right now so that where all my spending money goes..fishing 

Offline joemumu

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Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2008, 01:58:46 AM »
@sulake

Thank you for verifying those numbers.  It seems as though it would take almost 5 liters/min to keep a 5HP engine running at idle.  If these numbers are correct it seems as though we'll be running HHO supplementing petroleum use at the moment.  To me, this is still a viable add on, as Zerofossilfuel reported a 20% increase in gas mileage.  If I recall correctly he was producing 1.74 l/min with what seemed to be a fairly compact fuel cell.  If you haven't seen his videos on youtube, I suggest you check them out.  He has amassed a great deal of knowledge and shares data freely with us all.
Sorry to hear about your engine.  IMHO I would be skeptical of the damage being blamed on the HHO alone.  5 days doesn't seem like much time to do that damage.  Is your engine computer controlled?  The condition you described would cause preignition as you said.  The computer would retard the timing with the signal it gets from the knock sensor.  If your vehicle is equipped with O2 sensor(s) the signal to the computer would make it richen the fuel to compensate for the extra O2 it sensed.
The no oil thing is really goofy.  How many miles/km does the engine have?   Has anyone seen this before?
There is a wealth of information on this site.  How long have you had your current fuel cell in operation?  Or how long would you estimate it has been under power and producing HHO?  I'm sure someone will be able to help you figure out why your HHO production seems low as well as any other issues you might encounter.  It takes some time to condition the plates.  They seem to produce more HHO after extended use.  Good luck.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 01:30:19 AM by joemumu »

Offline Jonny Q

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Re: Feeding Hydrogen into engine tips !
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2008, 06:14:11 AM »
Quote
Now I saw a comment on YouTube that if the ignition is not retarded, this will happen. HHO will be ignited and burned before the piston get's to the top dead center, trying to push the piston backwards so to speak... This is true ofcourse, cause the HHO burns much faster than gasoline, that must be ignited early.

<a href="http://premium.hotlinkfiles.com/files/1195962_wjfdv/Chapter10_Automotive_Systems.pdf"> Chapter 10_Automotive_Systems <a/> check out pages 10-55 thru 10-57 it explains well why you need to delay your ignition. i find it hard to say that if your running a HHO and Gasoline mix to blame it on the HHO itself, trying to run straight HHO in a engine without adjusting your timing would surely ruin an engine quickly.

it takes a sec to load, it's a big pdf

Quote
After a 5 days the engine broke, bearing plate between the crankshaft and piston rod melted, because there was no oil! 
No oil leakage either, so it was weird...


@sulake, it is possible that the increased and more rapid combustion damaged a piston ring, especially if your engine was igniting the fuel just before or at TDC (top dead center) did your car burn some oil and produce smoke once you added the cell or before you added the cell? did you notice any oil in the radiator fluid? It is also possible that the added combustion blew a seal or gasket and leaked the oil onto the ground while you were driving it, but if your engine didn't leak the oil out onto the ground and you weren't burning it then something doesn't match up, cause 3 or so quarts of oil doesn't just disappear  :)

 

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