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Author Topic: Stanley Meyer information  (Read 1475 times)

Offline Sergh

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Re: Stanley Meyer information
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2022, 11:40:36 AM »
so tried. So the dissociation of water does not work.
 A much higher voltage is needed for dissociation.

Why then does electrolysis run on 3 volts, you ask? Oh no, this voltage is not between the plates.

The voltage is applied across a very thin gap less than a nanometer wide.

Therefore, more than 5 million volts per millimeter is actually needed for electrolysis in the volume of water.

In any case, even if you were able to apply 5 million volts to the electrolyzer plates and this voltage did not break anything. Will such dissociation be of low energy cost? The same electrolysis will be obtained as with a voltage of 3 volts.

I assume that Stanley Meyer said and wrote in the patents not what it really was. Not at all. Absolutely nothing about how it worked. Like many inventors, he did not aim to teach how to do it, but only to earn money for himself. Like any business around you. In this case, he could not tell any truth.
 
Quote
The IHP's small thickness creates a strong electric field E over the separating solvent molecules. At a potential difference of, for example, U = 2 V and a molecular thickness of d = 0.4 nm, the electric field strength is
     E =   U/d   =    2    V / 0  ,  4    nm     = 5000    kV/mm   
https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/da4ba8df31ae5505297a4dce9eb6dbc380ba0a9f To compare this figure with values from other capacitor types requires an estimation for electrolytic capacitors, the capacitors with the thinnest dielectric among conventional capacitors. The voltage proof of aluminum oxide, the dielectric layer of aluminum electrolytic capacitors, is approximately 1.4 nm/V. For a 6.3 V capacitor therefore the layer is 8.8 nm. The electric field is 6.3 V/8.8 nm = 716 kV/mm, around 7 times lower than in the double-layer. The field strength of some 5000 kV/mm is unrealizable in conventional capacitors. No conventional dielectric material could prevent charge carrier breakthrough. In a double-layer capacitor the chemical stability of the solvent's molecular bonds prevents breakthrough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-layer_capacitance

Offline kolbacict

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Re: Stanley Meyer information
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2022, 12:50:12 PM »
Quote
The drawback to using water is the short length of time it can hold off the voltage, typically in the microsecond to ten microsecond (μs) range.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_capacitor

Offline pauldude000

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Re: Stanley Meyer information
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2022, 04:03:13 AM »
Quote
Thus, in certain unusual situations, such as the generation of extremely high voltage but very short pulses, a water capacitor may be a practical solution

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_capacitor


Yes, water needs high frequency operation.... and? 1 microsecond to 10 microsecond pulses for 50% duration pulsed DC square wave, you are talking 500khz -- 1 Mhz for a full wave requires one microsecond for either AC or DC. 10 microseconds is equivalent to 100Khz full wavelength.



At DC 50% duty cycle, half of that is voltage at ground, so the voltage pulse is only half as long in time as the full wave cycle. You can run at much lower frequency by lowering the duty cycle. A Pulsed DC wave at 5 Khz and 25% duty cycle is a pulse length of 10 microseconds (same length pulse as 50% at 10X higher frequency or 50Khz), so you see how it works.
 
So, for 1 microsecond pulses to 10 microsecond pulses, we are only talking 50Khz to 500Khz using 50% duty cycle, or 5Khz to 50Khz 25% duty cycle, pulsed DC. No sweat, and within general range of what Stanley Meyer stated in one video. This range is the resonance frequency range needed for the LC circuit and would be the optimum matching input cycle for maximum resonance.

One microsecond sounds tiny, but in electronics is nothing. There are CMOS 555 timers stable out to 1 Mhz.


Paul Andrulis

Offline pauldude000

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Re: Stanley Meyer information
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2022, 05:37:15 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_capacitor


I want to thank you for that link. I read the entire article. There were some interesting tidbits of information in there. I might actually start using water capacitors for some of my hiher frequency coil hobbies now.


Paul Andrulis

Offline kolbacict

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Re: Stanley Meyer information
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2022, 07:46:14 AM »
The field strength of some 5000 kV/mm is unrealizable in conventional capacitors. No conventional dielectric material could prevent charge carrier breakthrough. In a double-layer capacitor the chemical stability of the solvent's molecular bonds prevents breakthrough.
But there is no current in the capacitor. Can this cool electrical double layer of yours exist in the absence of current ?

Quote
So, for 1 microsecond pulses to 10 microsecond pulses, we are only talking 50Khz to 500Khz using 50% duty cycle, or 5Khz to 50Khz 25% duty cycle, pulsed DC.
But spark gaps do not operate at frequencies of tens of kilohertz. They are quite inertial.
In this regard, I have a question, how can a water Marx generator work?  :)
Wesley once suggested that radioactive materials were used in the spark gap. ;)
But really, I don't know...

Offline pauldude000

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Re: Stanley Meyer information
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2022, 03:13:10 AM »
But spark gaps do not operate at frequencies of tens of kilohertz. They are quite inertial.
In this regard, I have a question, how can a water Marx generator work?  :)
Wesley once suggested that radioactive materials were used in the spark gap. ;)
But really, I don't know...


You quote part of my post for these questions, specifically where I refer to pulse length of 50% duty cycle square wave frequencies in reference to time in microseconds. This has nothing to do with spark gap discharge which is inherently an AC phenomena, even considering lightning, so as such has nothing to do with a Stanley Meyer unit.


With that in mind, spark gaps are indeed capable of high frequency discharge though, as you would understand if you had built spark gap based primary circuits for Tesla style coils. In such units, a high voltage capacitor is inline with the primary air core coil, with a spark gap placed across the terminals. A high voltage input (DC or AC) is placed to charge the capacitor until the stored voltage overcomes the resistance of the air in the spark gap, then a high voltage electrical arc occurs through said gap. To someone expecting perfection, they would expect a smooth even transfer in only one direction until the charge on both sides of the  capacitor is equalized, however this is not the case. The electrical arc creates a plasma in the air gap, which conducts electricity quite well. The energy in this case surges from one plate of the capacitor back to the other for many cycles until the charge is equalized or until the conducting plasma "wire" is dispelled. This type of a system naturally produces a high frequency electrical oscillation. However, a simple two point spark gap is limited on the maximum frequency attainable. Tesla experimented with blowing currents of air through a spark gap to intentionally disperse the plasma, and rotating multiple gaps, but ultimately settled upon what is called a "quenched" spark gap (a gap with relatively large surface areas spaced closely together, basically an air capacitor designed to allow intentional breakdown). You can achieve high Khz to low Mhz range with such.


I am not currently familiar with the Marx Generator, or its proposed method of operation so cannot comment. One project at a time, lol. Is it related to Browns Gas or HHO devices or some such? You have to be careful when working on a project to kick such things to the curb until you have accomplished the current task, or you will find yourself inadvertently polluting your own project with hybridized notions about what is happening or how/why the inventor did something, which has a high probability of being incorrect. Straying off of the logical path is far too easy to do at the best of times.


Paul Andrulis





Offline kolbacict

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Re: Stanley Meyer information
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2022, 08:22:03 AM »
Quote
The energy in this case surges from one plate of the capacitor back to the other for many cycles until the charge is equalized or until the conducting plasma "wire" is dispelled.
Yes, but there are no coils in the Marx water generator.
As they are not in any other high-voltage Marx generator.
There is Tesla in the transformer, but not in Marx.
Therefore, it is not clear what will create high-frequency filling between discharges.

Offline pauldude000

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Re: Stanley Meyer information
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2022, 01:22:59 AM »
Yes, but there are no coils in the Marx water generator.
As they are not in any other high-voltage Marx generator.
There is Tesla in the transformer, but not in Marx.
Therefore, it is not clear what will create high-frequency filling between discharges.


Transformer + high frequency does not automatically equal tesla. There is no "tesla coil" in this device.


Paul Andrulis

Offline pauldude000

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Re: Stanley Meyer information
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2022, 07:32:30 AM »
so tried. So the dissociation of water does not work.
 A much higher voltage is needed for dissociation.

Why then does electrolysis run on 3 volts, you ask? Oh no, this voltage is not between the plates.

The voltage is applied across a very thin gap less than a nanometer wide.

Therefore, more than 5 million volts per millimeter is actually needed for electrolysis in the volume of water.

In any case, even if you were able to apply 5 million volts to the electrolyzer plates and this voltage did not break anything. Will such dissociation be of low energy cost? The same electrolysis will be obtained as with a voltage of 3 volts.

I assume that Stanley Meyer said and wrote in the patents not what it really was. Not at all. Absolutely nothing about how it worked. Like many inventors, he did not aim to teach how to do it, but only to earn money for himself. Like any business around you. In this case, he could not tell any truth.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-layer_capacitance


Voltage is cheap, and for that matter amperage is cheap, but watts are expensive (combination of the two). 1,000 volts at .001 amp = 1 watt, or .001 volts at 1,000 amps = 1 watt. The problem is that regular electrolysis is using AMPERAGE not voltage to break down the molecule. Saying 3v is meaningless, as it is the minimum voltage necessary to deliver the 10 to 15 amps being used, and the 30 - 45 watts for low output is horrendously expensive. It is literally using massive amounts of current to physically knock hydrogen atoms off of the water molecule by brute force.


Now, Stanley's device is based around a different principle, specifically a pulsed electric field placed between two plates, with water in between that stretches the molecule using ion attraction to an induced strong field, then rapidly slaps the molecule while it is stretched to break the covalent bonds. It is not just "pulling" the hydrogen atoms off using brute force but with voltage instead of amperage. If it were, then the system would be just as expensive as electrolysis.


A simple example of loading can be experienced with a pop can. If you press down, pre loading the structure, then press the side of the can it will rapidly crush with much less force needed than is you simply tried to crush it without pressing the side. The water molecule is a V shaped structure with somewhat moveable arms, The bonds tend to keep it in the V shape. Each Hydrogen atom is charged with one polarity, while the oxygen atom is of the other polarity. When immersed in an electric field it pulls both the hydrogen atoms in one direction, while pulling the oxygen atom in the other, thus putting physical stress on the molecule -- preloading the structure.


Paul Andrulis

Offline kolbacict

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Re: Stanley Meyer information
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2022, 07:06:44 PM »
pay attention to frequencies.
Where did Meyer get those frequencies from?

Offline pauldude000

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Re: Stanley Meyer information
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2022, 04:44:37 AM »
pay attention to frequencies.
Where did Meyer get those frequencies from?


Like most people when examining someone else's tech, you are making a fundamentally incorrect assumption. The frequencies are not specific to a water molecule in any sense of the word. The PULSE WIDTH of the frequencies are specific to the energy storage TIME inherent to a capacitor with a dielectric which happens to be water. I emphasize the specific terms to show you why the frequencies are important, not that I don't think you can't understand.


The minimum time the dielectric will hold the charge and the maximum limit the range of effective frequencies. With 50% duty cycle DC square wave signals, only half of the entire wave is high voltage "on" time, while the other half is spent at 0v. The only part of the wave that matters to us is the "on" section, so this decreases the frequency by 50%. Say a given batch of water dielectric will hold a charge for only 1 nanosecond. Our pulse on time needs to be 1 nanosecond long. This pulse time Stan modified as a wave-train of back to back positive pulses with a miniscule gap between each.


All of the pulses combined in each wave-train equal the necessary to our 1 nanosecond time limit before the dielectric sheds the charge, so each pulse is further strengthening the field in the dielectric, putting both dielectric and electric field stresses on the water molecules (voltage as well as charge based stresses), until covalent bonds are overcome by the combination. The concept is quite simple. Any longer of an "on" time is a waste of energy, any shorter would be less efficient. Technically, the frequency would be governed by the dielectric value of the water being used.


Paul Andrulis