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Author Topic: Milkovic's Pendulum  (Read 2387 times)

Offline Johnsmith

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Milkovic's Pendulum
« on: January 11, 2022, 03:36:24 PM »
  With Bessler's drawing Mt 85, this gets into both torque and force. And I started this thread because
this will be more about the science of how a pendulum works and some of the math behind it. And as
Milkovic has shown https://youtu.be/935Ktoxw1fM, timing does matter.
 Bessler shows a swinging weight pumping water in a machine. And to reset the fulcrum of the pendulum
requires the use of a cantilever. In the 2nd image, weights not shown help to raise the bridge. Elevators
also use a weight so the elevator itself might not have much weight when it comes to it being lifted. That
helps to save energy.
 With how efficient a pendulum is, when Milkovic's pendulum drops down, can some of that energy be
used to accelerate his pendulum? And this is where considering f = ma will help. This is because the
downward force of the pendulum is caused by inertia (I = ma) and gravity. Yet the movement of the pendulum
is lateral to the flow of gravity. That is the main reason why it's efficient. And now we're discussing engineering.

p.s., a ratchet type mechanism might work with this concept. It could help to
control when the pendulum is accelerated.

Online kolbacict

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Re: Milkovic's Pendulum
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2022, 06:49:36 PM »
Does a self-running double Milkovich pendulum actually exist?
It didn't work out for me. It didn't work out yet. ;)

Offline Johnsmith

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Re: Milkovic's Pendulum
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2022, 11:14:42 PM »
Does a self-running double Milkovich pendulum actually exist?
It didn't work out for me. It didn't work out yet. ;)


   I'll make a design engineering drawing this coming weekend. With his pendulum, it might
be able to pump water while operating perpetually. And from my experience with Bessler's
wheel, designing it is the easy part. Fabricating it can show design flaws which means that
work that's been done has to be done again.
 I'll give you some hints, everything but the ratchet forest mentioned is in the 2 drawings.
This is a test, right?

Offline Johnsmith

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Re: Milkovic's Pendulum
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2022, 03:11:26 AM »
 To consider how to go perpetual with Milkovic's Pendulum first we need a pendulum. Am I right or am I right?
And with the work that I'm doing on Bessler and having to make tooling, go to the store, just didn't have much
time for this but threw together a quick model.
 A bonus hint, the pendulum swinging towards you will be swinging upwards. The model took only about
an hour to do so didn't put much thought into it. With how the pendulum's are positioned, the back would be
dropping while the pendulum in front is swinging upwards. Yet the crossbar is parallel to the ground. This would
show that the back is dropping faster than the pendulum is swinging upwards. It will take some getting used to
thinking about how a Milkovic pendulum functions.
 That is something that needs to be considered. The swinging pendulum's greatest velocity will be at bottom
center below its fulcrum. And then it will start slowing. There are some issues with how this function matters.
And this might be where it can be improved and why there is this thread.
 And a 2nd bonus hint, it is possible that Milkovic limits the tilt of the crossbar. Otherwise it might be difficult to
time the swing of his pendulum for show. A shorter radius for the swing allows the pendulum to oscillate more
quickly. And it won't perform much work, why he does it for show. It's to get people interested in his work
which is a good idea.

p.s., what I might do is as I add each component, maybe someone will understand what I'm doing. If so then they
can say how they figured it out. But can I test the testers? Hmm? I dunno know.

p.s.s., I happen to like the pic just so you know. Can we play Jenga! with an idea or are we on Jeopardy?  Hmmm!?!

 Alex, I'd like to take perpetual motion for 1,000.

p.s.s.s., I have contacted Milkovic and he can follow this thread if he wants to. I have previously discussed his work
with his son so who knows. It's been over a decade and no one has come up with anything yet. Still, according to him
his work on this is to help support those who lack something as basic as a water pump.
 His website; https://www.veljkomilkovic.com/indexEng.htm
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 05:43:04 AM by Johnsmith »

Online kolbacict

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Re: Milkovic's Pendulum
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2022, 08:44:46 AM »
I have a question why an ordinary pendulum (not double) on a stand
swinging for so long.  In his video, which he compares it to spinning a flywheel
that stops much faster. Within a minute, it is still swinging.
I can't do that. Even with very good bearings, my pendulums stop in half a minute. ???

p.s.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6pHcgtK5Os
It's mine. :)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 01:13:01 PM by kolbacict »

Offline Johnsmith

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Re: Milkovic's Pendulum
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2022, 04:14:53 PM »
I have a question why an ordinary pendulum (not double) on a stand
swinging for so long.  In his video, which he compares it to spinning a flywheel
that stops much faster. Within a minute, it is still swinging.
I can't do that. Even with very good bearings, my pendulums stop in half a minute. ???

p.s.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6pHcgtK5Os
It's mine. :)


  Most likely the stand that he is using doesn't let him give his pendulum a harder push. What helps to determine
how long it swings is the amount of energy that you give it. Also if you watch it at .25 speed, the fulcrum is
lifting when the weight is swinging from right to left. That decreases the drop of the weight.
 In this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1cKWIAFT0I it can be seen that the swing of the pendulum is
not timed with its lift or drop. If you watch only the crossbar you'll notice that its movement is haphazard. To attempt
perpetual motion, that timing would need to be corrected.

Online kolbacict

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Re: Milkovic's Pendulum
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2022, 05:18:58 PM »
Quote
Most likely the stand that he is using doesn't let him give his pendulum a harder push.
The vibrations of the table at the appropriate frequency can energize the pendulum ...

Offline Johnsmith

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Re: Milkovic's Pendulum
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2022, 10:35:20 PM »
The vibrations of the table at the appropriate frequency can energize the pendulum ...


  The table doesn't directly interact with the pendulum so it really can't influence it. As I work through the design
of what might allow a pendulum to swing perpetually you'll understand why. What everyone will need to consider
is the math behind how a pendulum swings. What this will allow is to time the difference between when a pendulum
swings with a stationary fulcrum and a fulcrum that drops. For a perpetual pendulum it really won't be necessary
but it does show how the length of the pendulum and its period is influenced by gravity. And by not understanding
this, it would be difficult to make one perpetual.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9xm9RPVgdw

Offline Johnsmith

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Re: Milkovic's Pendulum
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2022, 02:35:36 AM »
 I tried going to the next step on the pendulum and I think SketchUp wants me to upgrade to SketchUp Pro @ $300 a year.
I can work around that by downloading my drawings and going to my local library. This will slow things up but I do have
my build which I'm trying to get ready so I can start testing again.
 With the details I added to the pendulum, they're pulleys but with the program dragging just have to wait to do more.

p.s., with something like this, if a person was familiar with blueprints or 3D design programs then just an outline would be needed.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Milkovic's Pendulum
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2022, 12:47:20 PM »
Does a self-running double Milkovich pendulum actually exist?
It didn't work out for me. It didn't work out yet. ;)


Pumpjacks are not self running, no.
They can be almost as efficient as a large clock
Minus the cost of operating the pump.




Offline Johnsmith

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Re: Milkovic's Pendulum
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2022, 04:02:28 PM »
 Pulleys are for lifting. If someone works it out then fine. Repeating what is already known
does not allow anyone to consider where pendulums get their energy from or how work cab be
manipulated. And what can prevent someone from considering something when is seeing criticism
posted. Critics rely on others failing to show they know something everyone has accepted.
 And yet the biggest skeptics are found in perpetual motion forums. I'll be having enough work to do
on my Bessler build. Because I damaged  my 2 1/2 in. dia. hole saw, I'll need to pour some new
weights with a different shape. Just wanted to use the weights I have. And it is a lot of work modifying
my build. Why it has taken months of work.
 And since I think my Bessler wheel can work, I've actually been targeting March/April as when I can
it working. And as you guys know, most people won't do a serious build like I do. That's because of the
amount of work involved.

p.s., The "Keel Effect" prevented any discussion. It had to be accepted as a law of science. And it is.
A body at rest will remain at rest unless acted on by another force. Newton's 1st law of motion.
Of course, I would say that such people are running a scam. The 1 st law of thermodynamics allows
for energy to be conserved.

Online kolbacict

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Re: Milkovic's Pendulum
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2022, 04:25:59 PM »
So I think it would be possible to use some of the water from the pump to push the pendulum.
However, they don't. Instead, there is a man.

Here is also my replication.
https://youtu.be/V6HM7awIS4k
If you think about it, this is also a double pendulum.Isn't it?
The top ball in the gutter is Maxwell's pendulum. And below the usual pendulum.
I did not succeed in self-sustaining oscillations. :(

Offline Floor

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Re: Milkovic's Pendulum
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2022, 04:43:11 PM »
I have a couple of basic questions, I think I need to know, if I am to
better understand these interactions.


1. Do pendulums remain in motion longer than do balanced spinning wheels ?

2. Do balanced spinning wheels remain in motion longer than do
unbalanced spinning wheels ?

   floor

Online kolbacict

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Re: Milkovic's Pendulum
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2022, 01:15:23 PM »
Is it possible to maintain undamped oscillations of Maxwell's pendulum parametrically by pulling its suspension at the certained time moments?

Offline Johnsmith

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Re: Milkovic's Pendulum
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2022, 04:01:53 PM »
Is it possible to maintain undamped oscillations of Maxwell's pendulum parametrically by pulling its suspension at the certained time moments?


  With the pendulum, the reason it tilts to the left is the load (weight) placed on the fulcrum to the right becomes less when the pendulum
is not swinging under it. This is why I suggested to people to watch the video and to notice what the crossbar is doing. This shows how
the swinging pendulum and the idle pendulum interact with each other.
 The basic idea is for when the pendulum swings inward for it to be hoisted another 3º or 4º of rotation/swing. This would be possible
because the idle pendulum would be further from the fulcrum of the crossbar than the pendulum being hoisted up. And for a pendulum to
swing perpetually it will need to be lifted.
 This is where timing the swing of the pendulum and the movement of the crossbar would need to be properly timed. And this is where
knowing how to calculate the period of a pendulum and the inertial force it generates would matter. This is because the swinging pendulum
is the opposing force to the idle pendulum. Which side will drop and how quickly will that happen? That is what would need to be known.
 Since I'll have time, I'll be able to download the pendulum skp file (SketchUp uses .skp) and go to the library. I use public transportation so
I could spend more time riding the bus than working on it. I will need to consider upgrading.