Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

2022 builders survivor board => Floors MMM-2 builders board => Topic started by: floodrod on January 10, 2022, 03:02:27 AM

Title: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on January 10, 2022, 03:02:27 AM
Hello All,

I plan to do a series of rudimentary experiments in attempts to measure the net gain or loss in real life mechanical processes using magnets.

For my first test, I am almost finished 3D printing the pieces in the image below. Although it is not a 100% accurate test, as angles and such are not perfect, hopefully it will give me a good place to start.

First testing Concept:

A small speaker voice coil actuator with a throw between 6-7mm will slide two 6.5mm cube neos at a teeter totter contraption which will also hold two of the exact same magnets (1 on each side), hopefully causing the teeter totter to take motion like a pendulum.

The magnets in the slider arm will be opposite polarity. ie.  positive / negative.  The magnets in the teeter totter Y will also be one positive, 1 negative facing towards the inside. On the inward stroke, one side of the teeter totter will be repelled, as one attracted, and vise versa on the outward stroke.

The actuator will be powered with DC, switching polarity between each movement via a motor control.

To ensure "Leverage" isn't corrupting the results, I designed the teeter totter equal.  from center of bottom neo to center of bearing measures exactly 40mm.  From center to bearing to center of hammer is also 40mm.  Hammer and magnets are exactly the same size (except hammer length).  I hope this will quell worries that leverage is playing a role. 

Testing Plan

I do not have a laboratory, so I will have to make due with what I can scratch up.  I will try my best to get force ability from the voice actuator alone, and also force ability from the hammer (after magnetic works take place).

I have no means to calculate losses in the bearing (cheapo one), but I will try to get before and after results the best I can.

It will take me a few days to finish this first test with work schedule and what not-  but I hope by weeks end I will have some results to share.

Any tips, suggestions welcome!

Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: Floor on January 11, 2022, 03:56:54 AM
How's it going floodrod dude ?
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on January 11, 2022, 05:11:23 PM
Hey floor,

12-hour work days make it difficult to get much done during the week, but my weekend starts soon.

I started building the contraption but hit two roadblocks. First being the magnet sticking together. So I need to make some governor to keep the magnets from getting too close.

Next roadblock is that the voice coil does not reciprocate perfectly straight. I may have to rig up a bearing contraption to solve that one too.

I ordered some test equipment to measure torque which will require me to design a little differently, but despite the roadblocks, results will be coming shortly.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: Floor on January 11, 2022, 10:24:28 PM
No worries and no pressure from here.
Every bit is appreciated.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on January 13, 2022, 05:30:35 PM
Update :

The sloppy rig has been constructed and working.  You can see it in action here..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53H1Q5cbqE8

A torque measuring device should be arriving today sometime.  I will have to fiddle to find a way to measure with and without the magnetic action, but if it comes early enough today I will attempt to get some results.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: Floor on January 13, 2022, 06:05:55 PM
Looks great !

In order to know the energy present in the flips...

You 'must' measure the force present at multiple and
small increments of dispalcement, else there is no data.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: synchro1 on January 13, 2022, 06:41:25 PM
Hey floor,

12-hour work days make it difficult to get much done during the week, but my weekend starts soon.

I started building the contraption but hit two roadblocks. First being the magnet sticking together. So I need to make some governor to keep the magnets from getting too close.

Next roadblock is that the voice coil does not reciprocate perfectly straight. I may have to rig up a bearing contraption to solve that one too.

I ordered some test equipment to measure torque which will require me to design a little differently, but despite the roadblocks, results will be coming shortly.



This kind of Spline would help align the voice coil. This one is ceramic with precision ball bearings in the sleeve.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on January 13, 2022, 06:42:31 PM
Looks great !

In order to know the energy present in the flips...

You 'must' measure the force present at multiple and
small increments of dispalcement, else there is no data.

Hmm..  perhaps you could critique my plan before I waste time..

I have the torque device coming (pic attached)..  The center 1/4" rod of the rig turns with the pendulum thingy..

I was going to rig up the torque measuring device on the 1/4" shaft and record the torque generated on each throw..

After that data is collected, I was going to remove the governing posts, and relocate the speaker Perpendicular to the shaft.  Then have the speaker push the pendulum with direct contact while measuring the torque.

My thought was this should give me a pretty good comparison of torque generated when the speaker is directly and physically pushing the pendulum, and when magnetic sliding works are pushing the pendulum.

Is this logic not accurate?
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: Floor on January 13, 2022, 07:12:07 PM
Measuring of the peak forces only,       very often    does not reflect the
total amount of energy present in the motions.

Because the magnets are pushing and / or pulling through out the motions, not
just       during         the peaks of  their forces.

example..
The peak force can be greater in one of the actions rather than the other.
Yet the total energy present in that greater peak force action
                         is actually less than
the total energy present in the other action which has a smaller peak force.
                                or not
                                    or
              those two totals may be equal.

If we are looking for a net gain in the system, we have to consider the energy
present         throughout        the actions.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on January 13, 2022, 07:18:19 PM
Measuring of the peak forces only,       very often    does not reflect the
total amount of energy present in the motions.

Because the magnets are pushing and / or pulling through out the motions, not
just       during         the peaks of  their forces.

example..
The peak force can be greater in one of the actions rather than the other.
Yet the total energy present in that greater peak force action
                         is actually less than
the total energy present in the other action which has a smaller peak force.
                                or not
                                    or
              those two totals may be equal.

If we are looking for a net gain in the system, we have to consider the energy
present         throughout        the actions.

OooOOooo

Well now I am lost .  I have no idea how to take measurements.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on January 13, 2022, 07:30:19 PM
I suppose recording the same setup in a video of each test.

Setup some ruler device behind the reciprocator and use some mirrors so I can get the torque reading and the ruler in the same view.

Then review the video frame by frame notating torque per unit of ruler-derived measurement in increments. ?
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: Floor on January 14, 2022, 12:27:47 AM
Are you up for learning how ?
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on January 14, 2022, 01:35:14 AM
Are you up for learning how ?

Absolutely!  Been checking the thread hoping for some advice..

I think we can toss out my torque idea, as the meter finally came, but I doubt it will move the needle at all.

Thanks for any help
 
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: Floor on January 14, 2022, 02:09:40 AM
Very cool.  Lets try and rock this. 


Here are the basics (bottom of reply #64) @

https://overunity.com/18988/ressurected-tinman-new-invention/msg562797/#msg562797

probably start with the small file, "Magnetic Force Measurement.pdf ".
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on January 14, 2022, 04:39:58 AM
Very cool.  Lets try and rock this. 


Here are the basics (bottom of reply #64) @

https://overunity.com/18988/ressurected-tinman-new-invention/msg562797/#msg562797

probably start with the small file, "Magnetic Force Measurement.pdf ".

Thanks for the links and help, but I am afraid I am over my head here.

Making a pulley on bearings and lifting weights=  No problem..  But the thing moves from start to finish in milliseconds.. Getting displacement numbers in timed intervals with any type of accuracy is beyond me. And honestly, math isn't my strong suit.

But I am not done tinkering!  Perhaps you can help me find an easier way (btw-  I acknowledge your proposed method is the most scientific)

What about using this to spin a shaft.  Then weighting the shaft to compare maximum weight I can spin + at what RPM using mechanical direct contact force verse sliding magnetism action. I understand what you said that this is not measuring total power, but I would imagine a test like this would tell me if the sliding magnet action gives me more torque and/or RPM than the source could without the sliding action if used in the application of spinning a shaft.

 

Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: Floor on January 14, 2022, 05:40:45 AM
It's easier than you think.

It will go something like this.

Measure the output work first (as just   one    of the flip flops)
The work done in those two motions is equal (one to the other).
Only one needs to be measured in order to know what the other is.

No electric input for now.

Manually position the pulsing magnet to one of its positions
(extended or retracted).
Lock it into that position (somehow).

What you measure is the force needed in order to pull the flipping magnet from
the strokeing magnet.

Those measurements are done in small increments of distance.

Grock that around for a little while and we can look into it in a little more detail
later on / before / if you decide to actualy do any measurements.

   later




Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on January 14, 2022, 05:54:24 AM
Sweet- I appreciate you taking the time.  I will set that up tomorrow and post ya

You da man!
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on January 14, 2022, 04:46:05 PM
The closest the magnets get is somewhere about 4mm spacing, and furthest is about 9mm spacing (roughly).

I could construct the pulley / string rig and mount a hanging scale. Position the magnets in sticking position as you specified, and use the attached printout to keep uniform spacing in 1mm increments. 

Slowly apply force till the separation point and record the weight measurements at each 1mm increment to achieve said separation.

I wanted to run it by you before I print away and construct

Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: Floor on January 14, 2022, 08:31:28 PM
excellent...

note: correction of my first drawing from  "floodrod 1-14-22a.PNG"
       as
"floodrod 1-14-22a2.PNG"

so sorry

Also note that in the second drawing, that magnet is illustrated at 90 deg. wrong.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: Floor on January 15, 2022, 03:25:03 AM
Eventually you do a statement of the parameters of the device.

A sketch

Physical dimensions of the magnets used.

The type of magnets used (N42 or what ever).

The polar orientations of each magnet.

The polar orientations of the magnets in relationship to each other.

Radius of the rotation of the flipping magnets from the center of
     the axis of rotation, to the center of the magnet.

The number of degrees of the rotation of the flipping of the magnets (one direction).

The total length of the straight line travel, of the flipping of the magnets, as measured
      (one direction).

Others?

... ... ... ... ... ...
Then move on to probably, the electric power   input   into the device.


    P.S.
It is not critical that a pulley is used in order to maintain a pull which
is tangential.  One may manually adjust the direction from which pull is
applied, for each measurement in order that it is tangential. 

Because the change in degrees during rotation in this device is small, even
some error here will not be very significant I think.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: Floor on January 15, 2022, 08:55:22 AM
In the attached drawing   "Lucs Force Multiplication.png"
the "RO" stands for rotating.  This drawing is from an old topic.
The lable "RO counter weight not shown"  does not apply to this topic.

When a pulley is used rather than a lever, the pull direction
is always at 90 degrees to a line which is from the center of rotation
(tangential).  If the weight or force application string, is attached to a
lever one must be careful to maintain the correct direction of pull.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on January 15, 2022, 12:18:26 PM
In the attached drawing   "Lucs Force Multiplication.png"
the "RO" stands for rotating.  This drawing is from an old topic.
The lable "RO counter weight not shown"  does not apply to this topic.

When a pulley is used rather than a lever, the pull direction
is always at 90 degrees to a line which is from the center of rotation
(tangential).  If the weight or force application string, is attached to a
lever one must be careful to maintain the correct direction of pull.

This way looks much easier.  The shaft is directly in the center of the teeter.

But I have a little emergency first- the header manifold on my 3 zone furnace is pouring water- and a storm coming monday in the dead of winter..

I need to attend to my houses heat .  Ill be back
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: Floor on January 15, 2022, 04:56:42 PM
Do your thing. We will see you when when we do.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on February 15, 2022, 01:58:26 AM
Floor-  Move this where you will..  Not incredibly scientific data in the least..  I was just doing some initial testing to decide how to setup my jigs for actual tests. NO RPM DATA AVAILABLE YET.  Perhaps in the next few days when I am off work.  And no exact measurements.  Just raw data for now.

Spinning Slowly at 5.43v and .52 amps. (2.82 watts) unloaded.  Moving an identical magnet as close as I can freehand, input power peaked at 5.43 volts, 1.63 amps. (8.85 watts) An increase of 6.03 wattsThat is a 213.83% increase in input energy. with an obvious decrease in RPM.

Next- Spinning rather quickly at 11.98 volts and .9 amps.  (10.78 watts). Moving the same magnet as close as I can freehand peaked at 11.98 volts and 1.15 amps (13.78 watts).  An increase of 3 watts. That is a 27.83% increase in input wattage. With no visibly noticeable decrease in RPM

From this non-scientifically performed test- I am am calculating---> 27.83 is an 87% decrease of 213.83.

And as I said- I did not measure RPM but I am all but guaranteed we lost MUCH MORE RPM at less efficient slower speeds than high speeds..

I filmed it here-  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTZslwyYV0c

I will repeat this with controls in place in the coming days



Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on February 16, 2022, 11:29:07 PM
OKAY!  So my first controlled test should be taking place today. I have the testing jig with some guides to control variables in place.

The Setup-  magnet spacing and steadiness will be controlled.  Volts, amps, (later calculated to watts) will be written down.  RPM's will be measured and written down each step. And several input range wattages + several RPM's will be tested.

Here is a video how the control slider works  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLx0rA27tnQ

I expect to be posting a little later with some spreadsheet numbers

Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: Floor on February 16, 2022, 11:49:57 PM
       8)
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on February 17, 2022, 01:35:45 AM
OK well the results pic is going to go off the screen.  Sorry I know some don't like that, but it is what it is..

4 tests done. 

Test 1-  992 RPM-  11.1% power increase. 27 lost RPM's
Test 2-  1254 RPM- 16.61% power increase. 29 lost RPM's
EDIT***  Test 3-  1570 RPM- 0% power increase. 0 RPM Lost
Test 4-  2155 RPM- 0% power increase- 25 RPM lost

(I did a test 5- but the numbers are starting to jump too much.. but it looked like no additional power input and about 20 RPM lost at about 2600 RPM.  )

I have all recorded if one wishes to review it

I will need to move the magnet closer and repeat this. 
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: Floor on February 17, 2022, 02:53:47 AM
Poles are on the broad faces of the magnets ?

When rotating the magnet by hand...

The forces encountered between the magnets go in this order ?

1.  (twisting) applied force is against attraction while the magnet's broad faces are
      parallel  (unlike poles are diverging from one another due to rotation)

2.  (twisting) applied  force rapidly       increases      with increased rotation. Maximum

3.  (twisting) applied force begins to     decrease       as the rotating magnet approaches
     90 degrees off from its initial position

4.  at 90 degrees off from initial position the (twisting) applied force needed to cause
     rotation is at a    minimum   but is still required  to cause rotation.

5.  (twisting) applied force begins to   increase     as the rotating magnet approaches
     parallel to the fixed magnet. (like poles approaching / facing one another / repelling)

6.  (twisting) applied force peaks (second to most maximum)  then rapidly decreases to zero

7.  At precisely parallel the force drops to zero.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on February 17, 2022, 03:25:47 AM
Poles are on the broad faces of the magnets ?

When rotating the magnet by hand...

The forces encountered between the magnets go in this order ?

1.  (twisting) applied force is against attraction while the magnet's broad faces are
      parallel  (unlike poles are diverging from one another due to rotation)

2.  (twisting) applied  force rapidly       increases      with increased rotation. Maximum

3.  (twisting) applied force begins to     decrease       as the rotating magnet approaches
     90 degrees off from its initial position

4.  at 90 degrees off from initial position the (twisting) applied force needed to cause
     rotation is at a    minimum   but is still required  to cause rotation.

5.  (twisting) applied force begins to   increase     as the rotating magnet approaches
     parallel to the fixed magnet. (like poles approaching / facing one another / repelling)

6.  (twisting) applied force peaks (second to most maximum)  then rapidly decreases to zero

7.  At precisely parallel the force drops to zero.

Instead of trying to relay and chancing communication error- I recorded a video of me rotating it with explanation of pole location and alignment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIQSWBnWL6E
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: Floor on February 17, 2022, 07:10:49 AM
We readers now have the basic parameters...

Much better than if we are left to just guess or assume.


Good.

    Thanks.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on February 17, 2022, 02:12:42 PM
We readers now have the basic parameters...

Much better than if we are left to just guess or assume.


Good.

    Thanks.

Thanks- I want to repeat this with the magnet closer to see if there is a matching pattern using the same input power / RPM.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on February 17, 2022, 08:07:49 PM
Stationary magnet has been moved closer- and 7 tests performed.  Test #7 had a good amount of vibration and is questionable. Others I feel were reliable.

Test 1 started at the point where the spinning magnet still spun smoothly loaded.  Any lower- it begins to pause and chop the motor.

With this round, the big jump in efficiency came somewhere around 2000 RPM.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on February 17, 2022, 10:47:03 PM
I repeated the test yet again, but this time replaced the stationary magnet with a piece of heavy steel to see the effects.

The results are all within the margin of error telling me this effect does NOT work on Magnet against Metal.  RPM Loss and Increased power are all pretty relative all RPM's tested.

It's a shame because this effect would be easier to build upon if it did affect all ferrous metals. But I guess it's also good, as it gives a little more credibility to the Magnet on Magnet testing.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: Floor on February 18, 2022, 02:30:37 AM
It's still a good test to have done / thought
provoking (one magnet only) . 


                                           :)
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on February 18, 2022, 02:57:10 AM
It's till a good test to have done / thought
provoking (one magnet only) .

Yeah, I agree..  And it makes more sense to me now.( i think ::))

With magnet on magnet- I do not think it's a "shielding" effect.  Since it only worked with the dual magnets, I would venture to say "The quicker the poles flip, the closer it gets to neutralization of the fields". 

I do still think this can be used to reset a device (magnet on magnet).  but implementing it is another challenge..  The one i think might work would be a setup similar to the old calloway V-Gate.  When the gate is approaching, the rotor triggers a sensor which causes the stator magnet to spin quickly, thus neutralizing the flux between it and the gate - allowing the rotor to pass the gate.

But the V-gate would probably have to work on repulsion so initiating the neutralization spinning cycle would have no attraction between it and the rotor, and it would have to be able to stop spinning on the exact polarity to continue the rotor rotation.

I already started printing a V-gate like rotor to tinker with.

If you have any thoughts on how to harness this- please do not be shy.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on February 22, 2022, 01:14:35 AM
For my next test, I plan to make some jig that will allow me to spin an identical magnet between 2 stationary magnets of the same size.  Testing both attraction and repulsion forces between the 2 stationary magnets as the center one spins at variable speeds.  Also to be tested is drag exerted on the spinning magnet ( like previous tests) if surrounded by magnets on both sides.

Obviously the hope is that a spinning magnet between 2 stationary ones results in some neutralization or shielding effect between the stationary magnets without adding much resistance or increase of power to spin the magnet. This would make building a motor much easier.

I kind-of tested this with the dogbone rotor by eye- but the magnets were not in direct flux alignment, and I did not have any variables in place, so any assumption is not valid at this point.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: Floor on February 22, 2022, 07:14:56 PM
I'm still checking in.

Keep logging the data, describing the parameters, so on.

At various points, this stuff will coalesce, understandings emerge in ones mind
and a next direction forward will again become clear.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on February 24, 2022, 03:12:39 AM
Thanks Floor- even if no one is watching- I'm still going to progress..

The printing is underway and the design has changed a bit for 2 reasons. First what I can logically design to test with. Second is for usability in constructing a motor if the test is successful.

So there will be a round disk over 2 times as long as the teste stationary magnets.  The disk will be filled with as many small 12x6x2mm neos I can squeeze on it all in alternating polarity. (the red boxes represent where magnet groupings will go- but as mentioned, each small magnet alternating).. This disk will be mounted on a motor which is in turn mounted on linear sliding rails.  So I will be able to smoothly slide the spinning disk evenly on the linear rails.

Next there will be a stand with 2x 40mmx20mm neos with an air gap between them.  The bottom magnet will be adhered to the platform, the top magnet will be able to be pulled away for testing.

1.  First test is to see how much force is required to separate the 2 big magnets without any influence from the spinning things.
2. Then slide the spinning disk between the 2 neos using the linear sliding rig described above. And test how much force to separate the magnets.
3. Test several RPM ranges keeping tabs on input power required at each interval.

The hope is that the magnetic spinning disk first acts like a piece of ferrous metal would, blocking (redirecting) the flux between them.  While also hoping that neither magnet will want to stick or repel to the spinning disk because the polarity flipping cancels the forces out.

If this works, it may solve a very big problem we all know of.  We all know magnetic shielding would hold the key to free energy, but the problem is anything known that deflects magnetic fields is ferrous, and in turn subject to the magnetic fields.  I always assumed these forces are tied together or "coupled".  For instance, whatever power one might gain from using ferrous shielding would be lost pulling the shielding out of the flux, thus making shielding a pipe dream.   But perhaps turning the very nature of magnets against themselves may hold some answers.

Anyway- here are 2 example images of what I am making.  Hopefully in the next 2 days or so I will have some results to share

Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: Floor on February 24, 2022, 04:25:46 PM
Thanks floodrod It's appreciated by at least some.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: lancaIV on February 24, 2022, 05:03:00 PM
As periodically visitor I think by Your attempt in a concept by a german developper/applicator


https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=26&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19860619&CC=DE&NR=3602039A1&KC=A1 (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=26&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19860619&CC=DE&NR=3602039A1&KC=A1)


Machine for obtaining energy, without any hazardous materials, in accordance with the energy principle of nature


                                is this a known textbook principle ,                             


                                  the energy principle of nature
                                                 ?
                                  defined,determinated ?




The max. force is to receive from a wheel/rotor ( centipetal/centrifugal) WHERE ?






By wish this becomes deleted !


wmbr


OCWL
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on February 24, 2022, 05:23:12 PM
IancaIV-  Thank you for the interesting link. I have never seen such info till now.  I would very much like to see pictures and more information on what is described within your link.

I can not comment much on the German developer's project or theory. But it does seem many similarities exist.

I would say this project is aimed at seeing if flipping of magnetic fields can be used as "shielding" or if thus action cancels out magnetic influence against another magnet/s.


Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: lancaIV on February 24, 2022, 08:47:11 PM
From the same :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=2&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19800514&CC=DE&NR=2848427A1&KC=A1#
Entering in the espacenet 100 Mio + invention patent/application pages

and on the left for example entering "Description"

there to see "Translate this page into "         and           "Selected language"

and  beside : the automatic translator button in red ( GOOGLE TRANSLATOR QUALITY )

so there is mostly no barrier to not get the personal most favorated language for patent object expla(i)nation !
wmbr
OCWL
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on February 24, 2022, 10:07:28 PM
From the same :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=2&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19800514&CC=DE&NR=2848427A1&KC=A1#
Entering in the espacenet 100 Mio + invention patent/application pages

and on the left for example entering "Description"

there to see "Translate this page into "         and           "Selected language"

and  beside : the automatic translator button in red ( GOOGLE TRANSLATOR QUALITY )

so there is mostly no barrier to not get the personal most favorated language for patent object expla(i)nation !
wmbr
OCWL

The description in that latest link eerily reminds me of one of my past motor builds here-  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcOtwfQNck4

And I did make one with a horseshoe electromagnet shape, which definitely whipped.. 

I may revisit that idea afain in the near future
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on February 24, 2022, 11:25:51 PM
Sneak peak of the testing rig ready for later tonight...  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKV5g8KNXro

The scraping sound you hear when the slider is under the magnets is the bottom vibrating against the end rail stop.  I will have to use a hand clamp when testing to lock it in place.

I am printing measuring sticks now to measure distance between the magnets at different intervals. And this test MAY NOT include RPM data.  I do have a hand cheapo RPM meter- but I am not sure I trust it.

I felt the forces by hand out of curiosity, and I can say I did not feel much difference in attraction forces either way.  But perhaps a trend will emerge when I test tonight..

I will post back later tonight with results.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on February 25, 2022, 02:01:12 AM
A BIG Hype-Up for Bogus Results!

I started testing and saw like practically no changes in magnetic pull between the magnets at any speed.  So there was no need to continue.

Win some- Lose some.. 
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: Floor on February 25, 2022, 05:02:44 AM
It is very good I think,
                 that you have now  tested this for your self.

That near to nothing effect,
                   is what I myself,  at one point, referred to as ...

                                    "an amazing transparency to the magnetic forces"

It was not the result / data I had hoped for / expected at that time, at all.
                   It was in fact, very much so, to the contrary of what I had hoped for.

What a trip ay ?

I had to simply accept the info and stow it in the ole cranial data base.

Thanks very much for the good build and demo.

   best wishes  :)

             P.S.     
             My test was something like a cross between your last one
             and this, your present build.  Your demo is valid confirmation.
                 thanks..
                    also
            Yours is a much better build and demo than was mine at that time.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on March 12, 2022, 06:24:42 AM
I was looking into magnetic neutralization when I decided to get out parts I already had to experiment.  I like what I am seeing...  This is nothing new- we see it with switchable magnets.  But I have not seen it with an air-gap (no metal on metal friction except bearings)..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtjhqboovCQ

I tried closing the loop at the bottom with steel (only leaving the top open) and to my surprise, the magnetic pull force seemed to get weaker.  The 1 magnet I am using is 2 times as wide than it is think. If I double it up, it should be a buttload stronger. 

I haven't done any measurements, but it got me thinking..  With a 4 wing metal-only rotor and 2 of these, it may be usable.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on March 15, 2022, 03:00:39 AM
Tonight my parts were done with my next toy, so I assembled a sloppy version to test it out..  Many of these projects I am seeing and am interested in require some sort of reciprocation or a linear actuator.  So I want to build a killer actuator with lots of power with as little input as I can.

I rigged up an electromagnet and 2 permanent magnets on linear rails and controlled it via an ardiuno to test.  I have no idea how to test this besides stringing up a scale, but even that is questionable because I think I would need to measure the throw, as it becomes quite obvious that the force decreases as the throw decreases (and movement increases). And the power input changes depending on speed between polarity flips.

I am hoping people could throw ideas at me with this....  How to get the most bang for my buck?  How to lower input power to bare minimum while preserving force?  Iron core or air coils best?  Stacking more permanent magnets on top of the 2 large ones will add force?

Collecting flyback voltage?  What gives me the most flyback collection ability?  High voltage / low amps?  Will collecting flyback hurt of help the actuator in any way? 

I can already think of several uses for this actuator and by observation, it seems to be much more powerful than the old speaker setup I am used it.

I look forward to any feedback...  See the device here-  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngOzXVPkzl8      8)

The video might be a bit long as it shows several speeds of magnetic pole flipping with all action..

Thanks in advance

Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: gyulasun on March 15, 2022, 04:05:14 PM
Hi Floodrod, 

You ask good questions...   8)    Member gotoluc here asked quasi the same questions, see here:
  https://overunity.com/8429/mostly-permanent-magnet-motor-with-minimal-input-power/ (https://overunity.com/8429/mostly-permanent-magnet-motor-with-minimal-input-power/) 
 https://overunity.com/8429/mostly-permanent-magnet-motor-with-minimal-input-power/msg214772/#msg214772 (https://overunity.com/8429/mostly-permanent-magnet-motor-with-minimal-input-power/msg214772/#msg214772) 
  https://overunity.com/8429/mostly-permanent-magnet-motor-with-minimal-input-power/msg318864/#msg318864   
                     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa1dO8qWPQU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa1dO8qWPQU)   

Quote
   Collecting flyback voltage?  What gives me the most flyback collection ability?   


see here for instance:   https://overunity.com/7679/selfrunning-free-energy-devices-up-to-5-kw-from-tariel-kapanadze/msg352483/#msg352483 (https://overunity.com/7679/selfrunning-free-energy-devices-up-to-5-kw-from-tariel-kapanadze/msg352483/#msg352483)  and  https://overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/msg336989/#msg336989 (https://overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/msg336989/#msg336989) 

These links do not answer all your questions though... but at least may give you some further pieces of knowledge.

Gyula

 
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on April 16, 2022, 12:49:57 AM
Thanks gyulasun.  i reviewed your info and will be referencing it again in the future.

Many new ideas have been popping, so I just tested the actuator on a lenz-free device I saw posted on youtube some time back.  And once again I am intrigued by the idea..

The main idea is that lenz only occurs in the coil itself, not affecting input power at all.  Lenz is just governing output power per coil.  But I am wondering if it is possible to just keep adding coils as needed till it goes overunity.   The only increase of input power as I see it would be the weight being added.  But that could be dealt with.

Check the video out of it in action..  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-244zEUQTM

Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: gyulasun on April 16, 2022, 11:59:44 AM

 
The main idea is that lenz only occurs in the coil itself, not affecting input power at all.  Lenz is just governing output power per coil.
 

Well, I am afraid the small output you get explains the seemingly no Lenz effect... for the magnet moving inside the coil receives the back and forth movements from the actuator, that is the source of the output. 

You would need to check how the input current to the actuator changes when your generator coil (with increased number of turns or even adding further coils) produces comparable output power to that of the actuator input.   

I wonder what kind of Lenz free device you managed to see on youtube?   8)   Did it get disappeared? 
 
Thanks for showing your tests.
Gyula


Thanks gyulasun.  i reviewed your info and will be referencing it again in the future.

Many new ideas have been popping, so I just tested the actuator on a lenz-free device I saw posted on youtube some time back.  And once again I am intrigued by the idea..

The main idea is that lenz only occurs in the coil itself, not affecting input power at all.  Lenz is just governing output power per coil.  But I am wondering if it is possible to just keep adding coils as needed till it goes overunity.   The only increase of input power as I see it would be the weight being added.  But that could be dealt with.

Check the video out of it in action..  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-244zEUQTM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-244zEUQTM)
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on April 16, 2022, 02:54:39 PM
 

Well, I am afraid the small output you get explains the seemingly no Lenz effect... for the magnet moving inside the coil receives the back and forth movements from the actuator, that is the source of the output. 

Gyula

Thank you for evaluating Gyula.

I do not doubt what you say, just struggle to understand the reason why.

The coil itself (along with the magnet) moves with the actuator.  Lenz will develop inside the coil as the flux increases inside the coil from the passing magnet, thus slowing the magnet's movement. This I do understand.  Lenz will govern the coils output.

But what I fail to understand is how this could stress the actuator itself (besides adding more weight by adding additional coils).  The actuator is only moving weight, and the weight stays the same whether the magnet is locked in position or free-sliding around (because we are moving the entire coil also). If anything, I would imagine the actuator input to go lower as Lenz builds because the magnet will not be bashing on the opposing side of the stroke so hard.

It is very possible I am not seeing the whole picture.  I post to learn and hear from others (like You).  But any explanation on to why this lenz inside the coil will stress the actuator would be enlightening to me :)
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: kajunbee on April 16, 2022, 03:13:41 PM
In a nutshell I believe it’s inertia. When coil is open magnet slides back and forth freely. When coil is shorted Lenz will oppose magnet. That magnet has some amount of inertia. Now your actuator has to fight that inertia. Not and expert but that’s the way I see it.
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: gyulasun on April 16, 2022, 04:05:16 PM


Well, I may have misunderstood your test setup here. I thought the magnet can freely move inside the coil?  If not, what causes induction in the output coil? Because the magnet+coil moves together with the actuator, no?   
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on April 16, 2022, 04:08:52 PM
In a nutshell I believe it’s inertia. When coil is open magnet slides back and forth freely. When coil is shorted Lenz will oppose magnet. That magnet has some amount of inertia. Now your actuator has to fight that inertia. Not and expert but that’s the way I see it.

Yes I can understand how this may come into play.  The dynamics of it get complicated to understand.

The actuator will obviously be ahead of the magnet, and the magnet will always trail the actuator. Since you are moving the coil against a magnet that is not traveling at the exact same speed and timed differently, yes lenz will be affecting the actuator.

So many questions!  This may end up on my list to experiment with at a later time when  I have nothing else going on. 
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: floodrod on April 16, 2022, 04:17:39 PM

Well, I may have misunderstood your test setup here. I thought the magnet can freely move inside the coil?  If not, what causes induction in the output coil? Because the magnet+coil moves together with the actuator, no?

Yes the magnet is enclosed inside the coil and can slide inside the tube past the coils. The tube is attached to the actuator.

I do see how Lenz could come into play now as the coil will be ahead of the magnet on each stroke, thus transferring the resistance to the actuator. .  The more I look at it, the more I start to think it's all relative. 
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: gyulasun on April 16, 2022, 04:25:07 PM
Yes, it "should be" like that and unfortunately the Lenz draw could be measured more readily when the output power would approach the input power to the actuator. 
(Whenever we measure or indicate current the low decimal digits resolution of the meter may hide small changes which may amount to tens of milliAmpers for instance.  I mention this in general.)
Title: Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
Post by: kajunbee on April 16, 2022, 04:38:43 PM
It looks as though ends of tube are taped off. Is air still able to move freely in or out of tube. Or is the magnet inside small enough to not cause air compression.