Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Google Search

Custom Search

Author Topic: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log  (Read 6370 times)

Offline floodrod

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 446
Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
« on: January 10, 2022, 03:02:27 AM »
Hello All,

I plan to do a series of rudimentary experiments in attempts to measure the net gain or loss in real life mechanical processes using magnets.

For my first test, I am almost finished 3D printing the pieces in the image below. Although it is not a 100% accurate test, as angles and such are not perfect, hopefully it will give me a good place to start.

First testing Concept:

A small speaker voice coil actuator with a throw between 6-7mm will slide two 6.5mm cube neos at a teeter totter contraption which will also hold two of the exact same magnets (1 on each side), hopefully causing the teeter totter to take motion like a pendulum.

The magnets in the slider arm will be opposite polarity. ie.  positive / negative.  The magnets in the teeter totter Y will also be one positive, 1 negative facing towards the inside. On the inward stroke, one side of the teeter totter will be repelled, as one attracted, and vise versa on the outward stroke.

The actuator will be powered with DC, switching polarity between each movement via a motor control.

To ensure "Leverage" isn't corrupting the results, I designed the teeter totter equal.  from center of bottom neo to center of bearing measures exactly 40mm.  From center to bearing to center of hammer is also 40mm.  Hammer and magnets are exactly the same size (except hammer length).  I hope this will quell worries that leverage is playing a role. 

Testing Plan

I do not have a laboratory, so I will have to make due with what I can scratch up.  I will try my best to get force ability from the voice actuator alone, and also force ability from the hammer (after magnetic works take place).

I have no means to calculate losses in the bearing (cheapo one), but I will try to get before and after results the best I can.

It will take me a few days to finish this first test with work schedule and what not-  but I hope by weeks end I will have some results to share.

Any tips, suggestions welcome!


Floor

  • Guest
Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2022, 03:56:54 AM »
How's it going floodrod dude ?

Offline floodrod

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 446
Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2022, 05:11:23 PM »
Hey floor,

12-hour work days make it difficult to get much done during the week, but my weekend starts soon.

I started building the contraption but hit two roadblocks. First being the magnet sticking together. So I need to make some governor to keep the magnets from getting too close.

Next roadblock is that the voice coil does not reciprocate perfectly straight. I may have to rig up a bearing contraption to solve that one too.

I ordered some test equipment to measure torque which will require me to design a little differently, but despite the roadblocks, results will be coming shortly.

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2022, 10:24:28 PM »
No worries and no pressure from here.
Every bit is appreciated.

Offline floodrod

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 446
Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2022, 05:30:35 PM »
Update :

The sloppy rig has been constructed and working.  You can see it in action here..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53H1Q5cbqE8

A torque measuring device should be arriving today sometime.  I will have to fiddle to find a way to measure with and without the magnetic action, but if it comes early enough today I will attempt to get some results.

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2022, 06:05:55 PM »
Looks great !

In order to know the energy present in the flips...

You 'must' measure the force present at multiple and
small increments of dispalcement, else there is no data.

Offline synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4697
Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2022, 06:41:25 PM »
Hey floor,

12-hour work days make it difficult to get much done during the week, but my weekend starts soon.

I started building the contraption but hit two roadblocks. First being the magnet sticking together. So I need to make some governor to keep the magnets from getting too close.

Next roadblock is that the voice coil does not reciprocate perfectly straight. I may have to rig up a bearing contraption to solve that one too.

I ordered some test equipment to measure torque which will require me to design a little differently, but despite the roadblocks, results will be coming shortly.



This kind of Spline would help align the voice coil. This one is ceramic with precision ball bearings in the sleeve.

Offline floodrod

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 446
Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2022, 06:42:31 PM »
Looks great !

In order to know the energy present in the flips...

You 'must' measure the force present at multiple and
small increments of dispalcement, else there is no data.

Hmm..  perhaps you could critique my plan before I waste time..

I have the torque device coming (pic attached)..  The center 1/4" rod of the rig turns with the pendulum thingy..

I was going to rig up the torque measuring device on the 1/4" shaft and record the torque generated on each throw..

After that data is collected, I was going to remove the governing posts, and relocate the speaker Perpendicular to the shaft.  Then have the speaker push the pendulum with direct contact while measuring the torque.

My thought was this should give me a pretty good comparison of torque generated when the speaker is directly and physically pushing the pendulum, and when magnetic sliding works are pushing the pendulum.

Is this logic not accurate?

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2022, 07:12:07 PM »
Measuring of the peak forces only,       very often    does not reflect the
total amount of energy present in the motions.

Because the magnets are pushing and / or pulling through out the motions, not
just       during         the peaks of  their forces.

example..
The peak force can be greater in one of the actions rather than the other.
Yet the total energy present in that greater peak force action
                         is actually less than
the total energy present in the other action which has a smaller peak force.
                                or not
                                    or
              those two totals may be equal.

If we are looking for a net gain in the system, we have to consider the energy
present         throughout        the actions.

Offline floodrod

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 446
Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2022, 07:18:19 PM »
Measuring of the peak forces only,       very often    does not reflect the
total amount of energy present in the motions.

Because the magnets are pushing and / or pulling through out the motions, not
just       during         the peaks of  their forces.

example..
The peak force can be greater in one of the actions rather than the other.
Yet the total energy present in that greater peak force action
                         is actually less than
the total energy present in the other action which has a smaller peak force.
                                or not
                                    or
              those two totals may be equal.

If we are looking for a net gain in the system, we have to consider the energy
present         throughout        the actions.

OooOOooo

Well now I am lost .  I have no idea how to take measurements.

Offline floodrod

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 446
Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2022, 07:30:19 PM »
I suppose recording the same setup in a video of each test.

Setup some ruler device behind the reciprocator and use some mirrors so I can get the torque reading and the ruler in the same view.

Then review the video frame by frame notating torque per unit of ruler-derived measurement in increments. ?

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2022, 12:27:47 AM »
Are you up for learning how ?

Offline floodrod

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 446
Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2022, 01:35:14 AM »
Are you up for learning how ?

Absolutely!  Been checking the thread hoping for some advice..

I think we can toss out my torque idea, as the meter finally came, but I doubt it will move the needle at all.

Thanks for any help
 

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2022, 02:09:40 AM »
Very cool.  Lets try and rock this. 


Here are the basics (bottom of reply #64) @

https://overunity.com/18988/ressurected-tinman-new-invention/msg562797/#msg562797

probably start with the small file, "Magnetic Force Measurement.pdf ".

Offline floodrod

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 446
Re: Floodrods Magnetic Testing Log
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2022, 04:39:58 AM »
Very cool.  Lets try and rock this. 


Here are the basics (bottom of reply #64) @

https://overunity.com/18988/ressurected-tinman-new-invention/msg562797/#msg562797

probably start with the small file, "Magnetic Force Measurement.pdf ".

Thanks for the links and help, but I am afraid I am over my head here.

Making a pulley on bearings and lifting weights=  No problem..  But the thing moves from start to finish in milliseconds.. Getting displacement numbers in timed intervals with any type of accuracy is beyond me. And honestly, math isn't my strong suit.

But I am not done tinkering!  Perhaps you can help me find an easier way (btw-  I acknowledge your proposed method is the most scientific)

What about using this to spin a shaft.  Then weighting the shaft to compare maximum weight I can spin + at what RPM using mechanical direct contact force verse sliding magnetism action. I understand what you said that this is not measuring total power, but I would imagine a test like this would tell me if the sliding magnet action gives me more torque and/or RPM than the source could without the sliding action if used in the application of spinning a shaft.