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Author Topic: Kundel With Electromagnet Build  (Read 7264 times)

Offline synchro1

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2022, 08:54:07 PM »
I believe Romeo UK's N-S polarity repels the N pole at TDC and the BEMF pulse width is sufficiently wide to attract the oncoming S pole magnet. I noticed a tiny yellow capacitor in the circuit that sustains the power

The possibility of placing additional output coils around the rotor with no additional drag effect on it is awesome!

Offline floodrod

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2022, 12:46:45 AM »
Thanks Syncro...  I read up a bunch on it..  Still have gray areas and shy of understanding it all, but I do understand the concepts..

The biggest parts will be done printing by tomorrow morning.  Once I get a basic model working I will post the results then go from there step by step..

Keep tuned as I will certainly be looking for input-  but I do feel I can certainly build this

Update:  It will take a bit longer than I anticipated..  Finished 1 part that took 26 hours and turns out the new reel of Filament I used is absolutely horrible...  I guess I can use it for light non-weight bearing parts, but it is some eco-friendly recycled stuff that has absolutely no strength and too brittle to trust.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2022, 03:05:35 AM »
Progress Update:

So I am using very strong magnets I have on hand to experiment with before building a detailed model.  I figured I would make it horizontal shaft instead of vertical so it will spin true without wobble with the materials I have.   But this orientation may be difficult if I construct the Adams style generator that goes with it, so on the next modem I "may" go flat.  Not sure yet.

I spent several hours trying to source magnets like Adams describes.  4 to 1 ratio with poles on the ends.  Boy it's very difficult finding magnets that match these specifications..  But I did manage to find N42's which are 2" long by 1/2" x 1/2" which have the correct polarity AND they conform to his 4 x 1 suggestion.  Pic attached- They should be strong enough for a small to medium model.

I also got some 24 gauge magnet wire to make the electromagnet coils as he described, but I am not ready to waste it experimenting quite yet (kinda pricey to tinker with)..  So for this test-run I will use the electromagnets I already have, which is much thicker wire-  but the core and coil sizes are near the right dimensions for the magnets I am testing with..

I am UNHAPPY with the 3d print quality of the Rotor and stand.  I used crappy filament..  But it does spin true and should be OK to experiment with..  I plan to re-design / re-print at a later date when I get my new magnets and have more data and knowledge..

Here is a Video of the first protoyple spinning.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4s8w3-B6bg

I will be using a hall effect sensor this first build.  Unsure if I will use the brush mechanical timing, but I may get into that later.. 

My last driver coil mount is printing now- so I hope tomorrow to put the basics together with the circuitry and atleast get a running motor.  I have been researching about the Back-EMF and all that-  but am still hazy how to harvest it.  But one step at a time I guess..

So expect a post tomorrow sometime with a video of a basic running attraction motor

Offline synchro1

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2022, 04:21:53 PM »

Aaron connects a reed switch in series to his ferrite core output coil, cancels drag and multiplies voltage thousands of times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6iYRjcBu-Q

Offline floodrod

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2022, 04:36:00 PM »
Good morning all,

I hooked it up this morning and it ran without any struggle.  No tweaks or experimenting done besides rough positioning of the hall sensor..

I can only put a maximum of 12V with this circuitry as of now- but Here's what I see:

1. Rotor can maintain rotation at my power supply's lowest setting (about 0.7 of a watt).  Amperage raises when shaft is loaded.  I assume because the electromagnet needs to be powered longer.

2. 925 RPM at 10.11 input watts Unloaded

3.  1182 RPM at 18.6 input watts Unloaded

Perhaps my permanent magnet spacing on the rotor is too great.  Perhaps it's other factors..  BUT the torque and RPM is MUCH GREATER (at the same input wattage) on my previous model which used 4 electromagnets with alternating polarities.

I think the old model is more efficient because the same power used to repel the rotor is also being used to amplify the attraction to the next position. (same input power is being used for double the process)..  but in this attraction motor, the repelling does nothing to increase attraction of the rotor to get to the next position.

I do plan to play around with harnessing the Back-EMF, but I think the same principle will apply to both designs. 

I may be missing something, but I see realitively no advantage over this design that my previous.

Here is the video of it in action-  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e190vd0VTF8


Offline synchro1

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2022, 04:50:24 PM »
Good morning all,

I hooked it up this morning and it ran without any struggle.  No tweaks or experimenting done besides rough positioning of the hall sensor..

I can only put a maximum of 12V with this circuitry as of now- but Here's what I see:

1. Rotor can maintain rotation at my power supply's lowest setting (about 0.7 of a watt).  Amperage raises when shaft is loaded.  I assume because the electromagnet needs to be powered longer.

2. 925 RPM at 10.11 input watts Unloaded

3.  1182 RPM at 18.6 input watts Unloaded

Perhaps my permanent magnet spacing on the rotor is too great.  Perhaps it's other factors..  BUT the torque and RPM is MUCH GREATER (at the same input wattage) on my previous model which used 4 electromagnets with alternating polarities.

I think the old model is more efficient because the same power used to repel the rotor is also being used to amplify the attraction to the next position. (same input power is being used for double the process)..  but in this attraction motor, the repelling does nothing to increase attraction of the rotor to get to the next position.

I do plan to play around with harnessing the Back-EMF, but I think the same principle will apply to both designs. 

I may be missing something, but I see realitively no advantage over this design that my previous.

Here is the video of it in action-  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e190vd0VTF8


Beautiful build👌The chief advantage of the attraction motor is that the output coils can help power the rotor and increase the output power shorted at TDC. This only works with the kind of attraction motor you just built. The efficiency of the two motors are nearly the same, but the Adams Motor geometry of the latest design will permit the positioning of the generator coils. The shorted generator coils actually help power the rotor as well as generate higher voltage. Your 3D printer skill is awesome!

Take a look at Aaron's video. There is nothing to the output pulsers. One shorted output coil will put your motor overunity.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2022, 05:24:23 PM »

Beautiful build👌the chief advantage of the attraction motor is that the output coils can help power the rotor and increase the output power shorted at TDC. This only works with the kind of attraction motor you just built. The efficiency of the two motors are nearly the same, but the Adams Motor geometry of the latest de will permit the positioning of the generator coils. The shorted generator coils actually help power the rotor.

I don't see why the exact same action couldn't work with alternating polarity magnets.  They will still attract to the iron cores when powered OFF (essentially still using the attraction advantage) and the back EMF spike should still occur and be able to be captured the same way, just alternating (which shouldn't matter because it's AC, and after it's rectified should make no difference).

I would think alternating polarities offers nothing but advantages, because all the actions of Adams motor are there, BUT the alternating drive windings / permanent magnets take advantage of the input by almost a factor of 2X by not only repelling, but also adding attraction (with no additional input) to convince the rotor to attract to the next position.

I may be missing something as usual..  But I will be playing with this new adams motor as well as rigging an alternating version up on the same board to see the differences..

:)

Offline floodrod

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2022, 02:35:50 AM »
I am trying to design the circuit to short the drive coils and recoup the back EMF spike on the drive coils.  This is not covering the generator coils as of now.  And for simplicity of my understanding, this is assuming I am doing it mechanically. (no ardiuno or hall sensors)

If this circuit works, it will ONLY be for All 1 polarity action as Adams describes it.  Switching polarities is hurting my mind..

Can someone review my sketch and let me know if I missed anything?

1.  The rotor/shaft must hit a SPDT switch which from the battery to the drive coils is Normally Open.
2. When the rotor is not engaging the SPDT switch, Normally Closed is connecting the coils to a bridge rectifier, then charging the battery.
3. A second switch (single pole) is between the electromagnet positive and negative. - to momentarily short it out.

I included a second bridge rectifier on power feeds that activate the electromagnets even though it is already DC on the input.  Using a bridge rectifier here might be an overkill, but without it I was connecting a path for AC to get back to the battery every time I tried.

The 2 mechanical switches would have to be dialed in and triggered by the shaft/rotor..   And if this is correct- the generator part would probably require a 3rd limit switch.

Does this rough-sketch look correct?

Offline synchro1

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2022, 04:04:13 AM »

Igor has 2 components. A Reed Switch and a reverse biased LED in his full recovery loop. Please look at his schematics. It is very important to understand that the all the BEMF current travels through the LED and charges the battery connected backwards directly to the positive pole. No reason to include a FWBR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWvI7T7h3tk

Offline floodrod

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2022, 06:04:06 AM »
Igor has 2 components. A Reed Switch and a reverse biased LED in his full recovery loop. Please look at his schematics. It is very important to understand that the all the BEMF current travels through the LED and charges the battery connected backwards directly to the positive pole. No reason to include a FWBR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWvI7T7h3tk

Kool Vid! Thanks..

Correct me if I am wrong- but it seems the LED (diode) is only providing "half-wave rectification", thus only 50% efficient.  https://wiki.analog.com/university/courses/electronics/text/chapter-6

"In half wave rectification, either the positive or negative half of the AC wave is passed. Because only one half of the input waveform reaches the output, it is only 50% efficient if used for power transfer"

And in the Adams Motor, the coils are completely switched off.  In his model, if you cut off power to the coil and throw a switch anywhere in the BEMF path, it won't work.

My new rotor is almost done printing..  It will be a 6 pole rotor.  about 8" long with 6x neodymium's with 134 pound pull force each magnet.  And I got my 6 transformers all set for installation hopefully tomorrow.  We will see!

Offline synchro1

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2022, 05:19:06 PM »
Floodrod,


The BEMF from the field collapse is not an A.C. wave, it is a pulsed half wave for the monopole. The Adam's schematic calls for one diode for the four output coils and a second for the power coils. The diodes connect white stripe to the positive pole of the power source. The entire charge from the field collapse passes from the coil through the diode.

Offline synchro1

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2022, 11:28:56 PM »
Here's the schematic for the return circuit for the power coils. You can see how the diode runs from the end of the power coil around the switch back to the positive exactly like Igor's spinner II.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2022, 12:35:28 AM »
Thanks SYncro.  I am still trying to wrap my brain around it, but I have the parts to try that circuit.  And it looks a heck of alot easier than what I spent most the day doing..

I put together my complicated circuit with hall sensors, H bridges, FWBR's, Mosfets, etc..  I think I got it working-  BUT again- I am in new territory as my skills go.  I can say my Cap is charging to over 10 volts (slowly) but I do not see any motor efficiency with my setup.  See it in action here-  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4vTEwn0WTQ

The circuit you presented looks much simpler.  I will hook it up later and compare the results and post back.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2022, 02:03:28 AM »
OK I fried one side of my H-bridge hooking it up wrong, but I got it the 2nd shot..  Something interesting is happening! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPVgIO7nrYc

Now I have all my coils in-place to collect output from the 4 iron-core electromagnets-  but am stumped on this part.  Do I just rig-up a circuit switching them on and off with the same timing as the drive coils, and connect the wires to the same terminals as the driver wires?

Offline synchro1

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2022, 03:36:29 PM »

Congratulations on catching the BEMF! You can wire the output coils in series to maximize the voltage. The output circuit is completely separate from the drive circuit. One shorting Reed Switch can run all four coils in series. The diode ranges need to match the power output. It is critical that you have a diode connected to the storage capacitor that can handle the voltage. A Shottky hi-voltage diode is the best.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 05:54:43 PM by synchro1 »