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Author Topic: Kundel With Electromagnet Build  (Read 7207 times)

Offline floodrod

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2022, 12:17:01 AM »
Yes, it can be done like this.

I still would like to know how Synchro1 spins his magnets.

While you are waiting for syncro to reply, I will throw this your. way

His middle magnet is a diametric tube magnet.  All outer bar magnets are connected on 1 shaft (or bobbin in his case).  As the diametric tube magnet passes the first set of magnets, the bobbin turns 180 degrees so the poles attract to the tube magnet. When the bobbin turns, it will align the bottom magnets in repulsion mode, so when the downward force continues, the bottom 2 bar magnets will turn the bobbin the remaining 180 degrees to start position.  Thus reciprocation causes rotation.

My pic may have the magnets positioned differently as him, this will depend if the his bar magnets are axially or diametrically magnetized..

This is based off the Kundel motor model with his own spin on things.  You can see my replication of the original kundel motor in full working order here-  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT__L_uypF0 

Offline synchro1

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2022, 05:55:57 PM »
Here's 3 more pictures of the magnets.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2022, 04:18:44 AM »
3400 RPM With Considerable Torque-  20 Watts input power.
3485 RPM on 15 Watts with less torque

I decided to revisit this project today since I do not have any other active builds in progress.. 

Test#1 used a 2 magnet propeller with a horseshoe electromagnet. 2 Hall Sensors to keep the input power as low as I could.  I got 3485 RPM at 15 Watts input power with OK torque.  See it here-  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doeWBTcXj9o

Test #2-  I printed out a 4-pole rotor which obviously uses 4 of the same magnets. I sloppily welded 4 transformer cores in a box formation and wired them all in series- same poles as the magnets (alternating).  This configuration only uses 1 hall sensor because there is no space between the magnets, so no savings of input energy.  See it in action here-  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOI8-JQV17M

The outer edge of each magnet in the propeller is roughly aligned to center of each electromagnet.

I am getting 3,400 RPM with more torque than I've seen yet -with 20 watts input power.

The problem with most motors I've made to date is they don't have quite enough torque and bog down when loaded.  This 4-magnet configuration has the most torque yet so I will load test it tomorrow.

I would really like to try this with Flynn's Parallel Path Electromagnets, but if I understand it correctly, they do not work when switching polarities. They must stay 1 polarity.  Which means if I do go that route- I would have to have a total of 8 of them (2 at each pole) and do 4 on / 4 off cycles.

I am not sure...

Floor

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2022, 07:25:11 PM »
I  Love it !


Offline synchro1

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2022, 08:19:21 PM »
Awesome build. First of its kind. The Flynn magnets can't be reversed but they can be neutralized.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2022, 11:09:14 PM »
Thanks Dudes..  I am still dialing it in.  But here's what I have noticed so far which I was not expecting.

I moved the rotor a hair-width from the electromagnets and lost 1000+ RPM and input power jumped...  Then I moved the rotor away further from the electromagnet and the RPM jumped UP and input wattage went down by almost 2/3..

Apparently the iron cores are attracting the magnets adding a bunch of unneeded resistance.. 


Offline synchro1

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2022, 11:13:28 PM »
Adam's resonance is where the reverse backspike adds to the attraction.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2022, 03:15:42 AM »
"Adam's resonance"-  Googling did not yield much on this topic. Any links?

I guess I am about to venture into unknown territory with my next shots in the dark.

1. I am printing out a 4 magnet rotor that will be practically centered over each electromagnet.  We will see is direct center alignment gets more force rather than edge over the center like it is now.

2. I designed a few wacky rotors with no direction other than curiosity.  For example the one attached.  The magnets are tilted up 45 degrees and to the side 45 degrees.  I haven't got the slightest clue if this will initiate quicker RPMS by directing more flux towards the direction I want it to spin or if it's a waste of time and materials. 

I am debating printing this, but at the same time hesitant.

Offline synchro1

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2022, 01:41:53 AM »
"Adam's resonance"-  Googling did not yield much on this topic. Any links?

I guess I am about to venture into unknown territory with my next shots in the dark.

1. I am printing out a 4 magnet rotor that will be practically centered over each electromagnet.  We will see is direct center alignment gets more force rather than edge over the center like it is now.

2. I designed a few wacky rotors with no direction other than curiosity.  For example the one attached.  The magnets are tilted up 45 degrees and to the side 45 degrees.  I haven't got the slightest clue if this will initiate quicker RPMS by directing more flux towards the direction I want it to spin or if it's a waste of time and materials. 

I am debating printing this, but at the same time hesitant.


The 800% efficient Robert Adams motor-generator - YouTube

Offline synchro1

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2022, 02:07:38 PM »
While toying around with your attraction motor you probably hit the sweet spot Adam's shot for with his opticutter! The pulse yields double duty when the Dwell is correct. This was referred to as Adam's Resonance by John Bedini who designed his SSG to deliver it.

Built as an attraction motor with a bifilar winding, one a trigger coil connected to a transistor base through a resistor. The value of the resistor and the measured potentiometer level of input power to the primary solve the Adam's timing issue.

Offline synchro1

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2022, 06:45:33 PM »
Shorting generator-coils part 2, gain in output - YouTube


Shorting the output oil with a reed switch increases the output power. Adams uses the reverse polarity of interruption to power the rotor.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2022, 04:06:34 AM »
Wow so much info!  Thanks!!  I will dig deep into it after my work week.

I don't think mine's much of an "attraction motor" like the Adams.  Since the iron cores are all welded together and the core is practically ALWAYS attracting the magnets, it only has very little attraction that wants to make the rotor move.  The rotor WILL move with attraction alone because there is more iron dead center- but it pretty much spins pretty freely.  I would say it's more of a "kundel motor" which repels the rotor to try to attract to the opposite side.. 

And from what I did read, the Adams motor is only powered roughly 25% of the time, where as mine is powered somewhere around 70-80% of the time.  Cutting the input time would not help either because of the joined cores between all 4 electromagnets (the attraction to the core alone does not initiate much rotation).

Also again unlike the Adams, my rotor magnets polarities are alternating.  Which also means my electromagnet input polarities are alternating in sync with the rotor.  -, there is "attraction" when the magnets repel to attract to the next slot.  Pretty much just like the Kundel motor movement.

I would like to try all 1 polarity like Adams, BUT again the core issue..  There is practically no rotation caused by attraction to the cores, so to do this, I would have to replace All the electromagnets, spread them apart more- and make a bigger rotor to reach them.  So basically a whole new motor..

So tonight I hooked up the new Rotor which is aligned magnet to almost dead center of each electromagnet.  The RPM's are down some- but the Torque jumped by a big margin.  Stopping it by hand burns my skin off, requiring me to switch hands not to blister.

Now to my questions of the night!..

Regarding a generator.....  If I make an identical rotor with identical magnets. I mount the 2nd rotor behind the first and between the 2 construct a stator on a stand with 4 air coils which holes are slightly smaller than the magnets, but the coils wound enough to about touch each other-  (I guess an axial flux type), would this be a good choice?  I am leaning towards this because it seems like it would allow my RPM's not to bog down so much with cogging.

Offline synchro1

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2022, 02:18:16 PM »
I think if you strengthend the rotor magnets enough it would run as an attraction motor with very low input.

Offline floodrod

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2022, 12:54:21 AM »
I think if you strengthend the rotor magnets enough it would run as an attraction motor with very low input.

Unfortunately this design won't work in attraction mode.  The magnets are big 40mm x 20mm neodymium which can break fingers is 2 of them came together with a hand between them.  The problem - there is Iron the full travel path of the rotor.  The cores would need separation between them to attract strongly from 1 position to another.

So I decided to give the "Attraction Motor" a try anyway ...   I am printing a new rotor and base as we speak.  This design is considerably bigger and burlier than my previous builds, so it will take a decent amount of plastic at dense infill.

I do have a question regarding the Adams motor..  There are 2 electromagnets and 4 generator coils.  If all 4 rotor magnets are facing the same polarity, I do not understand how the generator part would work.  Is it "ONLY" from "Back EMF"?  or are there other magnets in the rotor alternating polarity?

Offline synchro1

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Re: Kundel With Electromagnet Build
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2022, 03:26:08 PM »

Old experiments! - No1 - Shorting coil - Charging a capacitor without affecting the source or rpm - YouTube

The guy that supposedly got this to work was Romero UK. The rotor magnets are all the same polarity. The field induced in the output coil is opposed to the magnet polarity. When the output coil circuit is interrupted by the magnetic Reed switch, the field reverses and is now in opposition to the rotor magnet. Lenz propulsion results when this reverse is timed at TDC .

The voltage from the coil short is higher then the input voltage , so the storage capacitor can be discharged into the input coil to mask the attraction. Magnetic attraction powers the motor.

The magnet rotor powers the Reed switch triggering the output coil. The rotor is unaffected by the output coil because it helps power the rotor with TDC Lenz Propulsion. The masking input for an attraction motor can easily be covered by the Lenz Propulsion force and power recovery. Adam's measured 800 times the output from his shorted Lenz free output coils then the power required for masking pulse input!

Romero states the magnets are N-S on the rotor: However the magnetic Reed switch only triggers off one pole only!
« Last Edit: March 02, 2022, 06:28:59 PM by synchro1 »