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Author Topic: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno  (Read 10614 times)

Offline floodrod

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2022, 02:30:52 PM »

In a complete cycle as ...
> 1.886 to 1     and then     1 to > 1.886     more accuately stated (not as  COP)

Floor,

If you are still keeping tabs on this topic, this statement has confused me since it was posted.  Are we saying the initial throw takes > than 1.886 units of input force to get 1 unit out, but the next and opposite return throw will get > than 1.886 units out for 1 unit of input force?  So 1 complete revolutions output power is equal to input power?

Now what about revolution #2 (throw 3 and 4)?  and so on?  Is each throw after the initial startup push getting 1.886X more than input?  Because I can't see much difference between throw 2 compared to 3, the momentum and action appears to be similar (if not increase slightly  with each throw).

With the biggest and best spinners I have made as of this date-  I would guess the spinner turns close to (if not) 3/4 the way around on the initial push. It goes much past the 180 degree mark and if I did not keep pressure, would even push the reciprocator back to the original position because it went so far.  I attached a video link of this action...  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skruZW_jRxk 

Basically are you saying based on your evaluation each full revolution would be equal to input power?  Or are you saying the first revolution would be equal to input power, then each revolution there after would be more than input?

Thanks in advanced


Offline floodrod

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2022, 03:45:50 AM »
After many hours of fiddling I reached a conclusion on the idea of self-powering this Kundel.  Main point- this setup as it is will not power itself.  Reasons below:

1. If the outer wheels causing reciprocation are stronger than the inner propellers, the inner propellers can not create enough rotation to keep the outer wheels going.

2. Vise Versa- if the inner propellers causing rotation are stronger than the outer wheel causing reciprocation, the outer wheel can not create enough reciprocation to keep the inner propellers going.

3. When you finally get them exactly even, timed, and spaced perfectly, both outer wheels and inner propellers are magnetically neutralized.

I may circle back to the self-powering gig if new method to create reciprocation comes about- but I have some other things I want to try with this rig in the meantime. I am happy with the part design on this model- and adapting it to other ideas will not be too difficult.


Floor

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2022, 07:52:26 AM »
Cool.  I'll bet your getting a pretty good feel for
   and
some new understandings of magnet interactions.
  and
You have done / presented some nice builts to.
cool again.

Offline floodrod

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2022, 01:16:33 PM »
Thanks-  Floor if you get a chance, I asked a question on one of your statements 2-3 posts back..

Next I want to try something a little different.  Same kundel action, but instead of reciprocating the inner magnet, I want to try use controlled rotation to trigger the propellers.

Basically, a stepper motor will quickly turn the center magnet 180 degrees (100 steps) causing the propellers to flip. And of course a timing circuit causing the center magnet to turn again and again at the correct timing.

My current thoughts are turning the center magnet vertically as in the pic would be better to try than horizontally, as I predict horizontally would cause the propeller to magnetically lock onto the center magnet, thus equal in- equal out scenario.

Honestly, I have no idea of the outcome- hence why I must try it :)


Floor

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2022, 04:52:19 PM »
I'm pretty careful not to discourage any ones experiments.  After a while
one can    tend    to think they have seen or know it all, even though,
obviously there is No way that is true. 

Because there are so many different ways, different people will approach
a problem, there is always something new to learn from other peoples
experiments, if we take the time to really familiarize with it.

A first approach the essence of which is,
to get magnets to do work in such a manner that, the work is not then undone
in order to get the magnets to do that work again.

It has been reasonably          assumed,     that
there can be no overall gain in energy from magnet interactions other wise.

Many believe this is simply impossible and that the undoing of that work will always
occur in any complete cycling or reset of the event and therefore also a zero   net    gain
must always be arrived at.

          Many believe it is a waste of time to experiment along those lines.
                                I myself, don't fall into that category.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
A second approach.
Amazingly and even though it is reasonably    assumed    that there can be no
overall gain in energy from magnet interactions...
in which during a full cycle of their interacting,
all output energy or work, is returned into that system
in order to do reset / reverse it to the starting alignments,
                               there can still be a gain in energy.


floodrod quote

"If you are still keeping tabs on this topic, this statement has confused me since it was posted.
 Are we saying the initial throw takes > than 1.886 units of input force to get 1 unit out, but the next and opposite return throw will get > than 1.886 units out for 1 unit of input force?  So 1 complete revolutions output power is equal to input power?

end of that quote

User synchro, was referring to a specific / another / although related design.
In that method there is a  > 2  to 1 energy gain in one direction and a  > 2 to 1
energy loss in the reverse direction. 

That device falls into the "second approach" category.


It at may at first appear to be a useless interaction, but it is far from it.
                                      @
    https://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/msg563518/#msg563518
« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 07:19:34 PM by Floor »

Offline floodrod

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #65 on: February 08, 2022, 09:01:15 PM »
Thanks Floor...  I been reading all this feverishly till 2am last night trying to understand it all.  I wonder if speed could be exploited in resetting a device, similar to the spin drive, as there is a 5-8 degree delay between the reciprocator magnet and the propeller.   Does attraction between 2 magnets reduce when the magnet that moves uses great speed?  I ask because slowly moving 1 magnet past another you will feel great attraction. But the quicker the magnet moves, it seems the less magnetic attract occurs. 

Anyway, I setup a sample device to spin the reciprocator magnet in front of a kundel propeller to see what happens..  I don't know what to make of it, or where to go from here yet, but it seems interesting to explore.

I recorded it here for your viewing pleasure..  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7AVesHSKpA


Floor

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #66 on: February 08, 2022, 09:40:50 PM »
"I wonder if speed could be exploited in resetting a device,"

                        Perform an especially designed test ?

Offline floodrod

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #67 on: February 08, 2022, 10:00:27 PM »
"I wonder if speed could be exploited in resetting a device,"

                        Perform an especially designed test ?

I came to realize I am a hack...  I am much better at building crap and winging it than scientific calculations. 

Anyway I took the next logical step and powered the magnet spinner with a small motor.  And I was shocked..  Under 4.1 watts input gets this sucker cooking with some degree of noticeable torque.  And I am sure it will spin at even lower wattage.  From my crude tests and visual inspection, I see no advantage reciprocating a magnet versus just spinning it.  It anything, (from initial observations),  spinning the magnet blows reciprocation away.

And this uses no logic circuitry, timing, hall sensors, nothing. 

See Videohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1SdzbzVEs0


Offline floodrod

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #68 on: February 08, 2022, 10:24:54 PM »
Instead of scientific tests, I think this video test speaks the results..

"Great speeds pretty much nulls magnetic forces if the two objects are not in sync."

I currently see no reason why this could not be taken advantage of in terms of resetting a device.    Check It Out-  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blC3zvR07bs

Floor

  • Guest
Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #69 on: February 08, 2022, 11:09:25 PM »
Good question / excelllent direction in which to investigate  !

The dog bone shaped rotor has mass.

Any mass has a resistance to accelerating.
It takes time for it to get moving or to speed up.

If we push on it first in this direction and then in the opposite direction,
                  but also switch between these directions,
   quicker than the dog bone can get much of a start in moving
                         in one or the other direction... ?

What is the difference in the energy
         input by the electric motor
when the dog bone is first present
                     and
        then not at all present ?

This is difficult to measure.

The drill draws more electric power when it is under a mechanical load.

One thing is for certain, you are not switching magnetic polarities quicker
than a magnetic field can travel.   

Quicker than the mass of the dog bone allows for much acceleration against the
inertia of the dog bone ... yes

Is there a way to gain energy there ?


If the dog bone is not moving (not even vibrating or warming up),
 no energy is being transferred to the dog bone.

Your exploration / question is a good one, I think.

But also I think the video does not demonstrate something which answers
that question.

Floor

  • Guest
Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #70 on: February 08, 2022, 11:47:23 PM »
"It anything, (from initial observations),  spinning the magnet blows reciprocation away."

                                No doubt. 
Rotation is more power efficient almost always than is reciprocation, because it better
conserves momentum.

Very cool.

    Today you are some percentage less a "hack" than the day before.

    P.S
       and me too / thanks for sharing
          Also very cool.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #71 on: February 09, 2022, 12:39:12 AM »
Hi floodrod, 

Seeing your setup reminds me to this interesting magnetic transmission system:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ludLU4_6ZDM   

Thanks, 
Gyula

Offline floodrod

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #72 on: February 09, 2022, 12:55:07 AM »
Good question / excelllent direction in which to investigate  !

The dog bone shaped rotor has mass.

Any mass has a resistance to accelerating.
It takes time for it to get moving or to speed up.

If we push on it first in this direction and then in the opposite direction,
                  but also switch between these directions,
   quicker than the dog bone can get much of a start in moving
                         in one or the other direction... ?

What is the difference in the energy
         input by the electric motor
when the dog bone is first present
                     and
        then not at all present ?

This is difficult to measure.

The drill draws more electric power when it is under a mechanical load.

One thing is for certain, you are not switching magnetic polarities quicker
than a magnetic field can travel.   

Quicker than the mass of the dog bone allows for much acceleration against the
inertia of the dog bone ... yes

Is there a way to gain energy there ?


If the dog bone is not moving (not even vibrating or warming up),
 no energy is being transferred to the dog bone.

Your exploration / question is a good one, I think.

But also I think the video does not demonstrate something which answers
that question.

I concur...  The video does not prove much.  And you are correct- the dogbone does vibrate when standing still and I can hear different stresses in the bearings when moving the dogbone.  I can say without a shadow of a doubt, the magnetic fields are NOT completely nulled. I think as you suggested, the rotator magnet is switching polarities quicker than the dogbone mass can obtain momentum. But for certain, at a certain speed, the dogbone can be manipulated in any position without barely any opposing force.

I have fancier controllers and electronics on the way- I will be investigating further..


Offline floodrod

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #73 on: February 09, 2022, 01:50:02 AM »
Sorry for over-posting but I have a restless mind.

If in fact the reaction I am witnessing is caused because the flipping of the magnetic fields is quicker than the mass can gain momentum, I think it can be exploited also..

It is apparent that if the magnetic fields flip quick enough,  the dogbone can be manipulated with very little force.  And logic tells us this is also true in reverse.   If the dogbone spins quick enough, the rotating magnet should also rotate rather freely.


So one way I can think to exploit this would be a torsion driven magnetic motor.  Please proof my logic:

1. The rotating magnet will use a controller with outside power + motor to wind up the torsion device at quick speeds.  The bog-done would add only a fraction of it's force force against the rotating magnet (as demonstrated in the video) because of the speed.

2. When fully wound, the winding motor would disengage and allow the torsion device to turn the rotating magnet xxx rotations at a speed that the dogbone can keep up with.

3. Once the torsion device is spent, the controller engages the motor to repeat the process.

Does this not sound like this "resetting" process" would take much less power than the output power?

Floor

  • Guest
Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #74 on: February 09, 2022, 02:01:38 AM »
"If in fact the reaction I am witnessing is caused because the flipping of the magnetic fields is quicker than the mass can gain momentum, I think it can be exploited also.."

I agree / may be it can be exploited in some way that is benificial to the input
to output ratios.

What is the easiest / beat way to explore this ?   Not sure.

 regards
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 04:44:04 AM by Floor »