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Author Topic: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno  (Read 10631 times)

Offline synchro1

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2021, 07:18:22 PM »
We can mount the spool inside a ceramic collar bearing, attach an end to an alternator and run the diametric magnet between the arc segments with a solinoid.

Floor

  • Guest
Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2021, 08:45:48 PM »
@ all readers

Request ...

I realize that over sized pics. are         some times      needed for clarity, but
other wise...

Would you stop blowing up the topics with over sized pics, that cause readers
to have to scroll back and forth to read the texts / view the pic..

Re size the pictures in paint or another program before you upload them
please ?  Check to see that the pics. are not over sized before the time allotted to
edit the post expires.

Also edit texts, so that they do not extend beyond the screen edges.

One more thing...
             Please don't throw cigarette buts in the urinal.
                It makes them soggy and hard to light !
                                Courtesy matters

Offline floodrod

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2021, 08:46:40 PM »
Very interesting all. Thanks for the brain food. But let me ask this to perhaps save myself a build or convince myself to do it.

What is the point of the reciprocation magnets.? From my understanding, the power is being produced from the flipping of the propellers.

Let's assume we are using a kundel motor with one pair of propellers. And let's also assume an electromagnet replaced the reciprocator magnet. In this assumption, the electromagnet is much stronger than the reciprocator magnets currently are. And let's also say the electromagnet took less wattage to power than the voice coil.

Wouldn't it be more advantageous to replace the reciprocator magnet with an electromagnet. So we eliminate reciprocation altogether and also eliminate opposing force on the reciprocator?

Or am I missing something? Is there really a purpose in the reciprocation itself, besides obviously getting a magnet close enough to flip the propeller?

Floor

  • Guest
Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2021, 09:14:10 PM »
              The first electric motors were reciprocating. 

Things which were learned from these motors led to
the  innovation which was rotating motors,
                          and
which increased motor efficiency due to their conservation of momentum.

                   "the power is being produced from the flipping of the propellers "

That is true of conventional motors (not induction motors per say) as well.

So what is different about the Kundel ?
... ... ...
For one thing...

There exists a kind of right angle interaction of the magnetic forces, that does
not exist in "conventional" electric motors.

Right angle interactions can in some conditions double (or more) the force and
energy available, over what is arrived at through direct / non shearing interactions.

How exactly to take advantage of this fact is perhaps, the essence of these
investigations.

  good questions !

Offline synchro1

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2021, 09:20:34 PM »
Here's the Arc polarity.

Floor

  • Guest
Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2021, 09:25:41 PM »
@ all readers

Request ...

I realize that over sized pics. are         some times      needed for clarity, but
other wise...

Would you stop blowing up the topics with over sized pics, that cause readers
to have to scroll back and forth to read the texts / view the pic..

Re size the pictures in paint or another program before you upload them
please ?  Check to see that the pics. are not over sized before the time allotted to
edit the post expires.

Also edit texts, so that they do not extend beyond the screen edges.

One more thing...
             Please don't throw cigarette buts in the urinal.
                It makes them soggy and hard to light !
                                Courtesy matters

Offline synchro1

  • Hero Member
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  • Posts: 4652
Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2021, 09:35:28 PM »
Mounting this spool inside the ceramic collar bearing, attaching the Arc segments and fixing the diametric piston in solid position should deliver the OU COP.


We can cut the spool in the middle and glue the ends together inside the collar bearing to help strengthen the body of the spoo


A 3d printed pillow caseing for the collar bearing would attach securely to the base.


Floor,


Don't cramp my style!

Offline floodrod

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  • Posts: 405
Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2021, 09:41:56 PM »
              The first electric motors were reciprocating. 

Things which were learned from these motors led to
the  innovation which was rotating motors,
                          and
which increased motor efficiency due to their conservation of momentum.

                   "the power is being produced from the flipping of the propellers "

That is true of conventional motors (not induction motors per say) as well.

So what is different about the Kundel ?
... ... ...
For one thing...

There exists a kind of right angle interaction of the magnetic forces, that does
not exist in "conventional" electric motors.

Right angle interactions can in some conditions double (or more) the force and
energy available, over what is arrived at through direct / non shearing interactions.

How exactly to take advantage of this fact is perhaps, the essence of these
investigations.

  good questions !

Thanks. I studied kundels patents with a fine tooth comb multiple times while building. In his patent, he shows reciprocator and propellers face on face, face to side, and side to 45° angle as all being appropriate. He even goes on to say that face to face or 45 to side results in more torque than side to face.

I came to believe that the power is amplified because the propeller magnets are placed close enough where the flux is touching between them. So when the reciprocator magnet gets close enough the flipping action is much stronger than it would be if the two magnets had separated flux.

During my build, I made half a dozen type of propellers and reciprocators with everything from hard drive magnets to 60 mm bars. What I learned was that face on face does not work good if the magnets are exactly lined up. Keeping the propeller magnets with as little spacing between them as possible, and spacing the reciprocator magnets out so they go pass the edge of the propeller magnets seem to have unarguably the most force.

On previous models, I think I got more RPM out of side to face, but with much less torque. Offset face to face gave me close to the same RPM, but more torque.

But for clarity, different prototypes were made on different rig ups and different type of reciprocating systems. My first one was made with a levitating platform as a reciprocator.

I see no reason for the reciprocating arms at all though, if one would just use the electromagnet. Sure it does resemble a conventional DC brushless motor, but as you said adjusting the angles of the magnets absolutely makes a big difference.

Losing the reciprocating action would result in,

1.  Exceptionally less vibration
2. Much quieter
3. Less resistance from No reciprocating bars and no reciprocating bearings
4. Less heat build up as opposed to a thin wire speaker coil
5. And ultimately more reciprocator magnetism for the same amount of input power.

The noteworthy challenge as pointed out, is arranging the magnets with the electromagnet in the optimal position. And for reference, it made no difference if the propellers were tight and a reciprocator was spaced out, or the reciprocator was tight and a propeller was spaced out. As long as the reciprocating and a propeller magnets had the correct spacing, it did not matter which was which. Since an electromagnet already has no spacing between The negative and positive, the propeller would need to extend past the electromagnet by some. And of course I could adjust the angles for optimal output

Floor

  • Guest
Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2021, 11:24:04 PM »
I hope you don't mind that some of my explanations
are beginner level.   I consider my self a beginner.
... ... ...
Sure
next level / electromagnets and so on.

Offline floodrod

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  • Posts: 405
Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2021, 12:22:39 AM »
I hope you don't mind that some of my explanations
are beginner level.   I consider my self a beginner.
... ... ...
Sure
next level / electromagnets and so on.

If you're a beginner, I am still in the womb..

I'll be the first to admit-  I've been wrong more times than I've been right...  As I see it,  it matters little..  What matters is having a mind that can comprehend logic, and the determination to follow through.


Offline floodrod

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2021, 02:02:58 AM »
Attaching 4 Arc Magnets to the spool walls Kundel polarity with a fixed diametric piston will mirror the Kundel arrangement.

Axial polarized arcs like that are hard to find. Trust me, I looked.  Aliexpress had 1 seller, that had them but the price was unreasonable..

I did order 48 arcs that are polarized on each end .  But if I make a circle with them, the best I can do is have -+-+ in 1 full rotation.  Instead of flipping the actuator polarity twice per revolution, I would have flip the polarity 4 times per revolution.  Which means I would have to have a minimum of 2 bipolar hall sensors.. (one at 90 degrees, one at 180 degrees)..   This is definitely doable, and I'd imagine it would increase the torque by double.

Alternatively I can configure the same arcs +-+-+-+- which would need 8 polarity switches per rotation. 45, 90, 135, and 180. 

This scares me, as my scalp is already sore from all the head-scratching dealing with a 2 polarity propeller. Lol

I also have diametric rings coming.. 

So yea, I am not done here yet!  I plan to finish tweaking this one out and trying a simple electromagnet design to compare.

Offline floodrod

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2021, 04:16:23 AM »
I am going to finish what I started..

Stage 1 commenced of around 3 straight days of 3d printing to replace the speaker.  I attached the planned design.  It will mount to the existing support system.  I probably have to add another end support after this to steady the support rods. So add another 16 hours of printing...

2x 40mm x 20mm N52 neos..  2 Electromagnets, 4 linear bearings, 2X 8mm rods..

The gray boxes are the 2 electromagnets in the diagram.  If it works like I think- This should give me all the reciprocation power I will ever need. 

Offline synchro1

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2021, 04:07:56 PM »
Axial polarized arcs like that are hard to find. Trust me, I looked.  Aliexpress had 1 seller, that had them but the price was unreasonable..

I did order 48 arcs that are polarized on each end .  But if I make a circle with them, the best I can do is have -+-+ in 1 full rotation.  Instead of flipping the actuator polarity twice per revolution, I would have flip the polarity 4 times per revolution.  Which means I would have to have a minimum of 2 bipolar hall sensors.. (one at 90 degrees, one at 180 degrees)..   This is definitely doable, and I'd imagine it would increase the torque by double.

Alternatively I can configure the same arcs +-+-+-+- which would need 8 polarity switches per rotation. 45, 90, 135, and 180. 

This scares me, as my scalp is already sore from all the head-scratching dealing with a 2 polarity propeller. Lol

I also have diametric rings coming.. 

So yea, I am not done here yet!  I plan to finish tweaking this one out and trying a simple electromagnet design to compare.


Sawing 2 axially polarized ring magnets in half would create 4 arc segments.

Offline synchro1

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2021, 04:34:57 PM »
Jerry Bayles demonstrates the spiraling field expansion of spinning magnets. The magnetic fields inside this Kundel Coupling actually grow stronger as the gear accelerates. This accounts for the increased load with reduced input. The magnified field strength remains recessed unnoticed in the background until put to work on a load.

Offline floodrod

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2021, 05:40:45 PM »

Sawing 2 axially polarized ring magnets in half would create 4 arc segments.

It kills me buying expensive magnets and taking a grinder to them.  I tried with one nice thick ring-magnet last week.  I cut slowly and kept misting every few seconds to keep it cool.  It worked, but I am still not thrilled by the idea of chomping into several of them..

I will be receiving 40 of these 90 degree arcs in the mail soon.  They are small and polarized wrong, but I could use several deep per ring to make it nice and thick.  I will have to have a minimum of 4 poles tho in the ring using these, so the hall sensors and timing circuit will need to change.

I figured if I can't get them to work good for propellers, I can always use them to make a generator for the rig.