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Author Topic: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno  (Read 3695 times)

Offline floodrod

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My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« on: December 26, 2021, 03:11:14 AM »
After 4 prototypes and a box of failed prints, I managed to produce a working Kundel motor..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT__L_uypF0

I am not convinced it can achieve overunity yet..  Any ideas, feedback, questions, or suggestions to see what it can produce?

Offline synchro1

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2021, 06:46:44 PM »
Fantastic replication. That's the first working model I have seen since Kundel first showed his. Congratulations on the great success! Any way to test COP? You coukd try and connect the flywheel to an A.C. wash tub motor and measure the output.


My innovation runs a diametric tube magnet through the core of a twin ring spindle.


June 10, 2019 - YouTube


Floor is measuring this twist to push pull ratio at 1.86 COP!

Offline Floor

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2021, 11:04:47 PM »
After 4 prototypes and a box of failed prints, I managed to produce a working Kundel motor..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT__L_uypF0

I am not convinced it can achieve overunity yet..  Any ideas, feedback, questions, or suggestions to see what it can produce?

In an accelerating / decelerating /  reciprocating device like this, the more massive /
rigid / stable every mounting point is, the more efficient the device will be. 

ie. mounting to the table and even the table itself...


More energy than you would expect, can be lost into unwanted vibrations.

nice build !


Offline floodrod

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2021, 11:11:05 PM »
Fantastic replication. That's the first working model I have seen since Kundel first showed his. Congratulations on the great success! Any way to test COP? You coukd try and connect the flywheel to an A.C. wash tub motor and measure the output.


My innovation runs a diametric tube magnet through the core of a twin ring spindle.


June 10, 2019 - YouTube


Floor is measuring this twist to push pull ratio at 1.86 COP!

Thanks!  I will be studying your design closely...  I love absorbing this stuff..

I haven't tried to load it much yet, as I want to increase the torque and lower the input requirements first. ., I want to rid myself of the speaker power and replace it with something better.  With the same 25 watts I am putting into the speaker, I think I can make a much more powerful non-com voice coil actuator than a thin-wired 8 ohm ceramic mag setup the speaker offers.. 

Offline synchro1

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2021, 11:26:58 PM »
Thanks!  I will be studying your design closely...  I love absorbing this stuff..

I haven't tried to load it much yet, as I want to increase the torque and lower the input requirements first. ., I want to rid myself of the speaker power and replace it with something better.  With the same 25 watts I am putting into the speaker, I think I can make a much more powerful non-com voice coil actuator than a thin-wired 8 ohm ceramic mag setup the speaker offers..


The Piezo Actuator is a very strong contender if you can program the Arduino!

Offline floodrod

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2021, 01:12:47 AM »

The Piezo Actuator is a very strong contender if you can program the Arduino!

Never looked into them- if they can do enough power and are affordable- I will consider. thanks..

My idea I am tinkering with now is

2x 8mm linear rods + 4X LM8uu linear bearings
2X homemade electromagnets that I made with transformers that use low volts and high amps and are wickedly strong
1x 40x20mm neo disc magnet
and a 3d printed carriage..

The H-bridge will activate 1 electromagnet at a time (one North, One South) every half rotation, causing the glider with the 40mm neo mounted on the linear rails to reciprocate, thus pushing the reciprocator arms.   

EDIT-  I won't even need the H-bridge in this setup.  I can use 2 mosfets , 1 hall, and an ardiuno mini

Offline floodrod

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2021, 01:37:32 AM »
In an accelerating / decelerating /  reciprocating device like this, the more massive /
rigid / stable every mounting point is, the more efficient the device will be. 

ie. mounting to the table and even the table itself...


More energy than you would expect, can be lost into unwanted vibrations.

nice build !

Hi Floor..

I know you are right on this..  When I hold the base steady, I see an increase of RPM and efficiency..  I could only imagine if all that wasted force was directed at the magnet propulsion instead of shaking the nuts and bolts off the table :)

Offline Floor

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2021, 04:21:32 AM »
Floor is measuring this twist to push pull ratio at 1.86 COP!


In a complete cycle as ...
> 1.886 to 1     and then     1 to > 1.886     more accuately stated (not as  COP)

Offline Floor

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2021, 06:01:49 AM »
Hi Floor..

I know you are right on this..  When I hold the base steady, I see an increase of RPM and efficiency..  I could only imagine if all that wasted force was directed at the magnet propulsion instead of shaking the nuts and bolts off the table :)

?  By efficiency, do you mean that the electrical power consumption decreases ?

Offline floodrod

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2021, 12:14:21 PM »
?  By efficiency, do you mean that the electrical power consumption decreases ?

No. With this, power input stays constant regardless of load.  When I hold it down steady, the jumpiness decreases, RPM increase some, and you can hear the rhythmic buzz of the machinery start to be less chaotic and more in-tune.  Perhaps "efficiency" was a poor choice of words.

Could you explain "COP" to me when you can?  The only COP I am familiar with is in HVAC

Offline floodrod

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2021, 12:57:45 PM »
Studying this whole Kundel setup, I think this machine can be soooo much more efficient if configured differently..

Currently- A ceramic speaker magnet and a low quality coil (inefficient electro magnet) pulsate metal reciprocating arms which with bearings attached to several smaller reciprocating magnets.  Those reciprocating magnets agitate the magnets on the shaft causing rotation.  And every reciprocation cycle we face resistance pulling the magnet away from the attraction force and pushing it into an opposing field.

I think I know a simple way to create this same action with Bone-Crushing torque, while ridding the machine of the reciprocation process and eliminating the resistance it faces pulling and pushing through the magnetic flux of the shaft position. Not to mention less propellers needed.

I can set this up pretty easily to test.  Guess now I know what I will be doing this weekend

Offline synchro1

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2021, 03:55:42 PM »
VCM , voice coil motor 20-23 - YouTube


This is called a voice coil motor but it is actually piezoelectric.

Offline synchro1

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2021, 04:47:34 PM »
One coupling should show 1.8 times more output than input from the oscillator.

Offline Floor

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2021, 05:21:25 PM »
No. With this, power input stays constant regardless of load.

Thanks, I was just looking for confirmation of that.
  also
The device is more efficient / more power goes out the rotating shaft
when it runs "smoother".

   cool

Given a mind set of conservation of energy and so on....

COP > 1 is    "only possible"      because, in analogy / example,
   
               one can arrive at having more energy at some point of use / location,

                  by simply carrying a gallon of gasoline (potential energy)
                                       from one location to another,

                       than the energy one might expend in the process of
                          the transporting of that gasoline to that location.

Something like that / one way of conventionally describing COP > 1...

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

One aspect of the mechanical output which is the result of the electric input
and which can be calculated, is the amount of energy expended in causing
the accelerations of the reciprocating objects in the device.

examination / observations /
questions / answers  /
not asking you to answer these questions

1. What are the number of strokes per revolution ?
2. What are the revolutions per minute ?
3. What are the strokes per second ?
4. What is the combined mass of all of the reciprocating objects (in grams) ?
5. What is the length of the travel (in meters) of the reciprocating objects in 1 stroke ?
6. What is the total length traveled (in meters) as strokes in 1 minute ?
7. What is the total length traveled (in meters) as strokes in 1 second ?
    This is what the speed of the reciprocating travel averages out to (? millimeters /second).
    This is velocity or meters/second  or v.
8. During each stroke mass is accelerated to a velocity of  ? meters/second ?
9. The kinetic energy (Joules) present in the form of a moving mass = 1/2 * mass * velocity ^2
10. The kinetic energy present in a moving mass is equal to the energy put into it
       to cause it to accelerate to the velocity of its motion.
       This is the energy (joules) expended as force to cause the mass to accelerate
       to v, in each stroke.
11.  Each stroke uses ? joules to cause acceleration ... each second has ? strokes ...
                                 1 joule per second = 1 watt of power.
12.  In general... one might consider that the greater the mechanical load one places upon
       the spinning shaft the lesser would be the percentage of input energy wasted in
       accelerating the reciprocating elements of the device (because they would
       accelerate to a lesser velocity) .  However, with this kind of  device, the arresting
       of the output rotation will not arrest the motion of the reciprocating parts ?  There is
       no mechanical / gear linkage between the two. 
13.  The less massive the reciprocating objects are, the less the energy is wasted in
       accelerations
14. The stronger the magnets which are used are, in proportion to their mass, the more
      power the device can output for a given input.
15. The mechanical load upon the rotating shaft does not significantly affect the input
       electrical power ?
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
  Looking forward to
      seeing your explorations /
                   next builds
                    floor

Offline synchro1

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Re: My Kundel motor replication with ardiuno
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2021, 06:58:12 PM »
Attaching 4 Arc Magnets to the spool walls Kundel polarity with a fixed diametric piston will mirror the Kundel arrangement.