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Author Topic: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.  (Read 18692 times)

Online citfta

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #60 on: January 09, 2022, 01:31:23 PM »
Captainpecan,


You can use Goop glue to hold the magnets in place.  It will strongly resist the magnet movement but when you later decide to remove the magnet you can use a pair of pliers and give the magnet a twist and it will come right off.  I've been using it for years for this kind of work.  You could also add some flat washers between the nuts and the metal plates to stiffen the metal plates even more.  The forces of this setup are pretty strong as you are finding out.  How do you plan to go from a test of forces to a working system?  You will need to replace one of each pair of magnets with an electromagnet.  How will you mount the EM?  Just some ideas to pass along to you.  You're looking good so far.


Carroll


PS:  One other thing.  After you are done with your forces test you might want to consider a different flywheel.  Those of us that had the most success were all using a cast iron or steel flywheel.  We think it may have something to do with connecting the magnetic fields from one magnet to another.  My flywheel for instance is a  10 pound cast iron pulley removed from an old air compressor and rebored to take bearings in the center.


Edit:  Looking at your pictures again I see you do have washers on one side of your metal plates.  I would add them to the other side also.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #61 on: January 09, 2022, 03:48:25 PM »
In the engineering process of any industrial rotary device of this nature:


Measurements are often taken directly from the shaft, at 1-arc radian per measurement
around one full cycle. Where all of the +’s and -‘s can be summed.


The ratio of diameters between the point of force and the shaft size
are then used to calculate the torque differential to the shaft.
We can then use a metered torque applied to the shaft, and measured therefrom.
and almost everything we need to know about the design
(inside the magnetic black box)
comes to light.


While knowing peak force values is important,
 and should be measured from each direction
this alone tells us little about the total energy involved.




Offline captainpecan

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #62 on: January 09, 2022, 06:39:09 PM »
In the engineering process of any industrial rotary device of this nature:


Measurements are often taken directly from the shaft, at 1-arc radian per measurement
around one full cycle. Where all of the +’s and -‘s can be summed.


The ratio of diameters between the point of force and the shaft size
are then used to calculate the torque differential to the shaft.
We can then use a metered torque applied to the shaft, and measured therefrom.
and almost everything we need to know about the design
(inside the magnetic black box)
comes to light.


While knowing peak force values is important,
 and should be measured from each direction
this alone tells us little about the total energy involved.


I agree fully. I will be doing measurements of force every 1 degree of movement from dead center where there is no force. As of now I plan to use a pull scale or pressure against a mini scale. It's just what I have to work with. I want to make a prony brake to use since I need one anyway for my other projects. I will doing my best to get good measurements so we know what is behind this whole concept.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #63 on: January 09, 2022, 06:56:14 PM »
Captainpecan,


You can use Goop glue to hold the magnets in place.  It will strongly resist the magnet movement but when you later decide to remove the magnet you can use a pair of pliers and give the magnet a twist and it will come right off.  I've been using it for years for this kind of work.  You could also add some flat washers between the nuts and the metal plates to stiffen the metal plates even more.  The forces of this setup are pretty strong as you are finding out.  How do you plan to go from a test of forces to a working system?  You will need to replace one of each pair of magnets with an electromagnet.  How will you mount the EM?  Just some ideas to pass along to you.  You're looking good so far.


Carroll


PS:  One other thing.  After you are done with your forces test you might want to consider a different flywheel.  Those of us that had the most success were all using a cast iron or steel flywheel.  We think it may have something to do with connecting the magnetic fields from one magnet to another.  My flywheel for instance is a  10 pound cast iron pulley removed from an old air compressor and rebored to take bearings in the center.


Edit:  Looking at your pictures again I see you do have washers on one side of your metal plates.  I would add them to the other side also.


Thanks for your response. I was kicking around what to use on those magnets and your suggestion is exactly what I need. I plan to use these magnets on my next project that took a back seat because I got interested in wanting to test this whole concept first.


As far as the flywheel. I agree, I need something better. I just don't have anything yet and have been looking for something. I designed this so I can ad a flywheel to the protruding shaft easily. I honestly have not even given a thought to the possible magnetic properties of the flywheel being paramagnetic as well. Mostly because I don't even have a metal flywheel to try anyway at this time. I'll find something I can use if needed. I want something to use anyway, just haven't found a good candidate yet.


I may ad more washers when I open things up again. I made it the way it is so I can easily loosen one nut on one side to adjust the gap, as I simultaneously tighten the nut, washer, and lock washer on the opposite side to keep all the tension on it so the magnet doesn't jump on me. Just my initial design ideas. I will evolve of course as needed.


I have predrilled the needed holes to ad 7 more bolts with magnets so there is one every 45 degrees. It's ready to expand out that much if tests go well enough to keep moving forward. That's some of how I designed it for expansion anyway.


As far as the electromagnets. I plan on replacing the top magnet with a vertical electromagnet. That way if all tests go well and there is reason to move forward with the design, it will be very easy to ad a second rotor to use the opposite side of the electromagnet and it's own opposing magnet above it as well. That way I could effectively double the output with the same single pulse of the electromagnet. The shaft protrudes a good 14" outside the unit there is plenty of room to expand it outward and ad longer bolts and more rotors if needed.


Its all of course a work in progress. And I keep changing things on the fly. I basically just want to test the whole concept and see if it is something I want to continue trying to improve since others have been working on it as well. My intuition tells me my other concepts are of more interest to me for a better motor generator design all together. But the entire underlying concept here I want to understand better and may be useful to use in other ways as well. So I will be trying my best to give this concept it's due diligence and trying to understand it all from experience.

Floor

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2022, 11:44:17 PM »
@ captianpecan / all builders.

While some of you all ready know how to do this, any, might benefit
from a review of the files.

Attached below are two PDF files  "Force Graphing 2-2c.pdf"
                                                     and
                                                          "Diminishing Return 2-2e pn.pdf"
             

Together they describe some of what is behind / the whys of, and the how,
                               of measuring the work done as
the interaction of two magnets and the motion due to magnetic forces.

              thanks
                 and
                   regards
 
            floor

   P.S.
The second pdf  "Diminishing Return 2-2e pn.pdf"  should give some idea
as to how fine the increments of displacement and / or of weight, one might
want to use during a give set of measurements.

One often finds that even crude measurements will yield more nearly accurate
results than one has anticipated.

In this the   "tinman"   set, it will be important not to miss the rapid / dramatic change
in force per distance that occurs when the torque plate is near to or between the magnet
/ magnets.

Farther from the magnets, the force to distance will become more nearly a straight
line and therefore, the use of either larger increments of weight and / or distance will
hardly affect the outcome. 

One more (small pdf) file                 "Magnetic Force Measurement.pdf"

Offline captainpecan

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #65 on: January 10, 2022, 02:37:26 AM »
@ captianpecan / all builders.

While some of you all ready know how to do this, any, might benefit
from a review of the files.


Perfect, thank you.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2022, 11:42:56 PM »
Food for thought. Here is a theory I will be adding to my testing.


This 1+1=3 concept, seems others who tried replicating it, were no longer successful after switching a magnet for the electromagnet. Or at least from what others have said in here, they were less successful to transfer the effect into getting extra out while running. Or possibly they are but not able to really see what they were hoping for.... taking this into account brings up a few questions for me I would like to test as I go along.


1. Has anyone been able to actually show the effect is still present when both a permanent magnet and an electromagnet are used at the same time? Does the effect of getting more than double increase and decrease according to how much power is sent to the coil as one would assume, or does it not duplicate, and just increase linearly.


2. Following the assumption that the entire effect is due to magnetic field alone, and not whether or not it is a permanent magnet or an electromagnet, then why use a permanent magnet at all? Why not 2 electromagnets? Just a theory of course, but having both electromagnets, you may be able to get the same effect but the ability to turn off both magnetic fields so we do not have to pull the rotor from the permanent magnet. Possibly a quick pulse through both getting more than double pull into the gap, and near zero while leaving. Therefor being able to actually use all of the increase from the effect.


3. Why not now move the permanent magnets to the back side of the 2 electromagnets. Both electromagnets are facing each other with repulsive pulses exactly like the permanent magnets, but the permanent magnets are still used, just attached to the opposite sides of the electromagnets. From my experiments prior, simply sticking a permanent magnet to the back side of the electromagnet will magnetically assist the electromagnet greatly. How much I've never actually measured. But I do know increasing the strength of the permanent magnet does in fact increase the strength of the electromagnet field for no extra power input.


Maybe we can make that single pulse magnetically assisted to really increase its power, while at the same time getting the benefit from the 1+1=3 effect???


I'm just getting my thoughts out here. What do you think? I plan on testing all this as soon as I get the electagnets made.

Floor

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2022, 11:49:50 PM »
@captainpecan

First order of business, the force over the course of travel measurements.

Second order of business ....

Did anyone test to see or demonstrate that their electromagnet was equal to
the neo. magnet ?  I mean something simple like a lifting test out side of the
tin man fixture ?

Offline captainpecan

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #68 on: January 10, 2022, 11:52:58 PM »
@captainpecan

Did anyone test to see or demonstrate that their electromagnet was equal to
the neo. magnet ?  I mean somthing simple like a lifting test out side of the
tinman fixture ?


Exactly... see, I haven't heard of anyone stating that they have. I intend to do just that. It may be a huge factor, who knows. We should at least be able to rule it out as being crucial or not with a fairly easy test.

Floor

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #69 on: January 10, 2022, 11:54:30 PM »
Yep, that would be a big factor all right.

Online citfta

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2022, 12:42:50 AM »
You guys are assuming that a lot of things weren't done that were actually done.  In the instructions for building the device it was stressed several times that the pull force of the electromagnet needed to be matched as close as possible to the pull force of the neo magnets.  Since neos are so strong that is why it usually meant the core of the electromagnet needed to be about 1/3 of the distance from the torque plate as the  distance of the neo from the torque plate.  And yes the 1+1=3 was demonstrated many times using an electromagnet and neo combination.


As far as your idea captainpecan about using two electromagnets, I found that to be far superior to using a neo and electromagnet.  I won't say any more than that.  But your assumption that the torque plate would leave from between them with no back drag is entirely correct.


Good luck.

Floor

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2022, 12:47:55 AM »
@ citfta

No assuming of any thing.  The fact is, these things were not previously
discussed        here          .



Floor

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2022, 01:51:24 AM »
But since citfta makes no mention of it, I'm guessing that no force measurements
over the course of travel were made ?
... ... ... ... ... ...

if 1neo. + 1neo. =  +3
and 3 - 1 neo. (magnet drag) =  +2
and electric power into 1 electro magnet = 1
then power out = 2 - 1 = +1

if 1 + 1 = 3 (electro magnets)
and 3 - 0 neo magnets = 3
and electric power into 2 electro magnets = 2
then power out = 3 - 2 = +1

if this kind of torque plate(permanent magnet / electro magnet) is more efficient
than conventional motor designs then cool !

if this kind of torque plate(all electro magnet) is more efficient
than conventional motor designs then even cooler !

If the all electromagnet performs better, instead of the same.
             then
1. one's permanent magnet motor version is not performing correctly
              or
2. 1 + 1 is not = 3  here





Floor

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2022, 02:59:12 AM »
Partial quote

In the instructions for building the device it was stressed several times that the pull force of the electromagnet needed to be matched as close as possible to the pull force of the neo magnets.  Since neos are so strong that is why it usually meant the core of the electromagnet needed to be about 1/3 of the distance from the torque plate as the  distance of the neo from the torque plate. 
Good luck.

                         1 permanent magnet and 1 electromagnet

1. the electromagnet being closer is only good while the torque plate
is still between.
2. if 1 + 1 does not = 3 over the course of the travel then the electromagnet being
closer can't improve things.
3. still it remains that, building the motor and testing the input to output ratio
is a valid course to pursue as well.

          best
            wishes
               floor

Floor

  • Guest
Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2022, 03:18:57 AM »
if 1 electromagnet + 1 electromagnet = 3
            then
         very cool
even if this is only while the torque plate is between,
           or
      possibly
even if only during a brief portion of the time during which the torque plate
is between.

if 1 electromagnet + 1 electromagnet = 3 through out the travel...
then coolest of all ?

   again
      best
        wishes