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Author Topic: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.  (Read 18690 times)

Floor

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2021, 05:13:34 PM »
@ Captain pecan

Its acceptable to me that most of us are mere mortals / most of us are
going to flame sometimes / once in a while.

Replications tend  to be problematic at the forum.
A  replication should or even must be very precisely
from the same materials
          and
of the same dimensions
          and
as exactly a replication as possible
          else
it is not a replication.         

Many of the original builds utilize at least some salvaged materials.
This can make experimentation easier for the original builder, and a real
challenge for any one "replicating".

                         It is best to clarify for oneself right off the bat.
                          as replication, quasi replication or variation
            and also
state this right up front for the general readership.
... ... ... ... ... ...
It is quite a different affair to build an electric motor, as opposed
to producing a set of measurements which meet a good level of
accuracy precision and repeat ability.

My    opinion     is that the Tin Man has probably taken the best course
in his approach to measurements.

1. It would be expensive and fairly difficult to set up and precisely measure
the    changes    in the forces of his neo magnets over    such a small    amount
of distance as is present as the travel of the "torque plate".  Neos are powerful
and will flex things out of alignment if they can.
            But this could also be very worth while / valuable.

2. In these specific conditions it is probably best to move on to measurements
as electric power in put and out put / self running. The tin man is especially well
qualified and equipped for such tasks.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
In order to do mechanical measuring, type testing / measurements ....
I recommend starting off with a list of well stated objectives.

Take some time to think it through and to determine what are the mechanical
tolerances your method / device must have in order to meet those objectives. 

Important ... The device needs to be adjustable / can be calibrated but also
mechanically stable / minimize wobble / back lash and so on.

I think it is important to enjoy and take at least a little pride in the project
as well ?

What else.  If you intend to measure forces and distances caused by those forces.
     Best to
Create a precision set of dedicated to the project,    weight objects    to hang from the
device,  either directly or via a pulley.  Plastic bags of sand within cloth bags, plastic
bottles of water,  other.

Use a good quality digital scale to create that weight set.  Fish weighing scales suck.
... ... ... ... ...
You may need to either visually magnify (a lens) or amplify the distance readings
in order to have high pecision.

   floor

P.S.  Thanks for the good reminder  / intervention seychelles
         it is much appreciated.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2021, 08:29:02 PM »
@ Floor,
 I 100% agree about replication has to be as exact as possible or it is not a replication. In this case, I simply don't have the exact stuff to do a perfect replication. For instance, there is no information on the mass of the flywheel or the diameter. My guess is this effect would not be dependent on the flywheel so much as what is going on between those magnets and the gap. But if I wait until I find a piece of 2" exhaust and cut and bend to exact specifications as well as ordering the n32 rectangular magnets with a countersunk hole in them because that hole itself changes the path of the flux, then I will never get building. Of course, wasting time and money on a useless build does nobody any good. However, it appears as if he believes this should be able to be replicated without exact precision of all exact specs. He seems more interested in replicating "the effect" than his experiment exactly. So I am kicking around the best possible way I may be able to possibly replicate "the effect" with the resources I have available. IF it is NOT dependent on the exact curvature of the metal, or the diameter of the flywheel, or having the exact magnets, then MAYBE I can show a greater than double strength which would prove the effect is able to be replicated. Or a failure would also prove that there is more to it than just alignment and gap.


He also isn't exactly specific on width of the metal plate. However he does mention his could stand to be a mil thicker if was to choose. My aim is to get just thick enough to allow like poles to attach to each side in the manner he shows.


And yes, fishing scales suck. I ordered a better scale from amazon earlier I need for my other projects anyway. Maybe it will make it this week with all the shipping delays. But if my plan to replicate the effect fails, I can change each property of it one by one as I get them until I have a duplicate. After all, most of my experiments have ended up proving to me what DOESN'T work. But hey, there is knowledge in that as well... But I'm hoping this will get the job done. I'll post pics here as I get it moving.

Online citfta

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2021, 09:35:03 PM »
For captainpecan.


This is a video of my version of tinman's motor.  I was a member of the private group he abandoned while we were working on his project.  The video has very little information as it was made for the private group that already understood the principles of how the motor was supposed to work.  There were several of us on the project and some of them have very good electrical and mechanical skills.  We were not able to get a self-running machine to work.


However I can tell you that with careful adjustment and measurements you can prove that the 1+1=3 principle does work.  That was proven many times by the group.  For most of us using n42 neos the best metal thickness we found was 1/8th inch mild steel.  Also some of the builders built the motor with the axle of the flywheel horizontal.  And with the metal tabs sticking straight out like you described.  This will make it much easier to measure the forces by simply hanging weights on the end of the metal tabs if you built it like you are suggesting.  We also found that with the n42 neos the cores of the coils we were using needed to be about 1/3 of the distance from the metal tabs compared to the distance of the neos from the metal tabs.


One of the problems most of us or maybe all of us faced was that Brad (tinman) kept insisting we needed a coil with very low inductance so we could get a very quick on and off time of the pulse.  But he also insisted that the coil resistance had to be high in order to keep the current low and thus be able to get a self-running machine.  Those two qualities are opposing characteristics.  As you raise the resistance to get the current down you also raise the inductance and vice versa.  Anyway enjoy the short video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1L78aTVGQ0




Offline captainpecan

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2021, 11:51:37 PM »
For captainpecan.


This is a video of my version of tinman's motor.  I was a member of the private group he abandoned while we were working on his project.  The video has very little information as it was made for the private group that already understood the principles of how the motor was supposed to work.  There were several of us on the project and some of them have very good electrical and mechanical skills.  We were not able to get a self-running machine to work.


However I can tell you that with careful adjustment and measurements you can prove that the 1+1=3 principle does work.  That was proven many times by the group.  For most of us using n42 neos the best metal thickness we found was 1/8th inch mild steel.  Also some of the builders built the motor with the axle of the flywheel horizontal.  And with the metal tabs sticking straight out like you described.  This will make it much easier to measure the forces by simply hanging weights on the end of the metal tabs if you built it like you are suggesting.  We also found that with the n42 neos the cores of the coils we were using needed to be about 1/3 of the distance from the metal tabs compared to the distance of the neos from the metal tabs.


One of the problems most of us or maybe all of us faced was that Brad (tinman) kept insisting we needed a coil with very low inductance so we could get a very quick on and off time of the pulse.  But he also insisted that the coil resistance had to be high in order to keep the current low and thus be able to get a self-running machine.  Those two qualities are opposing characteristics.  As you raise the resistance to get the current down you also raise the inductance and vice versa.  Anyway enjoy the short video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1L78aTVGQ0


Fantastic info, thank you for sharing. It's good to hear that the 1+1=3 has been replicated. I don't expect OU, but this sounds like a very interesting effect I would like to experiment with. Thank you again for the quick advice. It is well noted.

Floor

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2021, 01:16:34 AM »
Yea good input..

... ... ... ... ... ... ...
Notes.
It is difficult to keep a metal plate positioned between two magnets,
(with specific gap widths on ether side, especially if the plate needs to easily
pass straight through the gap.
                  however...
A purely linear movement of the "torque" plate is a vary desirable variation
of which to have measurement sets of.

Good measurements of the attracting force between the torque plate and 1 magnet
and then of the force of 2 magnets attracting the torque plate. 
                           This meaning ...
a set of measurements of the force at distances a, a + a, a + a + a, a +a +a +a, a + a +
 a +a +a (5 ? measurements).  The average force * displacement measurements (then totaled together)  will give us yet more valuable data.

You may find that making and using your own set of weight objects turns out
to be faster and easier than using a digital / pull type force gauge, but may also
require the use of a pulley ?

Mark and increment each weight object in increments of Newtons (also grams).
Example  0.10 N, 0.15 N, 0.20 N, 25 N, 50 N, 100 N, 200 N, 300 N, and so on
(No conversions needed later on) You must find the appropriate ranges / increments
of weights to use, by a little bit of trial and error (only initially).

Offline onepower

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2021, 06:01:37 PM »
floor
Quote
Good measurements of the attracting force between the torque plate and 1 magnet
and then of the force of 2 magnets attracting the torque plate.
                           This meaning ...
a set of measurements of the force at distances a, a + a, a + a + a, a +a +a +a, a + a +

I used to build quite a few motor/generators and ran a different setup.

We can determine the force or force curve along a path by measuring the acceleration. Force>>>Acceleration>>>Velocity>>>Mass-Velocity(momentum)>>>Energy. I placed a small magnet on the flywheel or shaft then used a hall effect sensor or pickup coil to measure how fast the magnetic field changes.

How fast the sensor voltage measurement changes tells us the acceleration at any given time and the acceleration is dependent on the force it is experiencing. The faster the curve changes the greater the acceleration thus the greater the force. It's much easier to measure the force on a DSO or Arduino in real time that using scales.

Basically, with a moving magnet and a fixed unloaded generator coil the slope or rate of change of the voltage is a measure of the acceleration of the magnet and the force applied to it.

Regards
AC

Floor

  • Guest
Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2021, 12:26:47 AM »
@AC

That would be a bit more data.

How soon are you expecting you'll be ready with the charts and graphs for we
readers to see  :)

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2021, 02:12:25 AM »
floor
I used to build quite a few motor/generators and ran a different setup.

We can determine the force or force curve along a path by measuring the acceleration. Force>>>Acceleration>>>Velocity>>>Mass-Velocity(momentum)>>>Energy. I placed a small magnet on the flywheel or shaft then used a hall effect sensor or pickup coil to measure how fast the magnetic field changes.

How fast the sensor voltage measurement changes tells us the acceleration at any given time and the acceleration is dependent on the force it is experiencing. The faster the curve changes the greater the acceleration thus the greater the force. It's much easier to measure the force on a DSO or Arduino in real time that using scales.

Basically, with a moving magnet and a fixed unloaded generator coil the slope or rate of change of the voltage is a measure of the acceleration of the magnet and the force applied to it.

Regards
AC


Not to be he who say nay
But i feel the need to correct a fallacy in your thought process.
Please allow me to explain:


The ‘force’ presented by a magnetic field is not the same as a force from, say pushing or from a rocket engine.
It falls into the category of Impulse Force
Defined by the scalar flux across a defined distance.


Although the equation appears similar to that of gravity,
the magnitudes are exponentially greater and the distances
are exponentially smaller.


What’s the difference?
(without giving a 4 hr lecture)


A force causes acceleration throughout the duration the force is applied.
An Impulse transfers momentum, and acceleration happens over time, after the impulse.



Offline sm0ky2

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2021, 02:16:31 AM »
The reason is because of how the force scales down as it leaves
a majority of the energy transfer occurs faster than the object
can accelerate, conservation of momentum is the equation we have to use.
The momentum of the moving object and the momentum of the Maxwellian
equivalent of magnetic momentum, resultant from the interaction between
two fields.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2021, 02:41:36 AM »
Imagine two equivalent scenarios
A high-velocity bullet
And a speeding vehicle


The momentum of the two are the same (large bullet/small car)


The car hitting you transfers its’ momentum (or a fraction thereof)
and continues moving, pushing you along.


The bullet stops in your chest (or at your vest)
all of the momentum transfers into your body
and Then you move.


Very similar to an elastic collision, such as the delay between when
a que ball hits another ball, and then that ball accelerates across the pool table.


 

Offline onepower

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2021, 03:56:24 AM »
Floor
Quote
That would be a bit more data.
How soon are you expecting you'll be ready with the charts and graphs for we
readers to see

I don't experiment with mechanical devices anymore and trashed all my old test beds a while back. In the picture below, I found an old motor/generator magnetic bearing test bed I invented maybe 9 years ago collecting dust under my bench. It was pretty cool and I can give it a spin by hand and it will continue for eight hours or so. It uses 2" N52 ring magnets in magnetic attraction instead of repulsion which is kind of interesting.

Now I only build and experiment on solid state devices unless I see something that really peaks my curiosity.

Regards
AC


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2021, 04:13:42 AM »
I think this is better than trying to type this stuff


https://youtu.be/cggDEEmcsYc

Offline onepower

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2021, 07:50:57 AM »
smoky2
Quote
Not to be he who say nay
But i feel the need to correct a fallacy in your thought process.
Please allow me to explain:

The ‘force’ presented by a magnetic field is not the same as a force from, say pushing or from a rocket engine.
It falls into the category of Impulse Force
Defined by the scalar flux across a defined distance.

I'm not sure what your getting at and I was talking about using a small magnet on the flywheel of Tinmans motor and a fixed coil to measure force and acceleration. The small magnet and fixed coil is only being used as a sensor.

If we move a magnet quickly towards a coil we get a narrow pulse, if we move it slower we get a wider pulse. Therefore we can use the slope of the pulse in a sine wave to measure the magnet and flywheel's acceleration. If we can measure the acceleration of the flywheel and we know it's mass then we can calculate any change in force applied to the flywheel.

So rather than use a static fish scale on Tinman's motor we could use a magnet and coil to measure any force and acceleration applied to the flywheel while it's spinning.

Regards
AC


Offline seychelles

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2021, 02:10:58 PM »
THE ANSWER TO THIS TEST IS EASY. TEST ONE WITH MAGNETS RECORD CURRENT AT A SPECIFIC VOLTAGE AND CHECK REVOLUTION AFTER 5 SECS. DO THE SAME WITHOUT MAGNETS.

Offline captainpecan

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Re: RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2021, 05:52:18 PM »
One of the problems most of us or maybe all of us faced was that Brad (tinman) kept insisting we needed a coil with very low inductance so we could get a very quick on and off time of the pulse.  But he also insisted that the coil resistance had to be high in order to keep the current low and thus be able to get a self-running machine.  Those two qualities are opposing characteristics.  As you raise the resistance to get the current down you also raise the inductance and vice versa.  Anyway enjoy the short video.


I have been kicking this statement around for a couple days now while I wait for materials to test things. Even though his statement seems impossible because the two characteristics oppose each other. Is it possible that he may have been simply referring to the use of multiple coils in series and it is simply perspective. For instance... when he is referring to a coil of low inductance, could he be referring to just each coil individually. Yet when he is referring to high resistance, he is referring to the multiple coils in series and actually talking about the whole circuits resistance? The low inductance of EACH COIL will allow the quick on off pulse time as it reacts to its ratio of turns (inductance) to core permeance, while from the perspective of multiple low inductance coils hooked in series the resistance increases more and more for each coil added further restricting the current. It's a possible way to satisfy both conditions he says is required at the same time. Understanding that this method would still produce a higher inductance for the series, each coil will have its own lower inductance. Just a thought.