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#### lancaIV

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5031
##### Re: The MAD MAX e-car
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2021, 12:07:57 PM »
Studying numbers,theory and practizise (by experiments) :

rotoverter : motor with coupled generator ,conventional rated motor power / efficiency rate - generator gain

car-rotoverter principle : electric drive and brake energy recuperation

theory :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_brake

The expected gain amounts to

The higher the recuperation efficiency, the higher the recuperation.
The higher the efficiency between the electric motor and the wheels, the higher the recuperation.
The higher the braking proportion, the higher the recuperation.
On motorways, this figure would be 3%, and in cities it would amount to 14%.

Experimental brake energy recuperation number :

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/04/reva_introduces.html
3 KWh from 12 KWh = 30%

We can double the generator efficiency !
We can double the motor efficiency = consume halfing !

(12 KWh /2) - (3 KWh x 2 )= 6 KWh consume - 6 KWh recuperation = Net Zero Energy Drive

Also posssible :

(12 KWh/10 ) - conventional 3 KWh recuperation gain = 1,8 KWh surplus per hour

This is the energetical base for the future "autonomous city drive vehicle" which drives unmanned ,
by legal 30 Km/h speed max. inner-city ,urban zone !

For city-kurier driver,not car but roller :

https://www.log9materials.com/two-wheeler.html

70 Km range x 10 = 700 Km range per battery charge

by legal 30 Km per hour inner-city = 700 Km/30 Km =

23,33 hours drive range

or 2000 Wh capacity/23,33 hours = net 100 W on-board generator for recharging

= endless/non-stop drive potential

Because only 100 W generator for battery recharging in need  https://geospatial.blogs.com/.a/6a00d83476d35153ef022ad3c0d118200b-popup would be wellcomed !

Alternatively :

The device according to the invention can title used like any other source of energy and the power supply of any other electric auto-mobile.

Or auto-nomous mobile

Similar :

For spanish patent office engineers/peers a protection =grantable idea ,now free :

Since 2002 often the basic idea publishing : 1.,3.,4.,13.,14.,15.,16.

I am often "lust-ig aufgelegt" :

http://www.evalbum.com/314        Motor:         1500 W rated assuming 2021 conventional 1750 W peak consume per ? Km

Battery 12 V x 70 Ampére = 840 VA / 49 Km Range = 1715 VA per 100 Km  by assumed average 30 Km*h

x rated capacity DoD ? Lead normally 50% max. !

1750 W/10 = 175 W peak consume per 100 Km as cap-coil motor performance

But 1500 W is the rated motor power here    :

compared the early https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citicar electric motorization : 2,5 hp DC by lower tension !

with cap-coil e-motor and brake energy  recuperation ?

We are developping the REAL-WORLD autonomous drive vehicle,
by real physical/technical and 24/365 street velocity controled speed need,

not over-powered and over-weight  and expensive chaiselongue-on-4-wheels

Tools from point A to point B

easy :
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mrscharroo/6285240557/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mrscharroo/6285248279/in/photostream/

from the same Designer Paul Arzens ,1942, https://es-es.facebook.com/Paris.Insolite.Secret/videos/l%C5%93uf-%C3%A9lectrique-de-paul-arzens-%C3%A0-paris-en-1942/431610784093682/

5x 12 V a 250 Ah lead batteries,totally 300 Kg ,equipped ,70 Km*h peak,100 Km range

electric motor efficiency 1942 ? assuming peak 70% and average < 50%

original ic to electric conversion numbers,1959 :
https://www.renaultgroup.com/news-onair/actualites/henney-kilowatt-la-dauphine-electrique-americaine/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henney_Kilowatt
The 1959 models all ran on a 36-volt system of 18 two-volt batteries in series.
The 36-volt cars had a top speed of 40 miles per hour (64 km/h) and could run approximately 40 miles (64 km) on a full charge.

After the 36-volt system was realized to be impractical, the Kilowatt drivetrain was redesigned by Eureka Williams as a 72-volt system for the 1960 model year.
It employed 12 six-volt batteries in series. The 72-volt models were much more practical than the 1959 36-volt models.
The 1960 Kilowatt boasted a top speed of nearly 60 mph (97 km/h) with a range of over 60 miles (97 km) on a single charge.

many freaky non-/industrial ideas https://www.flickr.com/photos/mrscharroo/6254055384/in/photostream/

GM concept car 1969 https://www.flickr.com/photos/mrscharroo/6075724563/in/photostream/ could be the Citroen AMI  in early stage

https://www.citroen.pt/universo-da-marca-citroen/concept-cars/ami-one-concept.html

https://mymodernmet.com/ultramodern-zero-personal-helicopter/ technical data for performance improvement ?

-2030- and beyond mobility design outlook : https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/465770786453828645/?d=t&mt=signup
« Last Edit: August 14, 2021, 05:58:37 PM by lancaIV »

#### lancaIV

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• Posts: 5031
##### Re: The MAD MAX e-car
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2021, 10:15:52 PM »

How cheap could such an inverter system become realized ,mass production condition ?

For off-grid house and car or as portable energy deliverer/source ?

inverter costs :

https://overunity.com/2606/electricity-saver/

http://www.powerguru.org/planar-transformers-are-essential-for-truly-efficient-electrichybrid-vehicles/

https://web.archive.org/web/20161008041359/http://www.powerguru.org/planar-transformers-are-essential-for-truly-efficient-electrichybrid-vehicles/

It is common for a 5kW planar transformer to cost in the region of   \$23   nowadays,
and in volumes of 100k+ prices below   \$10   per piece are easily achievable.

( Watt rated or Wattpeak ?)

lowest : 10 US\$/5000 W = 1000 US\$cents/5000 W = 0,002 US\$/Wp

PV-on-grid inverter costs
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/38771.pdf

for 2020 a production price estimation :     PV-grid inverter     0,10  US\$/Wp

fifthy times different costs dependent also on-grid/off-grid quality minimum regulation ( clearly also input V and output V)

simple commercial price difference we see for example between " square wave inverter" and " Pure sine wave inverter"

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332265514_Square_Wave_Inverters_-A_performance_Comparison_with_Pure_Sine_wave_Inverters

#### lancaIV

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##### Re: The MAD MAX e-car
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2021, 05:47:22 PM »

http://www.duke-ev.org/prototype-evolution

prototypes electric engine power

Nominal Motor Power: 75 W        Motor: 350W hub motor          Nominal motor power: 250W

1000 Km with 1 KWh battery load by 25 Km*h speed  = 25 W per hour drive consume

200 Wh in 1,5 minutes,8000 VA or 200 Wh in 8 minutes,1500 VA conventional power outlet

20 Wh in   9 seconds,8000 VA   or 20 Wh in 48 seconds,1500 VA conventional power outlet

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from Duke-ev to

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_C5

Electric motor 250 W (0.34 hp) assuming with average 20 Km*h = 250 W/0,9 ( for 90% e-motor efficiency)/ 0,2 = 1400 Wh/100 Km

by application and  1/10 less electric consume   -by given claim-    1400 Wh/10    =        140 Wh/100 Km

or            28W per hour

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Supergasoline ic engine car : REAL-LIFE teste average 6 liter/100 Km

EVs convert over 77% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels.
Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 12%–30% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.

77% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels ,from battery electrical energy to power at the wheels ?

Grid electricity to charger/battery charge losts ?

http://www.duke-ev.org/prototype-evolution  : Motor Controller to Wheel Efficiency: 86%

ic engine car power-to-wheel ratio/efficiency

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1118534_fact-of-the-week-internal-combustion-cars-still-waste-70-to-88-percent-of-energy

This week, the DOE noted that of all the energy splashed into a conventional car's gas tank, only 12 to 30 percent actually goes to move the car down the road.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306261920309752

According to [5], typical values are 10%–13% on urban cycles and about 28% for highway cycles.

electric drive car power-to-wheel ratio/efficiency

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml#:~:text=Energy%20efficient.,to%20power%20at%20the%20wheels.

13%  ic engine /77% electric motor  x 60 KWh (= 6 lt. gasoline) = 10,1 KWh  urban cycle

30%  ic engine /77% electric motor  x 60 KWh (= 6 lt. gasoline) = 23,4 KWh  highway cycle

TARGET

10,1 KWh  urban cycle "average heavy" city cars

less consume,weight                                                                              brake energy recuperation

https://www.voanews.com/silicon-valley-technology/can-better-electric-motor-save-planet

10,1 KWh to +- 5 KWh/100 Km                                                                from 3 KWh to 5 KWh improved generator /100 Km

5 KWh consume - 5 KWh recuperation

= NET ZERO

capacitive cycle motor

1 KWh consume                                                                              unmodified conventional generator : 3 KWh recuperation

power-capacity-and-power-capability comparison  between batteries and capacitors and active/reactive re-/charge time !
« Last Edit: August 17, 2021, 09:19:42 PM by lancaIV »

#### lancaIV

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• Hero Member
• Posts: 5031
##### Re: The MAD MAX e-car
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2021, 10:54:13 PM »
Lavenami,Electrilite,esoro,Garwood super electric car :

comes the basic idea nearest !

With a total weight of less than 800 pounds, the Electric Egg boasted a range of 63 miles and a top speed of 44 M.P.H., respectable performance compared to the few alternatives available at the time.

https://www.hotcars.com/a-detailed-look-back-at-the-loeuf-electrique-concept-car/

The body of the L'Oeuf Electrique Concept Car weighed in at just 66 lbs. which clearly made it a tippity-toe car!

Adding the electric motor bumped up its weight to 198.4 lbs. and it was only after the battery pack was added that the total weight came up to 771 lbs.

It clearly was one of the lightest road-going cars made. The major reason for its extremely lightweight layout was an aluminum shell with plexiglass covering almost more than half of the exterior. Arzens clearly loved to pick his Electric Egg up!

66 lbs or 30 Kg the car body

132,4 lbs  or 60 Kg ( 198,4 lbs -66 lbs ) the electric motor

572,6 lbs or 260 Kg the batteries , 5 x 12 V x 250 Ah = 15 000 VAh , DoD !

Totally  350 Kg the  WW2-era  40´version

2021 ?

66 lbs or 30 Kg the car body

max.      20 Kg the electric motor, permanent magnets

f.e.        Scooter version, 5 KW :     http://www.schillergy.com/pdf/schiller-energy.pdf

the batteries weight : for 15 000 VAh ,with 80%+ DoD

120 Kg   125 Wh/Kg

75 Kg   200 Wh/Kg

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/07/20210730-catl.html

60 Kg   250 Wh/Kg

30 Kg   500 Wh/Kg

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/650_whkg_1400_whl_recharg_batt_new_era_elect_mobility_ymikhaylik_0.pdf

15 Kg 1000 Wh/Kg

https://innolith.com/de/innovative-energietechnologie-von-innolith-ermoglicht-fahrzeugbatterien-fur-ev-reichweiten-von-1000-km/
https://insideevs.com/news/343771/innolith-claims-its-on-path-to-1000-wh-kg-battery-energy-density/

An hundred-twenty-five Kilogram (200Wh/Kg+ battery )

to hundred Kilogram(300 Wh/Kg+ battery) city-car ?

Electric motor power,RPM ?

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27%C5%92uf_%C3%A9lectrique

Motorisation[modifier | modifier le code]Pour contourner le rationnement de carburant durant l'occupation de la France par l'Allemagne pendant la Seconde Guerre mondiale, Paul Arzens motorise son véhicule avec un moteur électrique alimenté par cinq batteries de 300 kg, de 12 volts et 250 Ah, situées sous la banquette, pour une vitesse de pointe de 70 km/h, et une autonomie de 100 km3. Il remplace le moteur électrique à la fin de la guerre, par un moteur à essence monocylindre Peugeot de 125 cm3 et 5,5 ch, pour une vitesse de pointe de 80 km/h4.

5,5 hp  x 0,745 are +  - 4,1 KW  as IC engine powered version ,  by then 80 Km/h instead 70 Km/h peak as electric version !

As ic version less battery weight !

15 000 VAh nominal capacity X 50% DoD lead battery x 50% electric motor (1940) average efficiency = 3750 VAh available net power

60 miles range are +- 106 Km,so we can assume it was a nominal  ( 70 Km/h  peak velocity /106 Km range) x 3750 VA =

2,5 KW rated  electric motor

"learning by doing" and/or "learning by (others their) experience" :

2CV :  inclined position in curve[/font][/size]

[/font][/size]

[/font][/size]
« Last Edit: August 18, 2021, 10:52:29 AM by lancaIV »

#### lancaIV

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• Posts: 5031
##### Re: The MAD MAX e-car
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2021, 11:16:45 AM »
https://www.ina.fr/video/I14267037 time-sequence 0:28 to 0:30 the weight/movement car/driver relation by car leaving

The known problem as "Elk-teste" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXs1Bc489V4      MB Model A and Smart car

Elk or playing kids or unfocused people in the city streets !

Decreasing weight changes car/road,car/driver and car/speed physical parameters !

350 Kg/ 75 Kg driver(f./m.) weight ratio     to    125-100 Kg car weight/75 Kg weight ratio and by same car hight/road ratio and speed  !

Instead hard-top body change to inflatable soft-top "bubble/sphere",an average 2 hours daily mobile use reduce related 24 hours blower use as shelter the blower electric consume !

When 1300 W by 29 sqm area - improved - for given car volume the blower consume per hour to 10 W reduceable !

"open space" mobile with anti-wind/rain/flying objects safety !

That 30 Km/h city speed max car does not need a great electric motor power number, reference :

It has an electric motor powered ( by a fuel cell located ) at the rear of a power of 1.2 kW (1.63 hp).

It has a low top speed of 25 km/h (16 mph) and can achieve an operating range of 350 km (217 mi).

Materials such as carbon, aluminum, plexiglass, glass and carbon fiber make the Roadster a flyweight of 350 kg.

" .....  The F-CELL Roadster is controlled using drive-by-wire technology and has a joystick instead of a steering wheel. ...."

Arzens aluminum, plexiglass  L´OEUF : with joystick instead of a steering wheel ?

25 Km/h   top            1,2 KW   MB F-Cell Roadster

40 Km/h   top            1,5 KW   12 Volt  weight ? http://www.evalbum.com/314

120 Km/h+ top            1,5 KW   230 Volt/50 Hz conventional gasoline car ( with ic engine 800 Kg+ ) to electric modification

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/007633831/publication/DE10011074A1?q=pn%3DDE10011074A1

when 2 KW/Kg by 48 Volt DC  and 10 KW/Kg by 400 Volt AC how heavy becomes an 1,5 KW 230 Volt AC  4000 RPM electric motor ?

http://www.schillergy.com/pdf/schiller-energy.pdf
« Last Edit: August 18, 2021, 04:25:56 PM by lancaIV »

#### lancaIV

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##### Re: The MAD MAX e-car
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2021, 10:39:20 AM »
25 Km/h   top            1,2 KW   MB F-Cell Roadster

40 Km/h   top            1,5 KW   12 Volt  weight ? http://www.evalbum.com/314

120 Km/h+ top            1,5 KW   230 Volt/50 Hz conventional gasoline car ( with ic engine 800 Kg+ ) to electric modification

http://www.evalbum.com/314  :   weight ?
Curb Weight  220 Pounds (99 Kilograms)

Which is the Lavenami average consume per hour ?

1,5 KW 12 Volt motor ( without conversion efficiency knowing)

12 Volt by 70 Ah lead battery

40 Km/h top speed

49 Km range with given nominal lead battery capacity

Calculation :                             Which is the Lavenami average consume per hour ?

for 100 Km range                      12 V x 70 Ah / 0,49 = 1750 VAh nominal lead battery capacity

for 25 Km/h average speed        1750 VAh /4           =   437,5 VAh per hour average

https://federalbatteries.com.au/news/what-depth-discharge-and-why-it-so-important#:~:text=A%20battery's%20depth%20of%20discharge,divided%20by%20battery%20nominal%20capacity.

A battery’s depth of discharge (DoD) indicates the percentage of the battery that has been discharged relative to the overall capacity of the battery. Depth of Discharge is defined as the capacity that is discharged from a fully charged battery, divided by battery nominal capacity. Depth of discharge is normally expressed as a percentage. For, example, if a 100 A h battery is discharged for 20 minutes at a current of 50 A, the depth of discharge is 50 * 20 / 60 / 100 = 16.7 %.

Attention :     Depth of Discharge : to differ A(mpére depth) 50 A/100 A  = 50%  and by time = 16.7 % A(mpére-hour depth)

taking low 50 % for lead battery anf 70% for " deep discharge " batteries

437,5 VAh per hour average  x 0,5 DoD = net(to)  +- 220 VAh

energy consume

220 VAh /0,7                                       =     314 VAh

314 VAh "high  DoD" battery to wheel ratio per hour and 25 Km

We need 1250 VAh battery capacity for 100 Km range

By given Wh(VAh)/Kg alternatives :

the batteries weight : for 15 000 VAh ,with 80%+ DoD

120 Kg   125 Wh/Kg

75 Kg   200 Wh/Kg https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/07/20210730-catl.html

30 Kg   500 Wh/Kg https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/650_whkg_1400_whl_recharg_batt_new_era_elect_mobility_ymikhaylik_0.pdf

15 Kg 1000 Wh/Kg

https://innolith.com/de/innovative-energietechnologie-von-innolith-ermoglicht-fahrzeugbatterien-fur-ev-reichweiten-von-1000-km/

https://insideevs.com/news/343771/innolith-claims-its-on-path-to-1000-wh-kg-battery-energy-density/

1250 VAh battery weight : between 10 Kg and 1,25 Kg for 100 Km range

Arzen L´OEUF curb weight estimation ,2021 standart :

30 Kg car body

10 Kg f.e. 1,5 KW 230 V AC Schiller electric motor and DC/AC inverter

10 Kg battery with 125 Wh/Kg

totals : 50 Kg

with 50% power saving magnet array e-drive improved and on-board 250 W per hour e-generator :

really long range reachable ,practically also autonomous

(  Mr.Birmingham,250 W https://geospatial.blogs.com/.a/6a00d83476d35153ef022ad3c0d118200b-popup are enough !   )

what is here ,by Lavenami numbers analysis,also remarkable ?

What in the Li Yng publication is meaned with up to 9/10 "power savings" !

Rated drive power compared real power per hour consume !

And : https://www.quantum-controls.co.uk/insights/faqs/what-is-cube-law/

rated power/ real energy consume :     A.per hour        B. per 100 Km

http://www.duke-ev.org/prototype-evolution

teach me !

Vehicle Weight: 26 kg race ready

Nominal Motor Power: 75 W

Duke,many thanks !

https://www.log9materials.com/   2000 Wh in 15 minutes charging ( = min. 8000 VA loader)

314 Wh need per hour conventional motor

157 Wh need per hour magnet array motor

- brake energy recuperation /AmWind on tect generator

#### lancaIV

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##### Re: The MAD MAX e-car
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2021, 09:15:56 PM »
Learning from the past is sometimes difficult :

https://simanaitissays.com/2018/04/01/george-constantinescu-scientist-engineer-inventor-automaker-part-2/

https://simanaitissays.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/constantinesco_car.jpg?w=547&h=741

5 hp !?

This water-cooled engine displaced a mere 494 cc and produced 5 taxable hp

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_horsepower

versus Physics  horsepower

How such numbers convertable to electric horsepower numbers ?

Electric DC Watt Volt

Electric AC Watt Volt Hz

Electric Pulse DC Watt Volt Hz duty cycle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Constantinescu

Sonics

In 1918, he published the book A treatise on transmission of power by vibrations[4] in which he described his theory of sonics.

The theory is applicable to various systems of power transmission but has mostly been applied to hydraulic systems.

Sonics differs from hydrostatics, being based on waves, rather than pressure, in the liquid.

Constantinescu argued that, contrary to popular belief, liquids are compressible.[5]

Transmission of power by waves in a liquid (e.g. water or oil) required a generator to produce the waves and a motor to use the waves to do work, either by percussion (as in rock drills) or by conversion to rotary motion.[2]

compared

https://www.engineair.com.au/

Our engines diameter is not much bigger than a flip out mobile phone; yet has sufficient force to power a car. A single engine can power a 600kg car.

This small engine weighs little more than a bag of potatoes (6 kg) and has no more than 10 major components.

Our engine achieves a mechanical efficiency of 90% and delivers constant torque with virtually no friction. Only 1 PSI (≈ 6,8 kPa) of pressure is needed to overcome the friction.

climate change by temperature

https://web.archive.org/web/20110929000932/http://www.engineair.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=18&Itemid=12

A 4 litre internal combustion engine is in fact using approximately a 1/4 of a million litres of air per hour running at 2000 rpm.

The consumption of petrol in this case is for generating hot air, it is that hot air that pushes the pistons and powers a vehicle.

1/4 of a million litres of air before engine entering and after engine process outgassing temperature change ?

https://www.toppr.com/guides/physics/fundamentals/density-of-air-how-to-calculate-air-density/

The density of air is about 1.225 kilogram per cubic meter (kg/m3) at 15 degree Celsius and at sea level.
Also, this is the value according to the International Standard Atmosphere (ISA).
If we talk about other units then it is 1225.0 gram per cubic meter (g/m3), 0.0765 lb./ (cu ft.), or 0.0023769 slug/ (cu ft.)

How many joules does it take to raise air 1 degree?

Air has a heat capacity of about 700 Joules per kg per °K and a density of just 1.2 kg/m3,
so its initial energy would be 700 x 1 x 1.2 x 293 = 246,120 Joules
— a tiny fraction of the thermal energy stored in the water.

Energy required to heat up 100m³ of air by 10C from 10C to 20C

Formula:

specific heat capacity of substance x mass of substance x temperature difference

Specific heat capacity of air is 1.006 kJ/kgC

Mass of air:density of air at 10C is 1.2466 kg/m3 and mass = density x volume = 1.2466 x 100 = 124KG

Temperature differential = 10C

energy needed = 1.006 x 124 x 10 = 1247 KJ

1247        KJ    for   10°K   increase   of   100 cbm of air

/10

124,7      KJ    for     1°K  increase  of   100 cbm of air

/ 100

1,247 KJ    for   1°K increase   of     1 cbm of air

compared

246,120 Joules

1 247 Joules/246 120 Joules

How do IPCC climate change researcher in their well air conditionized rooms temperature changes calculate ?

#### lancaIV

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##### Re: The MAD MAX e-car
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2021, 10:57:57 PM »
Not cause the relatively ugly car design but because the innovative battery-concept,range extending :

#### lancaIV

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##### Re: The MAD MAX e-car
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2021, 02:52:23 PM »
Like a Pashtune becomes a Talib´an

a Citroen Ami

becomes an

Only other Outfit ! For the same input !

Is this shame ?

That cute plastic cube, which is equipped with a 5.5 kWh battery, which with the help of a 9 HP electric motor can travel 75 kilometers and can be recharged in just under 3.5 hours at the household socket.

Why they -the engineers/propagandists- do not give KW or Nm as orientation ?

6,7 nominal/rated KW electric motor

#### lancaIV

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##### Re: The MAD MAX e-car
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2021, 03:38:22 PM »
What do we know about the "rotoverter"-performance ? A motor-generator couple !

Can this become an electric car/vehicle drive system ?

They think/thought : Yes !   https://web.archive.org/web/20071119131255/http://www.trinitymotors.net/  POWERMAX-concept

When using this configuration as an electric car drive, the range can be at least doubled.

This means "physically" 50% waste energy recapture by direct motor-generator couple !

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=DE&NR=3713965A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=19881103&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

we see two independent machine units !

+  Motor improvement !

+  Generator improvement !

when under original idea : 100    e-units motor in and 50 e-units average generator back = 50 e-units net consume = range doubling

66,6  e- units average motor modified consume

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?FT=D&date=20080812&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=7411363B2&KC=B2&ND=4

and 50 e-units average conventional generator back

= 16,6 e-units net consume = range 6X

50    e-units average motor modified consume

and 50 e-units average conventional generator back

= near Net Zero consume , nearly limitless range

Generator modification : Arestov double winding

Tudor-Frunzi (ROM) generator

Kango Iida generator

David Yurth generator coil coating

and  e-tank                   https://www.patentsencyclopedia.com/app/20090079393

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

unmodified

and

= limitless drive

100 / Saburo factor 4 or 5 = 20 to 25 units consume - 50 e-units recapture = surplus electricity production

for e-bikes 100 or 200 or ....  Watt Rust rotoverter and appropriate

numbers/quantity of nichrome wires

= limitless range

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: The MAD MAX e-car
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2021, 05:27:12 PM »
Rotoverters are typically used to convert single phase to three phase
electricity.

Three phase electicity is desireable in industrial applications using electric
motors (it is more efficient the single  phase).
Note.. more efficient for motors, but not more efficient for ohmic heating.

Three phase is generally not available / provided, except in commercial and industrial
parts of a city or region.

Industrial equipment commonly, is equiped with three phase motors.
If three phase power is not available at the location at which the equipment is
installed, a single rotoverter might be used instead of replacing the three phase
motors on several pieces of machinery.

This is a short term savings, but also  a long term increase in costs.

Using a rotoverter to run a three phase motor on single phase, is even less
energy efficient than using a single phase electric motor.

... ... ... ...

It is more efficient to use the electricity from solar pannels, wind mills and other
kinds of electric power sources directly into the motors and so on
(as that electricity is being produced).
because
Energy is wasted / converted to heat when an electric cell or battery is charged.
How much is wasted depends upon the type of cell. Then again, heat is produced
(in the battery) / energy is wasted during battery discharge.

As much as 50% +-  can be wasted this way ?

#### lancaIV

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5031
##### Re: The MAD MAX e-car
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2021, 05:34:05 PM »

It is more efficient to use the electricity from solar pan(n)els, wind mills and other kinds of electric power sources directly into the motors and so on(as that electricity is being produced).

For the Vale http://www.habiter-autrement.org/12.energies/16_ener.htm electric consume lights, appliances and cooking 1,200 kWh

https://oeko-energie.de/energieberatung/index.php Standart Household Intelligent Household

and/or mtbest.net the e-consume

how ,floor,do you controle a. the peak/inrush current during inertia phase and b. how do you calculate the VA need ?

electric-motor rated W x 6-10 inrush phase                   or x3 with inrush current limiter  ( Dirac surges )          and

the appliances seriell or parallel in use ?

500 W rated power = 3000-5000 W inrush phase demand !

100 W incandescent bulb = up to 200 times the rated value

homebus-engineering from the 80´:

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: The MAD MAX e-car
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2021, 06:34:58 PM »

It is more efficient to use the electricity from solar pan(n)els, wind mills and other kinds of electric power sources directly into the motors and so on(as that electricity is being produced).

...

Your out of context quote  =  a misquote

actual quote / complete quote is
It is more efficient to use the electricity from solar pannels, wind mills and other
kinds of electric power sources directly into the motors and so on
(as that electricity is being produced).
because
Energy is wasted / converted to heat when an electric cell or battery is charged.
How much is wasted depends upon the type of cell. Then again, heat is produced
(in the battery) / energy is wasted during battery discharge.

As much as 50% +-  can be wasted this way ?

#### lancaIV

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5031
##### Re: The MAD MAX e-car
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2021, 06:50:35 PM »
I see a problem :

electric power sources directly into the motors and so on

It is an energy ,here electrical, management and network controle issue !

an example :

http://www.habiter-autrement.org/12.energies/16_ener.htm

lights, appliances and cooking 1,200 kWh

1975 efficiencies !

1200 KWh /365,25  days = 3280 Wh electric consume per day

with 2021 conventional electric magnet motor and LED/+controler and  cooking related : heatelement/controler reduceable to

2400 Wh electric consume per day / 24 h

= 100 W net per hour electricity generation and storage = 2400 VAh battery

with a detailed appliances units list we can calculate the reducement potential,inductive or resistive or conductive unit

2400 Wh can be the consumption from 10 000 W and more rated appliances,but only short time working :

toaster each 4-5 minutes   800 Watt rated but +- 70 Wh per use cycle

coffemachine 5-7 minutes 1500 W  rated but  +- 150 Wh per use cycle

et cetera

hot water boiler 4-5- minutes

baking owen  1/2 hour - 2 hours +

mixer

fridge 100 W rated motor but in average 800 Wh per day consume

..............

battery set total input /output efficiency ?

http://www.bticcs.com/

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: The MAD MAX e-car
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2021, 07:13:48 PM »
Partial quote continued

how ,floor,do you control a. the peak/inrush current during inertia phase and b. how do you calculate the VA need ?

electric-motor rated W x 6-10 inrush phase                   or x3 with inrush current limiter  ( Dirac surges )          and

the appliances seriell or parallel in use ?

500 W rated power = 3000-5000 W inrush phase demand !

100 W incandescent bulb = up to 200 times the rated value

homebus-engineering from the 80´:

Yes I agree, you are correct Lanka.

Peek current flow due to inrush is caused by the motor starting circuits (in appliance motors)
in order to over come inertia.

Initially / typically, an electric motor needs more current to get it up to speed when it
is first started.

Also a slow turning heavily loaded motor may draw more amperage than when it is running
at its designed for RPMs.

Incandescent lights and electric heaters, have a low electrical resistance before they reach operating temperature and  initially /  briefly draw high amperage.

Example Problem

1 million people in a city, arrive at home from work within a 30 minute time span
and turn on their air conditioners and an electric tea pot.  During that 30 minute time
span, the electrical grid may requite several times the normal electric current, due to a
very large number of air conditioners starting simultaneously (start up current).

Large electric power generating plants cannot rapidly react to sudden demand increases.
They are built to produce at a constant power rate. Whether that power is needed or not.
Whether that rate is sufficient to the load or not.

The power supply lines are designed with a maximum sustained current flow.  They can
handle larger flows but only briefly, before they over heat or circuit breakers trip.

Smart power grids can only do so much to alleviate the problem unless individual
homes and / or appliances are communicating with the grid and delaying and sequencing
their motor start ups and so on.

edit / more
Building power plants large enough to accommodate peak current flows is wasteful.
Burning fuel at a rate which is higher than typically needed is not good.

Most power plants operate at one speed only / one power production rate only. They are
designed to be "efficient" unto their selves within a certain rate of steam turbine speed /
fuel consumption rate and so on.

Solar and wind tech are intermittent.  They are most efficient as point of use and time
of production use.

regards
floor