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### Author Topic: Mechanical device uses geometry  (Read 4080 times)

#### activ25

• Full Member
• Posts: 161
##### Mechanical device uses geometry
« on: April 28, 2020, 07:15:04 PM »
I used that device :

https://postimg.cc/3kQHMSyn

To prove this one :

https://postimg.cc/gn81QsNY

creates also an energy. The energy from friction is lower than the energy from the movement of the circle.

Note1: I control in position the circle and the red wall with a motor (for the red wall) and a cylinder (for the circle). I count all the energy needed/recovered from these devices. I count also the potential energy stored inside the elastic for the example with the elastic or the energy from heating from the friction.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 05:18:06 AM by activ25 »

#### telecom

• Hero Member
• Posts: 559
##### Re: Mechanical device uses geometry
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2020, 12:48:50 AM »
How exactly does it work =what is the main idea?

#### activ25

• Full Member
• Posts: 161
##### Re: Mechanical device uses geometry
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2020, 03:39:47 AM »
It is a counterexample to demonstrate the sum of energy is not always conserved. At start, I study the example with the friction, but even I see the slip, there is no method to calculate directly the energy from friction with 2 objects in movement in the same time, so I designed the example with the needle and the elastic.

The circle and the red wall are controlled in position by external devices (cylinder, motor), I count the energy I give and I count the energy I recover. The external devices control the 2 objects to have always the contact between the 2 objects, just the contact, not more.

For the two examples: the circle moves in horizontal translation to the right (the circle doesn't rotate around itself). The red wall rotates clockwise around A0. For the example with the needle+elastic: for a small movement of the circle+rotation of the wall, I lost d1*F from the movement of the circle and I win d2*F from the elastic. The sum of energy is (d2-d1)*F: the energy is destroyed. If I place a repusive force I create the energy, just place the needle in the other side of the dot of contact between the circle and the red wall (the needle must be blocked by the surface of the circle and the red wall).

I can change the elastic by a magnet, an electromagnet, a spring.

I'm not trying to build a continuous movement, I study the sum of energy during a small movement. To break the conservation of the energy I need only 2 object (with the friction): the circle and the wall. If I want to create the energy, I need 2 objects and 2 repulsive forces, one on the dot B the other on the needle.

#### lancaIV

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 4980
##### Re: Mechanical device uses geometry
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2020, 04:41:45 AM »
It is a counterexample to demonstrate the sum of energy is not always conserved. At start, I study the example with the friction, but even I see the slip, there is no method to calculate directly the energy from friction with 2 objects in movement in the same time, so I designed the example with the needle and the elastic.

The circle and the red wall are controlled in position by external devices (cylinder, motor), I count the energy I give and I count the energy I recover. The external devices control the 2 objects to have always the contact between the 2 objects, just the contact, not more.

For the two examples: the circle moves in horizontal translation to the right (the circle doesn't rotate around itself). The red wall rotates clockwise around A0. For the example with the needle+elastic: for a small movement of the circle+rotation of the wall, I lost d1*F from the movement of the circle and I win d2*F from the elastic. The sum of energy is (d2-d1)*F: the energy is destroyed. If I place a repusive force I create the energy, just place the needle in the other side of the dot of contact between the circle and the red wall (the needle must be blocked by the surface of the circle and the red wall).

I can change the elastic by a magnet, an electromagnet, a spring.

I'm not trying to build a continuous movement, I study the sum of energy during a small movement. To break the conservation of the energy I need only 2 object (with the friction): the circle and the wall. If I want to create the energy, I need 2 objects and 2 repulsive forces, one on the dot B the other on the needle.

searchmachines : f.e. espacenet "endless band" as theme ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolamite Principle,work concept,directions ?

https://tpc.googlesyndication.com/simgad/10974894534753781211?sqp=4sqPyQQ7QjkqNxABHQAAtEIgASgBMAk4A0DwkwlYAWBfcAKAAQGIAQGdAQAAgD-oAQGwAYCt4gS4AV_FAS2ynT4&rs=AOga4qktsQlHV5Sn-DUBOfft8vztQGjJjg

#### activ25

• Full Member
• Posts: 161
##### Re: Mechanical device uses geometry
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2020, 09:10:38 AM »
The circle can be any curved shape like an ellipse.
The red wall can be any curved shape too like a part of a circle.
The needle can be anything small enough to be between the 2 surfaces of the circle and the red wall.
The elastic can be a spring, 2 magnets, 2 electromagnets, 2 electrostatic charges, etc.
The movement of the circle is not necessary straight line it could be curved.
The axis A0 is not necessary fixed on the ground, it could be in movement.

#### telecom

• Hero Member
• Posts: 559
##### Re: Mechanical device uses geometry
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2020, 03:56:13 AM »
Can you make some kind of a hand sketch to illustrate?
I have a hard time opening your drawing.

#### activ25

• Full Member
• Posts: 161
##### Re: Mechanical device uses geometry
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2020, 06:01:37 AM »
I updated the drawing.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 01:49:43 PM by activ25 »

#### activ25

• Full Member
• Posts: 161
##### Re: Mechanical device uses geometry
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2020, 02:38:38 PM »
I simulated it with Algodoo and the sum of energy increases at start.

#### activ25

• Full Member
• Posts: 161
##### Re: Mechanical device uses geometry
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2020, 05:18:57 PM »
In fact, it doesn't work with the friction IF the circle doesn't rotate aruond itself. so I replace the circle by a pinion and the red wall by a rack. I control in position the rack and the pinion. I move the pinion in translation and I try to rotate it more than I can (the rack prevents to rotate more), like that there are forces on the rack from the pinion and from the rack to the pinion. I win d1*F and I lost d2*F.

#### r2fpl

• Hero Member
• Posts: 612
##### Re: Mechanical device uses geometry
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2021, 01:34:26 PM »
I simulated it with Algodoo and the sum of energy increases at start.

Algodoo it's a buggy program! At the beginning of my adventure with FE, I made a few FE devices on it! Hahahahaha it all only worked on this program.
If you want to simulate, there are special programs for industry. This is CAD and then overlays.
Electronics simulation programs do FE too