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### Author Topic: Is output four times the input?  (Read 2833 times)

#### vineet_kiran

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 382
##### Is output four times the input?
« on: June 17, 2021, 10:44:12 AM »

Power transmission is 2𝝅nT.  For both green and yellow wheel, everything is same except speed (n). Is output power from green wheel is four times more than input power to yellow wheel because speed (n) is four times more?

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/work-torque-d_1377.html

#### lancaIV

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5180
##### Re: Is output four times the input?
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2021, 11:56:29 AM »
Good Morning,vineet_kiran,

https://overunity.com/2238/cheap-wind-farming/ reply #5 and 10 !

speed increase/ force increase          square law or cube law ?
speed decrease/ force decrease       inverse square law or inverse cube law ?

F = BIL (f=force, b=magnetic field, i=current, l=length of conductor)
F = Bqv (f= force, b= magnetic field, q= charge of particle, v= velocity)

Recommending also :

[0015,0016,0017,0018,0019 ,0038,0039,0040]

Mukherjee generator citation End.

in very BIG the numbers and effect ratio:

A   100 meters diameter           =     0,5 MW  output          diameter/output ratio

B   200 meters diameter           =     5   MW                      A/B 2 times / 10 times

C 1000 meters diameter           = 500    MW                     B/C 5 times /100 times

D 2000 meters diameter          =   ?                                 C/D  2 times/

The maximum possible diameter of a KITE WIND GENERATOR is one of the objects of study of this project, but from the initial evaluations, it appears possible to exceed 5,000MW (5 Gigawatts) without great structural risks, with a diameter of slightly more than 2000 metres.

https://web.archive.org/web/20061109062733/http://sequoiaonline.com/blogs/ARCHIVIOscelti/intro_eng.pdf

D 2000 meters diameter/ A 100 meters diameter = 20   : in v cube = 8000 x 0,5 MW = 4000 MW (4 GW)

When 2000 metres diameter  and 5000 MW then for 100 metres diameter :

inverse(= decrease)  cubic  law : 5000/(2000/100)v3 = 0,625 MW

Question : is by Sequoia Automation the B and D output right "offered"/calculated  ?

by "cube law"when  A =        0,5 MW

then   B =         4    MW

then   C =     500 MW

finally D =   4000 MW

#### vineet_kiran

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 382
##### Re: Is output four times the input?
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2021, 02:18:16 PM »
In normal gear system, speed and torque are adjusted by adjusting gear ratio.  We cannot get higher speed with equal size (diameter) gears. But in this case the size (diameter) of both wheels are same but speed is four times more.  Hence work which is Torque X  angular distance has to be four times more.  Is that correct?

The catch here is that,  the neo magnets on two wheels, side by side attract with terrific force and that force acts on bearings axially.  May be considerable energy is required to overcome this force.

#### lancaIV

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5180
##### Re: Is output four times the input?
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2021, 02:34:59 PM »
When by the delivered video model the wheel magnets are take away ?
assumption : 1/1 diameter green/yellow wheels speed 1/1
green wheel direction/yellow wheel direction ?

green wheel magnets number and size/yellow  wheel magnets number and size
16 small /4 great ~ 4 small per great

The ratio green/yellow wheels their "magnetic torque amplifier" :

great magnets circumference and surface area ( N and S )

small magnets circumference and surface area ( N and S )

how many interchanges,attractive/repulsive, per minute ?

the distance " great magnets middle point as ring" from shaft / the distance " small magnets middlepoint as  ring" from shaft ?

these are parameters for more experiments/ 3d printer modelling !

2+x green/yellow wheels  on a shaft seriell
2+x green/white wheels on each own shaft parallel coupled ( magnet force amplifying battery)

One side electrified( motoric/generatoric)

wmbr
OCWL
p.s.: partial related Camille Bruneel US3247407

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: Is output four times the input?
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2021, 05:14:18 PM »
The simplest and most straight forward formula is, force times displacement
equals work.

Unless the device is receiving energy from the magnets,
the force available on one wheel is 1/4 of the force applied to the
other wheel while its displacement is 4 times greater.
Or
When the prime force is applied to the other wheel instead,  the force
available from the second wheel is 4 times the force applied to the first
wheel but the displacement (rotation) is 1/4 of the first wheel.

Before considering friction losses and so on, the energy is the same input or
output.

force for distance
OR
distance for force,
force times displacement equals work done.

Unless...
The magnets can contribute some additional energy to the motions ?

In which case, weights if hung by strings upon the wheels (as if they were pulleys)
will not balance at a 4 to 1 ratio ?

A simple test.

A smaller weight lowering, will lift, a greater weight a distance which is
greater than or equal to the distance the smaller weight travels downward.

#### lancaIV

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5180
##### Re: Is output four times the input?
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2021, 05:37:22 PM »
Who thinks that the lever/-arm/-length can/wil not be applied here ?
Positive torque ( counterclockwise rotation)meets negative torque( clockwise rotation ) in _kirans delivered video demo !

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: Is output four times the input?
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2021, 11:48:02 PM »
@ LankaIV

Not me.

floor

#### vineet_kiran

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 382
##### Re: Is output four times the input?
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2021, 02:46:34 AM »
The simplest and most straight forward formula is, force times displacement
equals work.

Unless the device is receiving energy from the magnets,
the force available on one wheel is 1/4 of the force applied to the
other wheel while its displacement is 4 times greater.

That is true when diameters of two wheels are different.  For same diameter wheels, force has to be same on both wheels.  It is same as applying force on a single solid wheel in which force is equal at all points on the surface.

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: Is output four times the input?
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2021, 03:25:25 AM »
"That is true when diameters of two wheels are different.  For same diameter wheels, force has to be same on both wheels.  It is same as applying force on a single solid wheel in which force is equal at all points on the surface."

It is an interesting magnet interaction.

" For same diameter wheels, force has to be same on both wheels."

Not if the linkage between the wheels is through either, levers or magnetic forces.

It is known, although not perhaps well known that...

Magnets can interact and in so doing behave in very much the same way as
mechanical levers interact. Gears and pulleys are round levers. No doubt.

The topic is is titled "Is output four times the input?"

If by out put in terms of distance... yes
If by out put in terms of energy...  I think not in this instance.

All I was stating, was that...

trading force for distance, whether accomplished using levers or by using magnets...
neither...
in and of itself, is an indication of free energy or a net gain in work done.

Keep up the good work
regards
floor

#### vineet_kiran

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 382
##### Re: Is output four times the input?
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2021, 05:52:57 AM »

Magnets can interact and in so doing behave in very much the same way as
mechanical levers interact. Gears and pulleys are round levers. No doubt.

Magnetic field is non-physical and is flexible.  A lever is made of solid material with solid bonding.  You can hit somebody with a lever but not with magnetic field.  When two magnets interact, the force acts on the base ie., on magnets from which field originates.  On a lever, the force acts on the point of application.  You cannot take distance between magnets as lever length because force acts on the base(magnet).

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: Is output four times the input?
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2021, 08:36:09 AM »
Magnetic field is non-physical and is flexible.  A lever is made of solid material with solid bonding.  You can hit somebody with a lever but not with magnetic field.  When two magnets interact, the force acts on the base ie., on magnets from which field originates.  On a lever, the force acts on the point of application.  You cannot take distance between magnets as lever length because force acts on the base(magnet).

1. Magnetic field is non-physical and is flexible.  true
But any physical lever has also some degree of flexibility.

2. A lever is made of solid material with solid bonding. true
But all physical objects are composed entirely of energy, and
that property which we call solid is energy's tendency to sometimes
persist in stable patterns.  What we perceive as solid and measure as force is
the resistance to change in those patterns of energy.  All physical objects in our world
are composed of vastly more space than substance.

3. You can hit somebody with a lever but not with magnetic field.
You can levitate a frog with a great enough magnetic force.  If you can lift it
you can also smack it.

4. You cannot take distance between magnets as lever length because force acts
on the base(magnet). true
But you can to a degree, take the distance between multiple magnetic poles as
lever length.

#### vineet_kiran

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 382
##### Re: Is output four times the input?
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2021, 08:51:10 AM »
@Floor

This video is more clear :

In description he has mentioned that,  the rotor slips when excess torque is applied.  A solid lever can take excess torque because of its material strength but a magnetic coupling slips as bondage is not strong.  Hence we may not be able to take any excess torque.
Anyway it is a very interesting experiment.

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: Is output four times the input?
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2021, 06:32:25 PM »
... ... ... very ... ... ...