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2022 builders survivor board => Floors MMM-2 builders board => Topic started by: Floor on May 28, 2021, 08:46:34 PM
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This design goes back to 2017.
Some folks are well aware of it, since that time.
Others missed out on it.
Out put
1.
740 g at 1/2 inch
700 g at 9/16
650 g at 5/8
600 g at 5/8
550 g at 11/16
500 g at 3/4
450 g at 13/16
400 g at 7/8
350 g at 31/32
300 g at 1 1/16
250 g at 1 3/16
200 g at 1 5/16
150 g at 1 5/8
100 g at 1 3/4
50 g at 2 9/16
input
2.
Shield out < 5 grams by 2 inches
input
3.
Shield in < 5 grams by 2 inches
out put
4.
Return of out put magnets to starting position is also an out put /
a net gain in energy as mechanical work.
As a very conservative set of calculations, this is a 20 input to 600 out put ratio
or 30 X unity.
floor
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4 and 1/2 minute video
@
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x81ld01
best wishes
floor
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SO LETS TEAR THIS THING APART NOW.
Out put
1.
740 g at 1/2 inch
700 g at 9/16
650 g at 5/8
600 g at 5/8
550 g at 11/16
500 g at 3/4
450 g at 13/16
400 g at 7/8
350 g at 31/32
300 g at 1 1/16
250 g at 1 3/16
200 g at 1 5/16
150 g at 1 5/8
100 g at 1 3/4
50 g at 2 9/16 = 412 work units
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
The last quarter inch of travel, when the shield is in, is in attraction.
An additional 1/4 inch would be available, except that the magnet holding
fixture interferes.
unaccounted for
With out the thickness of the shield magnet fixture (in the way)
OUTPUT travel (while the shield is in) would have an additional 1/4 inch of
OUTPUT travel (while the shield is in) and (while force is at or near maximum).
also
unaccounted for
With out the thickness of the shield magnet fixture (in the way), the main
output (while the shield is out) would have an additional 1/4 inch of OUT PUT
travel (while at or near to the maximum force is available).
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
When the shielding magnet is positioned / optimized (up and down) for
VERY NEAR TO ZERO INPUT AGAINST MAGNETIC FORCE
during insertion and / or removal...
There is a repulsion force present (at the distal range of travel) while the shield
magnet is in place. This force gives rise to the need for an INPUT in order to return
the out put magnet to its start position.
but...
That force reverses direction (changes to attraction) as the OUTPUT magnet becomes
near to the shield magnet.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
When the device is operated such that the output travel range is limited to around 5/8
of an inch, output occurs when the shield is removed and then again when the
shield is restored.
With modification of the output magnet holding fixture, the range of travel would
become, 7/8 inch (5/8 + 1/4).
With first an average force of > 607 grams over the 7/8 inch travel, then
an average force of around > 150 grams over 1/2 inch of travel, while an
additional 3/8 inch of travel is at neutral force.
In this mode of operation, and when considering that both shield installation
and removal can actually approach zero work against magnetic forces, the device
becomes, in this context almost pure O.U..
best wishes
floor
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Given that an ideal operation is not achievable, still I think
a ratio of somewhere from 10 to 15 to 1 is realistic (Output to input).
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Output strokes of any length can be arrived at.
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The magnet stacks, which I have ON MY BENCH AT PRESENT
(A and B illustrated below), are not well matched.
One of the sets of magnets is stronger than the other.
This was not intentional nor by design, but by chance.
If the magnets in those stacks (on my bench) were more nearly
identical in terms of their force magnitudes, their interactions
would be significantly different.
On my bench, the shield magnet is not vertically centered in
relationship to the magnet stacks. Instead (in order to arrive at
zero force insertion / removal) the shield magnet has been shifted
down ward from center.
If the stacks were well matched, zero force to insert / remove the
shield magnet, would be made possible when the shield magnet
is centered vertically in relationship to the two stacks of magnets? (? is an edit)
Under those conditions, we would get a better input to output
ratio, through the four step interactions (longer / better output
travel distances) ?
floor
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Output 1.
an average force of > 607 grams over the 7/8 inch travel (repelling).
7/8 inch = 0.875 inch
0.875 x 607 g = 531.125 work units
then
Output 2.
an average force of around > 150 grams over 1/2 inch of travel (attracting),
while an additional 3/8 inch of travel is input (against zero magnetic force).
0.5 inch x 150 g = 75 work units
... ... ... ... ... ... .,. ...
531.125 + 75 = 606.125 total work units out by magnetic force.
At nearly zero input against magnetic force (we will give it <5 grams)
edited below (from 1.75 inches to 1.875 inches)
1.875 inch shield travel x 2 (insertion then removal) = 3.75
3.75 inches x 5 g = 18.75 work units input
18.75 in to 606.125 out ratio.
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You can see what the output action in this design is like,
near the end of this video https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x81pgdx
@ the 16 minute mark.
Although that video is of the Magnet Force shielding 2 design, the actions
are the same as in the Magnet Force shielding 1 design.
Measured out, the Magnet Force shielding 1 design outputs around
34 times the input. The Magnet Force Shield design 2 is not going to
perform as well. It might even come out at unity ? I don't know.
I'm still not, at this time, set up to do those measurements to my satisfaction.
floor
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I occasionally put this design (Magnet force shielding 1) on the bench
(again yesterday), just to check my own sanity :).
Its good.
floor
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Floor I appreciate your continued work. I have been too occupied to do this but I have a few comments. 1st mount your camera so it does not move around. I made a U shape with groves in the sides of the U that my camera slips right into to hold it. Then I mounted this on a pedestal that I can move around to get a good view or change views.
2nd I put your grams and distance into a spread sheet calculating the grams times the distance moved for each increment of work out and then work in vs out got OU 39 which is very good...congratulations. I almost always use spread sheets to eliminate calculator keying errors.
I tried the stack setup before and had no luck so this time I am using the 4 magnet setup in repel mode "the Magnet Force shielding 2 design"
My test is gluing right now so I won't have any results till this evening or tomorrow.
The other thing is you keep changing topic and threads and I don't catch the new threads all the time. but the unread overunity feature helps.
Norman
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@ Norman6538
Howdy
I've always had more optimism than successes, but learned just as much
from the unsuccessful as from the successful.
Presenting things on the fly, optimism and all, may make it seem as though
my methods are / have been unscientific, but this is never so in the end.
I'm not trying to disappoint anyone. People used to say "don't believe every thing
that your read", but it seems like this has been forgotten in the internet age. A healthy
mix of optimism and skepticism (not cynicism) is needed.
Having this design in my pocket so to speak, for some time (years) now, has given me
reason to continue exploring other designs and variations.
Don't get me wrong,
It's not that I have hidden it (at all). I simply didn't shove it down peoples throats.
See for your self, and so on has been / still is my course.
floor
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Arriving at a near to zero input work against magnetic forces
while inserting and removing the shunting / shielding magnets
is the primary goal.
Then arriving at the optimal output magnet travel distance.
Note.
The shield magnets will demagnetize each other eventually.
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O.U. becomes what ?
From the movie Harold and Maud.....
"Dreyfus once wrote from Devil's Island that he would see the most glorious birds."
(In the distance / from his cell window ?)
"Many years later in Brittany he realized they had only been sea gulls... For me they
will always be - glorious birds. "
Maud
best wishes
floor
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Floor I need a clarification on the mag polarities for the magnet that moves in between the 2 attracting or repelling magnets.
Using 2 mags, if you lay to mags down side by site with opposite polarities up they will pull together and stick. Is that the correct polarity of those mags?
When I test the two mags with opposite polarities up I see an imbalance between the intended balanced attraction and repelling of those mags as they approach (along the line where they are joined) the stator magnet.
Thus unable to achieve a balance to make this work nor get measurements.
Leedskalnin has said that north or south magnets push more than south which means the forces are not equal.
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a partial quote only
I tried the stack setup before and had no luck so this time I am using the 4 magnet
setup in repel mode "the Magnet Force shielding 2 design"
Norman
When using the two magnet stacks setup, this is the Magnet Force shielding 1 design,
NOT the the Magnet Force shielding 2 design (as you stated above).
Magnet force shielding 1, is also the title of this topic.
Here is one of CITFTA'S videos (short 4 minutes)
@
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHHVrQRby9A&t=174s
NOTE...
CITFTA's magnet POLARITY MATCHING is well and correctly labeled in that video,
but that may be just about the the only thing that IS correct in the video.
Leedskalnin is INCORRECT, in general, N to N or S to S repelling force is the same,
unless there is some defect or inconsistency in the magnets used.
PS
If CIFTA had positioned his magnets as all N faces, the POLARITY MATCHING
would be the same.
ie.
1. Each pole at the top of a magnet stack is repelling the pole on the top of the
other magnet stack.
2. Each pole at the bottom of a magnet stack is repelling the pole on the bottom
of the other magnet stack.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
3. Each pole at the TOP of a magnet stack has the opposite force of the TOP of other
magnet stack in relationship to the shield magnet (if the one repels then the other attracts).
4. Each pole at the BOTTOM of a magnet stack has the opposite force of the BOTTOM of other
magnet stack in relationship to the shield magnet (if the one repels then the other attracts).
There is a lot of force present (see video).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHHVrQRby9A&t=174s
Rigid sliding tracks are a must.
If you don't have them, I don't recommend trying the set up.
PS
I should add...
CITFTA, my for gratitude for the time and effort spent and for the quality of your
builds.
best wishes
floor
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partial quote
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
When the shielding magnet is positioned / optimized (up and down) for
VERY NEAR TO ZERO INPUT AGAINST MAGNETIC FORCE
during insertion and / or removal...
There is a repulsion force present (at the distal range of travel) while the shield
magnet is in place. This force gives rise to the need for an INPUT in order to return
the out put magnet to its start position.
but...
That force reverses direction (changes to attraction) as the OUTPUT magnet becomes
near to the shield magnet.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
When the device is operated such that the output travel range is limited to around 5/8
of an inch, output occurs when the shield is removed and then again when the
shield is restored.
There is a repulsion force present (at the distal range of travel OF THE OUTPUT MAGNET)
while the shield magnet is in place. This force gives rise to the need for an INPUT in order
to return the out put magnet to its start position.
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@ Norman6538
Leedskalnin has said that north or south magnets push more than south which means the forces are not equal.
again no / not that I am aware of...
but in general...
Attraction forces are dominant over repelling forces when both are at close distance.
Repelling forces are dominant over attracting forces when both are at far distance.
At some range of distance between near and far they are equal.
That neutral / balanced range of distance varies in one given and particular kind of
magnet arrangement from, some other given and particular kind of arrangement.
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Excerpt from page 152 of the magnet basics PDF.
@ https://overunity.com/18511/floors-magnets-explained/dlattach/attach/175992/
beginning of the quote
In some circumstances, we find magnetic attractions are greater than repulsions. This is the case
when an unmagnetized or nearly unmagnetized iron object is attracted to a permanent magnet.
In some circumstances, two permanent magnets will stick together like face to like face, N to N or
S to S. This occurs when a powerful neodymium magnet is brought into proximity with a much
weaker ceramic type magnet. At a certain distance the magnets are powerfully repelled, but as
they are brought nearer, a sudden change occurs and the two magnets become attracted and
stick to each other, like pole to like pole.
Under other conditions, I have found a magnet's repulsion to be greater than attraction.
Using a permanent ceramic magnet at a fixed distance (15 inches) from the center of a magnetic compass. The magnet was orbited from due magnetic south of the compass to 50 degrees off,
in 9 increments of 5.5 degree while a single pole faced the compass. At each 5.5 degree
increments the needle deflection was noted. Average deflection by attraction was 2.2 degrees. Average deflection by repulsion was 4.6 degrees. The test was repeated using a similar magnet. The average deflections were 4.2 degrees by attraction and 8.6 by repulsion. The magnets each measure 3/8 by 7/8 by 1 7/8 inches. Poles are on the broad faces.
In yet other conditions the difference between attracting force and repelling force is negligible.
One cause of the difference between attractions and repulsions is as follows.
When two magnet are facing like pole to like pole, each magnet is exerting a force which is to
cause the magnetic domains in the other magnet to rotate toward a reversed polar direction.
So reversed, those domains would be aligned with the other magnet's polar orientation. If a domain within a magnet is completely reversed, that magnet is permanently damaged /
weakened.
If instead of a complete reversal of direction, only a partial deflection has occurred, then in the absence of the other magnet the domains may spring back to their original orientations and the magnet is unharmed.
end of the quote
edit / addition here
This might be described as if while at near distances, each magnet is acting to either,
de-magnetize or further magnetize the other magnet. Note this is a physical change in
the actual magnets their selves.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
A couple of other reasons for the difference.
1. Especially when using a magnet in which its N and S poles are near to one another
(example.. wafer magnets with N and S poles on the broad faces).
In interactions with another magnet, the wafer magnet's own N S poles may be nearer to one another than they are to either of the other magnet's poles. A SELF SHUNTING will cause the force
from the wafer magnet to diminish rapidly with distance.
If instead of a wafer magnet, a long bar magnet is interacting , (with its poles at the ends)
the magnetic force will diminish less rapidly with distance than in the case of the wafer magnet.
The force diminishment per change in distance from a long bar magnet can be surprisingly
gradual.
2. Back side faces of thin magnets may become interactive to other thin magnets at close magnet proximity.
For a demonstration see this vid @ https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7f0md2
That's all for now.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
floor
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MagnetForceShield 1
@
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9
and
MagnetForceShield 2 06 2 2021 ( sorry, video should be labeled as MagnetForceShield 1 06 2 2021
@
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x81ld01
best wishes
floor
PS
notice that the divide / junction between the two magnets combined on edge,
in repulsion (as the shielding / shunting magnet) are not the same in the two videos.
in one video the junction is vertical, in the other video it is horizontal.
also
My shield magnets were not well matched in some of the test I ran. This profoundly
effects outcomes / can cause bad results, especially when that junction is horizontal.
-
continued
partial quote
1. Especially when using a magnet in which its N and S poles are near to one another
(example.. wafer magnets with N and S poles on the broad faces).
In interactions with another magnet, the wafer magnet's own N S poles may be nearer to one another than they are to either of the other magnet's poles. A SELF SHUNTING will cause the force
from the wafer magnet to diminish rapidly with distance.
If instead of a wafer magnet, a long bar magnet is interacting , (with its poles at the ends)
the magnetic force will diminish less rapidly with distance than in the case of the wafer magnet.
The force diminishment per change in distance from a long bar magnet can be surprisingly
gradual.
The above describes a behavior, but does not explain why attraction or repulsion is
dominant in a given condition. It is incomplete in that context.
So
In continuation...
This is a builders board, and I might already be straying too far from that description
and purpose.
In these descriptions of magnet interaction, I generally try to stay away from the theoretical
and instead focus on things which I can demonstrate and measure. This is one of the reasons
I tend to avoid descriptions through the use of the convention of magnetic lines of force and
magnetic flux density. I'm not going to make an exception here.
However, I will work on this continuation and at some point, present it in the
"Floors Magnets Explained" topic.
floor
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@ Norman
In this design ...
While the shield is out, and the output magnet is repelled ....
With an average force of 400 grams, over a travel distance of 2 inches
this is 800 inch grams of work or work units (not converted to joules).
This is output.
Two inputs, each at < 5 grams average force over two inches of travel (shield in and out)
is equal to 10 inch grams or work units.... times 2, or 20 inch grams of work input.
Ratio is 20 in to 800 out.
This isn't even counting the additional work output, which is present as the output
magnet's travel in attraction while the shield magnet is in between...
20:800 or 2:80 or 1:40
probably 1:60 if the other output (attraction) were included.
So...
a 1 to 30 ratio is a conservative estimation... probably ...
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Thanks Floor, that number is fantastic not you need to extract that work by letting the magnets move apart...
But did you account for further weaker?
The work out is not linear.
Norman
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re post / slight mod. of first post in this topic
This design goes back to 2017.
Some folks are well aware of it, since that time.
Others missed out on it.
Closer stronger, farther weaker...
out put 1 (repulsion)
740 g at 1/2 inch
700 g at 9/16
650 g at 5/8
600 g at 5/8
550 g at 11/16
500 g at 3/4
450 g at 13/16
400 g at 7/8
350 g at 31/32
300 g at 1 1/16
250 g at 1 3/16
200 g at 1 5/16
150 g at 1 5/8
100 g at 1 3/4
50 g at 2 9/16
input 1 shield moved out < 5 grams by 2 inches
input 2 shield moved in < 5 grams by 2 inches
out put 2 (attraction)
Return of out put magnets to starting position is also an out put and gives
a net gain in energy as mechanical work.
inputs
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x81ld01
4 1/2 minutes long
output 1
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9
7 minutes long
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Thanks Floor for the great numbers.
My spread sheet shows OU about 40 which is fantastic...
Now get those magnets harnessed up and you have OU that can be seriously cascaded.
Ie the output can drive multiple equal setups.
And get some replications like the Naudin lifter project.
My goal would be to have a table top sized toy that all can see.....
move 1 by hand and several others move the same amount..
CONGRATS
Norman
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Thanks Norman.
I'm working on / neatly finished with the set up / and new demonstration video.
No shaky camera ! Good audio.
The test bed now has two sets of linear slide rails.
The shield or shunting magnet setup as well as the output magnet setup, each
have their / its own linear bearings and rails.
These are at 90 deg to each other.
No disassembling then reinstalling the magnets for the demonstration is needed.
best wishes
floor
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Floor are you sure the mags will separate 2 inches. I'd think more like 1 but that would still be
OU 20....
Norman
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@ Norman
Its actually quite a bit more than two inches (shield removed and in repelling mode).
I'm being very conservative in my claims.
Check out CITFTA's video again
@ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHHVrQRby9A&t=174s
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But cifta is moving the stator.
Norman
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Floor are you sure the mags will separate 2 inches. I'd think more like 1 but that would still be
OU 20....
Norman
The reason I posted that cifta video is that it gives some idea as to the force present
at 2 inches and more, of the output magnet from the fixed magnet when the shield
magnet is not in place.
... ... ... ... ... ... ...
But cifta is moving the stator.
Norman
Stator ?
Fixed, output and shield (or shunting magnet). But no stator.
YES...
CIFTA is causing the movement of the shield magnet by manipulating
the output magnet. I think this was just something that intrigued cifta
at the time. He probably wasn't thinking about how this might confuse
viewers as to the correct functioning of the design ?
He did good builds in some ways and I don't want to knock it, but they fell short
in terms of the degree of precision of magnet motion / magnet positioning required.
I'm fairly certain that cifta himself stated that he considered his build's precision as
being probably short of what was required (in at least one of his videos).
Also, I think it is pretty clear that cifta was just beginning to understanding the design's
operation at that time.
But he does have his magnet polarities correct and the overall of the motions
are all there (in the present cifta video).
PS
The shield magnet WILL experience considerable / undesirable lateral forces when the
alignments are not precise enough (as in the present cifta video).
Also, something akin to what I call "Luke's force" is always present in the device, EVEN WHEN
polar orientation, magnet positions and precision ARE all correct. But that "Luke's force" is
taken at right angles to the track sliding directions and therefore does not manifest as an
energy expenditure.
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Thanks Floor, that makes it very clear. I expect to get something done this week...
I hope to hear from Cifta soon.....but what bothers me is why Gotoluc and others are not on
this but I know we all get busy and have limited time. My problem is the rigid construction required. As of now it looks like only 3 or 4 are interested. That is pathetic.
Norman
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It is true that rigid and precise construction are required.
After I do this next presentation, maybe I will put together a materials list
and complete drawings and instructions topic ?
regards
floor
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There are many more open source builders for this project
I believe people are a bit spent or shellshocked from the world
Around us ATM
That being said
One good anomaly will ring a bell to wake/bring the open source builders to the call !
( and I will knock on many doors to spread the word !)
With Tremendous gratitude
Chet K
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Little update.
Thank you Ramset.
A photo of my test bench.
I'm epoxy gluing the fixed and output magnets, each to its own fixture / mount.
Less clutter / no clamps and also this gives increased precision.
Cleaning up and organizing the test bench / area.
best wishes
floor
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I finally got a wheel together enough to see that there is no significant sticky spot and this is the real deal....But its too ugly for a photo....
So guys go for it.....But due to the rigid construction and precision and the opposite angles it will take a while to finish....
I just wish it could be scaled down but smaller magnets have less power and tolerance has to be much closer. I wish Butch Lafonte could see this...
Norman
-
@ all readers
https://overunity.com/18928/magnetic-force-neutralization-method/msg560038/#msg560038
floor
-
You already have a big winner I recommend you stick with that.
and your have 2 of us on this list that have seen but not fully measured the OU.
Unfortunately the smaller magnets do not have enough power to see this force.
Norman
-
Bonjour Sol,
Sujet très intéressant...
Juste une question avant d'aller plus loin si vous acceptez de me répondre.
Utilisez-vous des aimants en ferrite ou en néodyme ?
A++
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@ Norman
The link (repeated) below is for a possible / later application to the "Magnetic force shield 1" design.
Thanks. Don't worry I'm not modifying the "Magnetic force shield 1" at this time.
@ all readers
https://overunity.com/18928/magnetic-force-neutralization-method/msg560038/#msg560038
floor
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Bonjour Sol,
Sujet très intéressant...
Juste une question avant d'aller plus loin si vous acceptez de me répondre.
Utilisez-vous des aimants en ferrite ou en néodyme ?
A++
Bonjour
ferrite magnets
However, the designs are not intended to be limited to the use
of ferrite magnets only.
google translated
aimants en ferrite
Cependant, les conceptions ne sont pas destinées à être limitées à l'utilisation
d'aimants en ferrite seulement.
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@ all readers
I am not at this time asking for replications. Any one who
wishes to build one, may of course do as they wish.
Please understand.
1. I am not an expert nor an authority on magnets.
2. To the best of my knowledge, this design is, other than its presentation
@ the O.U. forum, novel. It is the responsibility of any one selling it, to verify this
for their self / avoid infringements.
3. If it is in fact novel, then, this design is open source.
4. If you build it, please do not refer to your build as a replication unless
it is very, very, near to identical to what I have presented.
5. You may of course build what ever you like.
Just don't call it a replication, even if it has very minor variations from the present
design.
You may refer to it as a variation or modification of the design. But if you call it a
replication and if in my opinion, it is in fact a variation, I may consider it as a false
representation. Please do not misrepresent design variations as "a floor design" and
so on.
6. Don't present your build in this topic, nor in the "Floors MMM-2 builders board"
unless you have presented it (at least in part) in the main O.U. forum.
If you wish to start a topic in the "Floors MMM-2 builders board" contact me for permission / my
vetting, of that topic / build. This is in the opening statement for this board
@ https://overunity.com/18496/un-hassled-exploration/
Read it ?
Please read and understand the terms of use of the O.U. forum as well as the terms of using
this, the "Floors MMM-2 builders board"
best wishes
floor
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Floor are you sure the mags will separate 2 inches. I'd think more like 1 but that would still be
OU 20....
Norman
Sorry. You are correct more like 1 inch (shield out) in order to still have a second
out put (by attraction) once the shield is re installed ? I'm hazy on it right now.
Looking at several designs in a short span, gets me mixed up to sometimes.
Unless 2 or more units were combined (series ouputs). In which case input to output
ratio is unchanged, but longer output strokes will be easier to efficiently utilize.
Also
I need to finish / button up a home repair project I've got opened up right now.
-
An update (not major)
Short video 5 min 32 sec.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x84i5ns
floor
-
General information
The testing or measuring of these various magnet interactions sets generally
follows along these lines.
Testing hand held magnets, just by feel
Mounting one or more of the magnets used in the set, on a sliding track,
then testing by feel.
Taking a few measurements in large increments of force and distance.
This gives a rough picture of the over all force to distance curves that are present.
A first set of measurements of each action.
Some math as force averaging, additions and subtractions and possibly
conversions necessary to convert to joules etcetera.
Final overall totals of inputs to outputs and the overall ratio of in to out.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
The above is all preliminary.
If everything is looking good...
Generally...
Check parameters, accuracy of the weight scales, accuracy of the levelness
of the rail system, accuracy of any alignments in terms of 90 degree alignments.
Each force and distance measurement is repeated five times and logged individually.
The calculations are done and checked.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
This can amount to from as few as 40 or 50 measurements or up to as many as
400 measurements.
Note. I do not always follow through to this degree of rigor.
for example in the "Magnet shear to direct pull work ratio" topic,
I did not follow up with this degree of rigor.
I was lacking the energy and motivation to do so on that day. Otherwise
I would have also presented those logs.
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"Closer stronger further weaker" wins again. My tests show about 200% for 3/4 x 1 inch magnets and for the domino sized it is barely over 100%. I used two drawer slides to get the linear movement instead of the arc of a bicycle wheel. My results do not warrant the waste of a photo upload...
I find it quite interesting that Floor has not recently followed up with any measurements.
Therefore I suggest that Floor......... and I leave that for you to fill in the blanks...
"I'm from Mo. - show me."
Norman
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@ Norman6538
This PDF, ( Kedron Eden Project) says that using magnets of smaller dimensions is best.
Magnetic force drops off with distance. Two magnets of large physical dimensions will not
interact with one another in nearly the same manner as will two small magnets.
https://overunity.com/18551/magnet-shear-to-direct-pull-work-ratio/msg560757/#msg560757
This might not seem reasonable, and I myself, do not understand fully enough to offer
a good explanation. All I can say of that, at present is, simply put...
The force from a 20 mm x 5 mm x 5 mm neo magnet (poles at the ends) will drop off
as the distance from a pole increases.
Take a force to distance measurement at 20 mm from a pole (magnet's length) , and compare
it to the force to distance measured at 5 mm.
Do the same with a 40 mm x 5 mm x 5 mm magnet (poles at the ends).
The length dimension is doubled, but the field does not extend to twice as far as does
the field of the 20mm long magnet.
At magnet's length (40 mm) from a pole, the force will not be as strong as the force from
the 20 mm magnet was, at 20 mm (magnet's length).
This is a simplistic example but with other shapes of magnets the amount the
field strength decreases with distance can be even more dramatic.
As I said, the / my explanation is a simplistic one.
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I distinguish between 3 magnetic fields. These distinctions are in terms of the
distance of the space between two interacting magnets.
When using CERAMIC MAGNETS there are distinct changes in the behaviors
of the magnets at these distances.
1. The very near field is 3/16 of an inch or less.
2. The near field is from 3/16 inch to 1 inch
3. The far field is from 1 to two inches (and beyond).
4. These definitions / distinctions / distances, are by necessity, a GENERALIZATION,
especially in regard to the defining as to what constitutes the near and far fields.
In the very near field...
Magnetic forces may be great enough to cause substantial reorientation of many of the
magnetic domains within (especially those domains which are near the surface) the magnets.
This causes a dramatic change in the magnetic force available.
Increase in the rate of ....
the change in the magnitude of force per the change in increment of distance
is especially present in magnet interactions which are attractions. It is a little less dramatic
in repelling forces.
A kind of shielding or exclusion of other fields
which originate from the back sides of and / or the distal ends of magnets
seems also to occur. This is perhaps due (at least in part) to the extremeness of the field
density in the very near field ?
Attracting fields pull each the other, toward greater field density. Repelling forces push
each the other, toward a spreading of the fields.
Attraction forces dominate over repulsion forces in the very near field.
The ratio of force change to change in distance approaches linear in its curvature
(as drawn upon a graph).
... ... ... ... ... ... ...
Also, but at any distances ...
Attracting forces are more distinctly directional. The direction of the vector is more
focused / narrow.
Repelling forces may easily fall into balance with an externally applied force.
i.e. ...
When in repulsion, one magnet can suspend / float above another / find a balance
against gravity.
Attracting forces are nearly impossible to balance. EDIT (not repelling)
It is nearly impossible to suspend / hang one magnet below another by attraction
forces / find a balance against gravity.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
The bottom line in respect to the "magnet force shield 1" design is that I find I must
restrict its operational parameters to within the near range / eliminate the very near and
also the far range, in order that it may still function with a net gain in work input to work
output (5/8 inch output magnet travel).
It is so tempting to go for the maximum force / longest output strokes but it just doesn't
pan out to O.U. in those conditions.
It is only in the mid distance ranges, that a zero work input for shield insertion and removal
has been achievable.
i.e.
1/8 to 3/16 inch between shield and fixed magnet and 1/8 to 3/16 inch between
shield and output magnet.
Out put magnet travel range limited to around 5/8 to 7/8 inch.
... ... ...
progress.
I am next, installing pulleys for the shield cross slide (to hang weight incrementally on).
best wishes
floor
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Update ...
A modified roller from a printer, to make a pulley, for the cross slide unit.
I had to turn the pulley shaft down on each end, (on a lathe) to make the
shaft fit the two, tiny, ball bearings sets.
The two metal brackets holding the pulley, are from the same printer and
are also modified.
JPG attached below..
P.S.
I didn't make two pulleys... There fore I'll need to remove the pulley and
mount it at the other end of the cross slide, for shield removal measurements.
CORRECTION / EDIT..
Actually, I can pull the shield magnet completely through. No need to remount it
in order measure the shield removal work !
CORRECTION / EDIT... again ...
Magnets would then be too close to / influenced by, cross slide rails.
There fore I will need to remove the pulley and mount it at the other end of
the cross slide, for shield removal measurements.