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Author Topic: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1  (Read 6568 times)

Offline Floor

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2021, 05:21:57 PM »
partial quote

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
When the shielding magnet is positioned / optimized (up and down) for
        VERY NEAR TO ZERO INPUT AGAINST  MAGNETIC FORCE
during insertion and / or removal...   

There is a repulsion force present (at the distal range of travel) while the shield
magnet is in place.  This force gives rise to the need for an INPUT in order to return
the out put magnet to its start position.
              but...
That force reverses direction (changes to attraction) as the OUTPUT magnet becomes
near to the shield magnet.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
When the device is operated such that the output travel range is limited to around 5/8
of an inch, output occurs when the shield is removed and then again when the
shield is restored.

There is a repulsion force present (at the distal range of travel OF THE OUTPUT MAGNET)
while the shield magnet is in place.  This force gives rise to the need for an INPUT in order
to return the out put magnet to its start position.

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2021, 05:21:57 PM »

Offline Floor

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2021, 11:44:41 PM »
@ Norman6538

Leedskalnin has said that north or south magnets push more than south which means the forces are not equal.

 again no / not that I am aware of...

 but in general...

Attraction forces are dominant over repelling forces when both are at close distance.
Repelling forces are dominant over attracting forces when both are at far distance.

At some range of distance between near and far they are equal.
That neutral  / balanced range of distance varies in one given and particular kind of
magnet arrangement from,  some other given and particular kind of arrangement.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2021, 04:10:25 PM by Floor »

Offline Floor

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2021, 04:31:40 PM »
Excerpt from page 152 of the magnet basics PDF.
@ https://overunity.com/18511/floors-magnets-explained/dlattach/attach/175992/
   beginning of the quote
In some circumstances, we find magnetic attractions are greater than repulsions. This is the case
when an unmagnetized or nearly unmagnetized iron object is attracted to a permanent magnet.

In some circumstances, two permanent magnets will stick together like face to like face, N to N or
S to S. This occurs when a powerful neodymium magnet is brought into proximity with a much
weaker ceramic type magnet. At a certain distance the magnets are powerfully repelled, but as
they are brought nearer, a sudden change occurs and the two magnets become attracted and
stick to each other, like pole to like pole.

Under other conditions, I have found a magnet's repulsion to be greater than attraction.

Using a permanent ceramic magnet at a fixed distance (15 inches) from the center of a magnetic compass. The magnet was orbited from due magnetic south of the compass to 50 degrees off,
in 9 increments of 5.5 degree while a single pole faced the compass. At each 5.5 degree
increments the needle deflection was noted. Average deflection by attraction was 2.2 degrees. Average deflection by repulsion was 4.6 degrees. The test was repeated using a similar magnet. The average deflections were 4.2 degrees by attraction and 8.6 by repulsion. The magnets each measure 3/8 by 7/8 by 1 7/8 inches. Poles are on the broad faces.

In yet other conditions the difference between attracting force and repelling force is negligible.
One cause of the difference between attractions and repulsions is as follows.

When two magnet are facing like pole to like pole, each magnet is exerting a force which is to
cause the magnetic domains in the other magnet to rotate toward a reversed polar direction.
So reversed, those domains would be aligned with the other magnet's polar orientation. If a domain within a magnet is completely reversed, that magnet is permanently damaged /
weakened.

If instead of a complete reversal of direction, only a partial deflection has occurred, then in the absence of the other magnet the domains may spring back to their original orientations and the magnet is unharmed.
  end of the quote

edit / addition here

This might be described as if while at near distances, each magnet is acting to either,
de-magnetize or further magnetize the other magnet.  Note this is a physical change in
the actual magnets their selves.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
A couple of other reasons for the difference.

1. Especially when using a magnet in which its N and S poles are near to one another
(example.. wafer magnets with N and S poles on the broad faces).

In interactions with another magnet,  the wafer magnet's own N S poles may be nearer to one another than they are to either of the other magnet's poles.  A SELF SHUNTING will cause the force
from the wafer magnet to diminish rapidly with distance.

If instead of a wafer magnet, a long bar magnet is interacting , (with its poles at the ends)
the magnetic force will diminish less rapidly with distance than in the case of the wafer magnet.
The force diminishment per change in distance from a long bar magnet can be surprisingly   
gradual.

2. Back side faces of thin magnets may become interactive to other thin magnets at close magnet  proximity.

For a demonstration see this vid @ https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7f0md2

That's all for now.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

        floor
« Last Edit: June 29, 2021, 03:54:37 PM by Floor »

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2021, 04:31:40 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2021, 06:49:15 PM »
MagnetForceShield 1
         @
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9
   and
MagnetForceShield 2 06 2 2021 ( sorry, video should be labeled as MagnetForceShield 1 06 2 2021
         @
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x81ld01

              best wishes
                          floor

       PS
     notice that the divide / junction between the two magnets combined on edge,
     in repulsion (as the shielding / shunting  magnet) are not the same in the two videos.
     in one video the junction is vertical, in the other video it is horizontal.
                 also
    My shield magnets were not well matched in some of the test I ran.  This profoundly
   effects outcomes / can cause bad results, especially when that junction is horizontal.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2021, 01:24:00 AM by Floor »

Offline Floor

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2021, 04:34:03 PM »
continued
   partial quote

               
1. Especially when using a magnet in which its N and S poles are near to one another
(example.. wafer magnets with N and S poles on the broad faces).

In interactions with another magnet,  the wafer magnet's own N S poles may be nearer to one another than they are to either of the other magnet's poles.  A SELF SHUNTING will cause the force
from the wafer magnet to diminish rapidly with distance.

If instead of a wafer magnet, a long bar magnet is interacting , (with its poles at the ends)
the magnetic force will diminish less rapidly with distance than in the case of the wafer magnet.
The force diminishment per change in distance from a long bar magnet can be surprisingly   
gradual.


The above describes a behavior, but does not explain why attraction or repulsion is
dominant in a given condition. It is incomplete in that context.
                      So
In continuation...

This is a builders board, and I might already be straying too far from that description
and purpose. 

In these descriptions of magnet interaction, I generally try to stay away from the theoretical
and instead focus on things which I can demonstrate and measure. This is one of the reasons
I tend to avoid descriptions through the use of the convention of magnetic lines of force and
magnetic flux density.  I'm not going to make an exception here.

However, I will work on this continuation and at some point, present it in the
"Floors Magnets Explained" topic.

   floor

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2021, 04:34:03 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2021, 09:47:56 AM »
@ Norman

In this design ...

While the shield is out, and the output magnet is repelled ....
With an average force of 400 grams, over a travel distance of 2 inches
this is 800 inch grams of work or work units (not converted to joules).
This is output.

Two inputs, each at < 5 grams average force over two inches of travel (shield in and out)
is equal to 10 inch grams or work units....    times 2, or 20 inch grams of work input.

Ratio is 20 in to 800 out.

This isn't even counting the additional work output, which is present as the output
magnet's travel in attraction while the shield magnet is in between...

20:800 or 2:80 or 1:40 
probably 1:60 if the other output (attraction) were included.

    So...
          a 1 to 30 ratio is a conservative estimation... probably ...

Offline norman6538

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2021, 11:28:18 AM »
Thanks Floor, that number is fantastic not you need to extract that work by letting the magnets move apart...
But did you account for further weaker?
The work out is not linear.

Norman

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2021, 11:28:18 AM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2021, 03:36:15 PM »
re post / slight mod. of first post in this topic


This design goes back to 2017.
Some folks are well aware of it, since that time.
Others missed out on it.


Closer stronger, farther weaker...
out put 1 (repulsion)

740 g at 1/2 inch
700 g at 9/16
650 g at 5/8
600 g at 5/8
550 g at 11/16
500 g at 3/4
450 g at 13/16
400 g at 7/8
350 g at 31/32
300 g at 1 1/16
250 g at 1 3/16
200 g at 1 5/16
150 g at 1 5/8
100 g at 1 3/4
50 g at 2 9/16

input 1 shield moved out < 5 grams by 2 inches
input 2 shield moved in < 5 grams by 2 inches

out put 2 (attraction)
Return of out put magnets to starting position is also an out put and gives
a net gain in energy as mechanical work.
 
             inputs
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x81ld01
      4 1/2 minutes long

            output 1
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9
      7 minutes long


Offline norman6538

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2021, 10:52:08 PM »
Thanks Floor for the great numbers.
My spread sheet shows OU about 40 which is fantastic...

Now get those magnets harnessed up and you have OU that can be seriously cascaded.
Ie the output can drive multiple equal setups.
And get some replications like the Naudin lifter project.
My goal would be to have a table top sized toy that all can see.....
move 1 by hand and several others move the same amount..
CONGRATS
Norman

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2021, 10:52:08 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2021, 12:45:34 AM »
Thanks Norman.

I'm working on / neatly finished with the set up / and new demonstration video.

No shaky camera ! Good audio.

The test bed now has two sets of linear slide rails.
The shield or shunting magnet setup as well as the output magnet setup, each
have their / its own linear bearings and rails.
These are at 90 deg to each other.
No disassembling then reinstalling the magnets for the demonstration is needed.

   best wishes
         floor

Offline norman6538

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2021, 01:08:32 AM »
Floor are you sure the mags will separate 2 inches. I'd think more like 1 but that would  still be
OU 20....

Norman

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2021, 01:08:32 AM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2021, 01:32:46 AM »
@ Norman

Its actually quite a bit more than two inches (shield removed and in repelling mode).

I'm being very conservative in my claims.

Check out CITFTA's  video again
@ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHHVrQRby9A&t=174s


Offline norman6538

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2021, 02:17:12 AM »
But cifta is moving the stator.

Norman

Offline Floor

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2021, 08:39:37 AM »
Floor are you sure the mags will separate 2 inches. I'd think more like 1 but that would  still be
OU 20....

Norman

The reason I posted that cifta video is that it gives some idea as to the force present
at 2 inches and more, of the output magnet from the fixed magnet when the shield
magnet is not in place.
... ... ... ... ... ... ...

But cifta is moving the stator.

Norman

Stator ?

Fixed, output and shield (or shunting magnet).  But no stator.

   YES...
CIFTA is causing the movement of the shield magnet by manipulating
the output magnet. I think this was just something that intrigued cifta
at the time.  He probably wasn't thinking about how this might confuse
viewers as to the correct functioning of the design ?

He did good builds in some ways and I don't want to knock it, but they fell short
in terms of the degree of precision of magnet motion / magnet positioning required.
 
I'm fairly certain that cifta himself stated that he considered his build's precision as
being probably short of what was required (in at least one of his videos).

Also, I think it is pretty clear that cifta was just beginning to understanding the design's
operation at that time.
 
But he does have his magnet polarities correct and the overall of the motions
are all there (in the present cifta video).

PS
The shield magnet WILL experience considerable / undesirable lateral forces when the
alignments are not precise enough (as in the present cifta video). 

Also, something akin to what I call "Luke's force" is always present in the device, EVEN WHEN
polar orientation, magnet positions and precision ARE all correct.  But that "Luke's force" is
taken at right angles to the track sliding directions and therefore does not manifest as an
energy expenditure. 


Offline norman6538

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Re: O.U. Magnet force shielding 1
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2021, 11:08:28 AM »
Thanks Floor, that makes it very clear. I expect to get something done this week...
I hope to hear from Cifta soon.....but what bothers me is why Gotoluc and others are not on
this but I know we all get busy and have limited time. My problem is the rigid construction required. As of now it looks like only 3 or 4 are interested. That is pathetic.

Norman

 

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