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builders board => Floors MMM-2 builders board => Topic started by: Floor on May 13, 2021, 11:42:13 PM
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This is a continuation from the TD replications topic.
floor
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I'm not set to do measurements yet, but I'm getting closer.
2 more photos attached below.
floor
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This is what I'm getting set up to do measurements of.
floor
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There are 3 input motions. Basically the output magnet is walked around
3 sides of a square or rectangle, the fourth side the "output side", walks itself.
one side is removal... input
next it moves along to the far end while outside the magnetic field... 0 input
against magnetic forces.
next is in insertion... input
In the lower right corner of the drawings (above)....
Written in green letters....
from Position 2....
The output magnet is removed / pulled in the direction of from out of the page
(a near zero input) < 5 grams force
The output magnet is now directly in front of position 2...
How far in front ? Until it is outside of any significant influence of the magnetic field...
Then it is moved to the right....
This is the zero input Norman6538 was inquiring about...
Now the input magnet is directly in front of position 1...
Insert it back over the magnet array (back into the magnetic field).
(a near zero input) < 5 grams force
Ready for the output stroke....
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So then,
1.
Self quote
"How far in front ? Until it is outside of any significant influence of the magnetic field"
End of the quote
I measure the distance until it is outside of any significant influence of the magnetic
field as being 1 1/4 inches.
2.
How far is the "? at least a few inches" from the bottom left section of the drawings.
I still don't fully know its limitations. In this build the track is 6 and 7/8 inches long.
However not nearly all of that 6 7/8 distance is available as out put travel.
floor
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6 magnets in the track..
See attached jpg below
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Approximate dimensions.
JPG attached below.
But with 6 magnet track length.
I will adjust / trial and error the dimensions.
floor
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A design which is of this type will be suitable only for
very permanent magnets like neodymium magnets
or..
if some other magnet compositions are found, which are
highly resistant to demagnetization.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
I'm dialing this test in.
As should be expected. A change in one aspect of the
interactions affects other interactions.
It's a trial and error process.
The device, when the track is 6 magnets long, has a lull in
the output force near the center of the output stroke.
The force to distance curve of the output magnet's travel
is different at the two extremes of that travel.
It is not a simple force to distance curve.
As Norman 6538 points out...
In order for any of these designs to O.U. cascade,
output must exceed the input by > 2 x.
Later on ,,,
floor
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As an aside, but very related...
This magnet arrangement is very nice.
7 minute video..
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x81a9z2
floor
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3 minute video (previously linked to)
3 magnets in the track instead of 6.
I misstate (was expecting) in the video that there are sticky spots
when the sliding magnet is very near the track magnets.
but there are
No sticky spots, except when the sliding magnet snags
on one of the track magnet edges) in the 3 magnet track
There is Consistently, a force in the desired travel direction
@
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x80z9wr ... 3 magnet track
however
There are sticky spots in the 6 magnet track,
at the 2nd 3rd and 4th junctions.
There is no sticky spot at either the 1st or the 5th magnet junctions.
@
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x81a9z2 ... 6 magnet track
This all makes good sense.
It looks as though, when using this particular design and magnets, I may
need to limit the track length to 3 or 4 or 5 magnets ?
We will see / trial and error.
Point ?
To be able to freely insert / extract the output magnet from over the track ( near the ends),
while maximizing work done in the output magnet's travel over the track.
floor
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I'm collecting data.
Next...
I need to do a series of illustrations at this point.
Because I'm looking into / examining so many variations and variables
at this point, the videos are only marginally helpful and / or even
potentially confusing.
also
This is not a finished and polished product.
The builds, trials, theories and even sometimes observations
are largely on the fly. It's often a sloppy process, which I try to
clean up and organize, at its end.
Your bearing with the shaky / off target camera and sometimes even
misstatements and so on is appreciated.
best wishes
floor
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@ Lota
I removed your post..
resized you jifs and
Moved it to here
@
https://overunity.com/18867/lotas-kozeka-build/msg557711/#msg557711
floor
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It looks like this design might evolve into some kind of hybrid of Luc's force..
a variation of what might be considered as related to a V gates...
and
an attraction / repulsion balancing, right angle escape from the magnetic field.
cool, some thing new
floor
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Consider...
Why is circular motion important in motors, generators and machinery
in general ?
Perhaps the most significant reason is so that momentum can be, to a
large degree preserved.
... ... ... ... ... ... ...
It requires energy expenditure to accelerate an object.
Reciprocating elements within machinery, such as the pistons in an internal
combustion engine, start, accelerate, stop and then accelerate again, over and over.
This is one of the reasons why electric motors and turbine engines can be more
efficient than piston engines.
... ... ... ... ... ...
The elements of the expenditure of energy to cause acceleration are.
1. The mass of the accelerated object.
2. The speed to which the object is accelerated.
The more mass an engine piston has, the more energy is required to accelerate it
to a given speed.
This is why engine pistons are made to be as light in weight (low mass) as possible.
... ... ... ... ... ...
Because permanent magnets are not made of light weight materials
(such as aluminum alloys) they are heavy for their size.
There fore
The energy wasted in accelerating them, over and over, due to a necessity
for reciprocating motion might be very large.
BUT ONLY IF THAT RECIPROCATING MOTION OCCURS AT HIGH SPEED.
... ... ... ... ... ... ...
One might think that high speed is necessary for the high production of
energy per unit of time (high power).
But low speed and high force will also produce high energy per unit of
time (high power).
... ... ... ... ... ...
The conversion of linear motion to high speed rotating motion, the use of fly wheels,
and the application of energy to work via rotating machinery (drills, wheels, gears)
may still be accomplished. But, after the energy conversion / production by the
magnetic forces.
floor
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Force/-s and their translation freedom,important : velocity/speed
In common we have by motor configuration and generator configuration only 1 orientation shaft side !
What differ double sided motor shaft with each shaft side a generator couple ?
https://www.zikodrive.com/ufaqs/difference-single-shaft-double-shaft-motors/
We have in common the split concept : one defines the stator ,the other the rotor !
What differ double rotor concept,their each (variable ?) fixed RPM in relation :
if stator/rotor 3000 RPM ,which relative velocity if rotor I 3000 RPM cw and rotor II 3000 RPM ccw ?
Doubling the (in relation/relative) velocity = ? times the force multiplying/amplifying output
For Lota ím Original,beschrieben:
Die Krafterhöhungsscheibe kann nur die Krafterhöhung erfüllen, wenn diese am Rand der Scheibe angetrieben wird und nicht mit der Achse.
Dieses System kann im KFZ angewandt werden, wie bei der Antriebsachse, vor oder hinter der Antriebswelle, oder vor dem Getriebe oder dahinter.
Dieses System kann auch bei Elektromotoren nach geschaltet werden.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/006515280/publication/DE4412700A1?q=pn%3DDE4412700A1 (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/006515280/publication/DE4412700A1?q=pn%3DDE4412700A1)
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For Lota as well
https://overunity.com/17070/all-magnet-motor-td-based/msg519616/#msg519616
Also please see LankaIV post on previous page.
regards
floor
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Here is what I found in all of the variations I tried of the "Luc's force"
designs.
All of my attempts to increase the output magnet travel distance beyond a length of
3 track magnets, resulted in no improvement of input to out put ratio.
Work done as insertion of, or removal of or both insertion and removal
of the output magnet from above the track magnets, was always adversely
affected by those increases in the track length.
While using a 3 magnet track length, and with the addition of 3 magnets offset
below ONE END of the track magnets, I was able to extract the output magnet
from above the track (with near zero work) when it was at either of two distinct
points along the track. However, output magnet travel was very limited in its
distance ( steep force fall off and shortness of travel).
While using a 6 magnet track length, and with the addition of 3 magnets offset
below BOTH ENDS of the track magnets, I was able to extract the output magnet
from above the track (with near zero work) when it was at the center point along
the track only. This caused less than 1/2 of the track length to be usable usable.
Free insertion and / or removal of the output magnet from above the track while
near to either track end, became no longer possible. No bueno.
Approaching or exiting the track at an angle allows output magnet travel over
nearly the entire length of the track. But no free insertion and or removal
of the output magnet, except for at one point, (the center of the track).
No bueno.
And so on.
But no worries. I just needed to get this off of my plate.
Next presentation is / will be so, so cool.
floor
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This one
@
https://overunity.com/18875/o-u-magnet-force-shielding-1/msg558059/#msg558059
is 30 X O.U.
floor
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Hello Floor,
You present this magnetic stack with shielding relatively "static/motionless" so I will analog motive present :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19660419&CC=US&NR=3247407A&KC=A
the wheel to see as the shield
Keep it well !
Sincere
OCWL
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Thanks Lanka
Tu tambien
@ All readers
This one
@
https://overunity.com/18875/o-u-magnet-force-shielding-1/msg558059/#msg558059
is 30 X O.U.
floor
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Tu tambien :o Merci beaucoup !
Mais in luso-galaico , North-America lusitanic denominations :
Canada (= wood stick) /Lavrador-Labrador (worker incl. Wuff-Wuff)/ "Sargasso" (algae) Sea,
você também
But I am only resident,not Portuguese !
Happy weekend wishing
OCWL
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Hello Floor,
You present this magnetic stack with shielding relatively "static/motionless" so I will analog motive present :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19660419&CC=US&NR=3247407A&KC=A
the wheel to see as the shield
Keep it well !
Sincere
OCWL
Similar idea here @
https://overunity.com/17736/permanent-magnets-and-coils-electricity-generation-design/msg521722/#msg521722
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Where is Floor? He has not been around since May. Is he sick?
I did some recent testing and I cannot get the magnets to balance without a sticky spot.
I have one more setup I will test before I give up.
This is what I will test.
https://overunity.com/18866/modified-gotoluc-design/msg557652/#msg557652
Norman
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Hello Norman6538
post from May 28, 2021
https://overunity.com/18866/modified-gotoluc-design/msg558055/#msg558055
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But this one
@
https://overunity.com/18875/o-u-magnet-f"orce-shielding-1/msg558059/#msg558059
is more mechanical work out than in or "O.U.".
floor
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Floor I can't find the work in/out - only the grams.
did I miss that?
Norman
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re posting / modified a little
Here is what I found in all of the variations I tried of the
Luc's force" design variations.
All of my attempts to increase the output magnet travel distance beyond a length of
3 track magnets, resulted in no improvement of input to out put ratio.
Work done as insertion of, or removal of or both insertion and removal
of the output magnet from above the track magnets, was always adversely
affected by those increases in the track length.
While using a 3 magnet track length, and with the addition of 3 magnets offset
below ONE END of the track magnets, I was able to extract the output magnet
from above the track (with near zero work) when it was at either of two distinct
points along the track. However, output magnet travel was very limited in its
distance ( steep force fall off and shortness of travel).
While using a 6 magnet track length, and with the addition of 3 magnets offset
below BOTH ENDS of the track magnets, I was able to extract the output magnet
from above the track (with near zero work) when it was at the center point along
the track only. This caused less than 1/2 of the track length to be usable usable.
Free insertion and / or removal of the output magnet from above the track while
near to either track end, became no longer possible. No bueno.
Approaching or exiting the track at an angle allows output magnet travel over
nearly the entire length of the track. But no free insertion and or removal
of the output magnet, except for at one point, (the center of the track).
No bueno.
And so on.
But no worries. I just needed to get this off of my plate.
Next presentation is / will be so, so cool.
floor
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For the magnet force shield 1 design ....
@
https://overunity.com/18875/o-u-magnet-force-shielding-1/msg558059/#msg558059